The "seamingly" obvious

[David S. Brownlee]

I'm a newbie on this site - so even after reading much I will be re-stating the obvious.

..but as a Midwestern hunter in my youth...I have shot many types of firearms at lots of things (even through tree branches)...and understand relative ballistics and how bullets change directions.

- The shot that brought blood on a bystander by the curb near the underpass could not have been a "tree" ricochet. A true ricochet that held anywhere near it's initial velocity would have had to bounced off a rock (a smooth one in my opinion - like marble). The directional change (hitting live wood - of a round branch that would have gripped - would be too much). This is a layman's approach from a hunter/shooter with decent experince. The Manliicher-CC is a medium-high velocity round without much true punch (unlike a 30.06/7mm at 3000 fps out of the barrel). The MLCC probably put a lighter bullet out at around 2450 fps. Hit a branch and it will ricochet a few meters (5 degrees ) at a range of 200 meters. It will not change direction seriously because in order to do that it would have to hit at such a penetrating angle that the re-direction would slow it down immensely...seriously penetrating the wood and would realistically make it a tumbling projectile. Actually, from my experience with medium powered guns - I would be comfortable catching a bullet that had gone through those physical maneuverings with a baseball glove.

- Therefore, the shot that had the power to scar/indent concrete at the underpass was a clear shot. Probably of heavier calibre than a MLCC bullet. It was likely a 30.06 (or similarly high powered) bullet that went straight from the muzzle to the curb. - - - - draw a line backwards from the curb impact , slightly over JFK's head to the origin...and there's a shooter.

It only makes sense that a shooter from that area would be shooting for the top of JFK's head - in order to miss Mrs. Connally and others...and when the street went (almost un-noticeably) downhill, the bullet would miss high and arc across to the underpass (probably a 150 or so grain bullet that would still be powerful - but drop at that range) and smack into the curb..

That kind of miss from a true high powered rifle could still be travelling at around 2500 fps at that range and would have the impact to throw up small shrapnel and could injure a bystander.

++++++++++++

The key for me though is the lack of a shot by a "single assassin" when the motorcade was coming straight at the 6th floor window of the TSBD (after the turn). Why on earth would a single assassin pass up a shot like that? The assassin should obviously recess himself/herself back from the window to prevent a gun barrel from showing - and then take the shot when it was the easiest (and least dangerous to others and best to provide a possible second and even easier shot as the motorcade approached - possibly even stopping). That shot would have been easiest and best. There is only one reason that the execution took place where it did (look at an overhead map of Dealy Plaza) - it was a triangulation of fire and the final shot was the closest covered place for a true marksman to hit. When you are killing the King - one thing is most important - you have to kill the King. Therefore the triangulation of fire near the picket fence/grassy knoll was the prime finishing point - and why the motorcade slowed/stopped at that point. (just the opinion of a layman/logical/shooter).

Again - I realize most of you experts are WAY past this logic...but it's what I use when arguing with "Oswalders".

computer problem - sorry about multiple posts - please delete moderator...Thanks....

Again sorry......DB

[Chuck Robbins]

I'm a newbie on this site - so even after reading much I will be re-stating the obvious.

..but as a Midwestern hunter in my youth...I have shot many types of firearms at lots of things (even through tree branches)...and understand relative ballistics and how bullets change directions.

- The shot that brought blood on a bystander by the curb near the underpass could not have been a "tree" ricochet. A true ricochet that held anywhere near it's initial velocity would have had to bounced off a rock (a smooth one in my opinion - like marble). The directional change (hitting live wood - of a round branch that would have gripped - would be too much). This is a layman's approach from a hunter/shooter with decent experince. The Manliicher-CC is a medium-high velocity round without much true punch (unlike a 30.06/7mm at 3000 fps out of the barrel). The MLCC probably put a lighter bullet out at around 2450 fps. Hit a branch and it will ricochet a few meters (5 degrees ) at a range of 200 meters. It will not change direction seriously because in order to do that it would have to hit at such a penetrating angle that the re-direction would slow it down immensely...seriously penetrating the wood and would realistically make it a tumbling projectile. Actually, from my experience with medium powered guns - I would be comfortable catching a bullet that had gone through those physical maneuverings with a baseball glove.

- Therefore, the shot that had the power to scar/indent concrete at the underpass was a clear shot. Probably of heavier calibre than a MLCC bullet. It was likely a 30.06 (or similarly high powered) bullet that went straight from the muzzle to the curb. - - - - draw a line backwards from the curb impact , slightly over JFK's head to the origin...and there's a shooter.

It only makes sense that a shooter from that area would be shooting for the top of JFK's head - in order to miss Mrs. Connally and others...and when the street went (almost un-noticeably) downhill, the bullet would miss high and arc across to the underpass (probably a 150 or so grain bullet that would still be powerful - but drop at that range) and smack into the curb..

That kind of miss from a true high powered rifle could still be travelling at around 2500 fps at that range and would have the impact to throw up small shrapnel and could injure a bystander.

++++++++++++

The key for me though is the lack of a shot by a "single assassin" when the motorcade was coming straight at the 6th floor window of the TSBD (after the turn). Why on earth would a single assassin pass up a shot like that? The assassin should obviously recess himself/herself back from the window to prevent a gun barrel from showing - and then take the shot when it was the easiest (and least dangerous to others and best to provide a possible second and even easier shot as the motorcade approached - possibly even stopping). That shot would have been easiest and best. There is only one reason that the execution took place where it did (look at an overhead map of Dealy Plaza) - it was a triangulation of fire and the final shot was the closest covered place for a true marksman to hit. When you are killing the King - one thing is most important - you have to kill the King. Therefore the triangulation of fire near the picket fence/grassy knoll was the prime finishing point - and why the motorcade slowed/stopped at that point. (just the opinion of a layman/logical/shooter).

Again - I realize most of you experts are WAY past this logic...but it's what I use when arguing with "Oswalders".

computer problem - sorry about multiple posts - please delete moderator...Thanks....

Again sorry......DB

Your post is logical.

All I would ask of you is can you give the location of the shooter working back from the curb?

My guess would be from the next building over and from a lower (2nd or 3rd) floor?

[David S. Brownlee]

Agreed...it would logically be from the 2nd or 3rd floor from the Dal-Tex building. This is actually a lousy spot to shoot from unless there are more shooters than even I expect. Maybe more like five shooting spots. Obviously a single shooter wouldn't shoot from there - how would he/she be able to make the other shots. But the "ricochet" doesn't work in the realm of earth physics.

There really isn't much of a choice (realizing the "hitting the tree ricochet" is stupid). The bullet that hit the curb had real pop behind it. So where else could it have come from? Obviously the shooter was trying to kill JFK...no practice shots.

It's a simple mildy arced line from the spot on the curb - back over JFK's head - to the 2nd floor of Dal-Tex. One could expect the shot to start online but the car to go downhill (and a bit left) at the firing point. Then it would drop a bit as it crossed DP and hit at the curb.

It was very well organized (IMO) - but they couldn't actually practice on DP.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I'm a newbie on this site - so even after reading much I will be re-stating the obvious.

..but as a Midwestern hunter in my youth...I have shot many types of firearms at lots of things (even through tree branches)...and understand relative ballistics and how bullets change directions.

- The shot that brought blood on a bystander by the curb near the underpass could not have been a "tree" ricochet. A true ricochet that held anywhere near it's initial velocity would have had to bounced off a rock (a smooth one in my opinion - like marble). The directional change (hitting live wood - of a round branch that would have gripped - would be too much). This is a layman's approach from a hunter/shooter with decent experince. The Manliicher-CC is a medium-high velocity round without much true punch (unlike a 30.06/7mm at 3000 fps out of the barrel). The MLCC probably put a lighter bullet out at around 2450 fps. Hit a branch and it will ricochet a few meters (5 degrees ) at a range of 200 meters. It will not change direction seriously because in order to do that it would have to hit at such a penetrating angle that the re-direction would slow it down immensely...seriously penetrating the wood and would realistically make it a tumbling projectile. Actually, from my experience with medium powered guns - I would be comfortable catching a bullet that had gone through those physical maneuverings with a baseball glove.

- Therefore, the shot that had the power to scar/indent concrete at the underpass was a clear shot. Probably of heavier calibre than a MLCC bullet. It was likely a 30.06 (or similarly high powered) bullet that went straight from the muzzle to the curb. - - - - draw a line backwards from the curb impact , slightly over JFK's head to the origin...and there's a shooter.

It only makes sense that a shooter from that area would be shooting for the top of JFK's head - in order to miss Mrs. Connally and others...and when the street went (almost un-noticeably) downhill, the bullet would miss high and arc across to the underpass (probably a 150 or so grain bullet that would still be powerful - but drop at that range) and smack into the curb..

That kind of miss from a true high powered rifle could still be travelling at around 2500 fps at that range and would have the impact to throw up small shrapnel and could injure a bystander.

++++++++++++

The key for me though is the lack of a shot by a "single assassin" when the motorcade was coming straight at the 6th floor window of the TSBD (after the turn). Why on earth would a single assassin pass up a shot like that? The assassin should obviously recess himself/herself back from the window to prevent a gun barrel from showing - and then take the shot when it was the easiest (and least dangerous to others and best to provide a possible second and even easier shot as the motorcade approached - possibly even stopping). That shot would have been easiest and best. There is only one reason that the execution took place where it did (look at an overhead map of Dealy Plaza) - it was a triangulation of fire and the final shot was the closest covered place for a true marksman to hit. When you are killing the King - one thing is most important - you have to kill the King. Therefore the triangulation of fire near the picket fence/grassy knoll was the prime finishing point - and why the motorcade slowed/stopped at that point. (just the opinion of a layman/logical/shooter).

Again - I realize most of you experts are WAY past this logic...but it's what I use when arguing with "Oswalders".

computer problem - sorry about multiple posts - please delete moderator...Thanks....

Again sorry......DB

As probably the only "Oswalder" on the site, here goes.

First off, certainly good to have someone who has at least shot game and has some understandings of the shooting.

Secondly, we seldom waited until a big buck ore even duck/geese in flight had passed and thereafter shot at their arse. However, the frontal approach shot has been discussed on numerous occassions, and it would have been a complete suicide shoot.

Everyone would have immediately looked straight up, and there was the shooter at the window, thus exposing him to potentially immediate return fire. Bucks & Ducks do not shoot back.

Thirdly, the visors were up on the limo, JBC sat directly in front of JFK, thus the shot on an approaching target of unknown speed, on a downward angle of fire of approximately 60-degrees would have required a lead in which the shooter was in fact aiming at some point on JBC and hope that the vehicle speed/forward movement brought JFK directly into the bullet flight path for a head shot/hit.

An extremely difficult shot! And although the TSDB corner location could have been selected in order to have this shot capability (in event the bubble top was on the Limo), an experienced shooter would know that the shooting, as done, was the easiest to achieve.

The Manliicher-CC is a medium-high velocity round without much true punch

Yes, at 2,200 to 2,400 fps the round rates "medium/high" or upper medium range. However the round, due to it's mass and design, has tremendous "Punch".

Might try reading up on the usage of the 6.5mm identical bullet in the hunting of elephants, as well as the fact that a Carcano FMJ round has been fired into soft pine with an entrance of some 41-inches of penetration without that much loss/deformation to the round.

41-inches of soft pine penetration is more than sufficient "punch".

it was a triangulation of fire

Watching too many "JFK" re-runs and listening to the David Ferree actor can create this symptom.

Tom

P.S. The Presidential Limo was in excess of 20 feet in length and directly in alignment with the fire from the sixth floor window, and travelling INTO the path of the bullet flight. Therefore, even were one aiming at the front hood of the vehicle, the Limo would still continue to travel into the bullet flight path and at least the car would have been hit, had there been "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

[Chris Brown]

[David,

Good Afternoon.

I have always thought the single gunman-shooting feat was Impossible.

No body (including master marksman) have ever DUPLICATED it.

And the best passes where using the steel sights. The carcano was found with

The Telescopic sight fitted.

However lets assume that it was possible. The lone assassin must have not had a nerve in his body and ice water running through his veins if the official version is correct.

Shot 1:- missed everybody in the car and the vehicle also (This is the only shot were the shooter did not have a time constraint)

Shot 2 :- Wounds both men (most mortals BOTTLE would have gone after this shot)

Shot 3 :- The Fatal shot that defies physics.

Regards

Chris Brown.

[Evan Marshall]

[David,

Good Afternoon.

I have always thought the single gunman-shooting feat was Impossible.

No body (including master marksman) have ever DUPLICATED it.

And the best passes where using the steel sights. The carcano was found with

The Telescopic sight fitted.

However lets assume that it was possible. The lone assassin must have not had a nerve in his body and ice water running through his veins if the official version is correct.

Shot 1:- missed everybody in the car and the vehicle also (This is the only shot were the shooter did not have a time constraint)

Shot 2 :- Wounds both men (most mortals BOTTLE would have gone after this shot)

Shot 3 :- The Fatal shot that defies physics.

Regards

Chris Brown.

another point that's always bothered me about LHO-he may have been a mediocre/lousy shot but he was a Marine when great emphasis was placed on rifle skills. He was a bright guy and certainly knew the MC was a piece of junk. If he was going to kill the President why not just steal a quality rifle?

evan marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

[David,

Good Afternoon.

I have always thought the single gunman-shooting feat was Impossible.

No body (including master marksman) have ever DUPLICATED it.

And the best passes where using the steel sights. The carcano was found with

The Telescopic sight fitted.

However lets assume that it was possible. The lone assassin must have not had a nerve in his body and ice water running through his veins if the official version is correct.

Shot 1:- missed everybody in the car and the vehicle also (This is the only shot were the shooter did not have a time constraint)

Shot 2 :- Wounds both men (most mortals BOTTLE would have gone after this shot)

Shot 3 :- The Fatal shot that defies physics.

Regards

Chris Brown.

another point that's always bothered me about LHO-he may have been a mediocre/lousy shot but he was a Marine when great emphasis was placed on rifle skills. He was a bright guy and certainly knew the MC was a piece of junk. If he was going to kill the President why not just steal a quality rifle?

evan marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

[Lee Forman]

Nice post David.

I tried once to get some 'curb' level photos from the area some ~25 feet from the underpass, on Main street. Unfortunately, they are all gone - managed to find this old bit from a post I did once awhile back elsewhere.

- lee

[David S. Brownlee]

[David,

And the best passes where using the steel sights. The carcano was found with

The Telescopic sight fitted....Regards

Chris Brown.

That's exactly true, telescopic optics take a split second or two to get back into the correct alignment for the eye following (the recoil) of a shot. Regular steel sights are much easier at close range. Granted the MLCC is a medium-power weapon, and thus the kick wouldn't be as hard as a real high powered weapon, but it would still require the shooter to re-acquire the target.

As far as ricocheting goes, sure, any bullet can be "turned around"...I almost caught one myself shooting in a strip mine pit surrounded by rock bluffs. It was totally spent (still it made me think). But that was off rock. A shot that nicks a tree limb will go offline a few degrees - but in order to go from a downward angle to a horizontal angle with a change in direction - it would take serious resistance (like going into the wood a few inches minimum). That would turn the projectile into a tumbling piece of shrapnel. It would also rip up a jacketed bullet since the forward momentum of the lead inside would "outrun" the exterior casing and the casing would go everywhere. With that many people under the tree, many would have been hit and gotten nicked up.

No way would the leftovers have enough energy to penetrate concrete and throw up a piece of debris at a speed that would break skin (IMO).

[Chuck Robbins]

I'm a newbie on this site - so even after reading much I will be re-stating the obvious.

..but as a Midwestern hunter in my youth...I have shot many types of firearms at lots of things (even through tree branches)...and understand relative ballistics and how bullets change directions.

- The shot that brought blood on a bystander by the curb near the underpass could not have been a "tree" ricochet. A true ricochet that held anywhere near it's initial velocity would have had to bounced off a rock (a smooth one in my opinion - like marble). The directional change (hitting live wood - of a round branch that would have gripped - would be too much). This is a layman's approach from a hunter/shooter with decent experince. The Manliicher-CC is a medium-high velocity round without much true punch (unlike a 30.06/7mm at 3000 fps out of the barrel). The MLCC probably put a lighter bullet out at around 2450 fps. Hit a branch and it will ricochet a few meters (5 degrees ) at a range of 200 meters. It will not change direction seriously because in order to do that it would have to hit at such a penetrating angle that the re-direction would slow it down immensely...seriously penetrating the wood and would realistically make it a tumbling projectile. Actually, from my experience with medium powered guns - I would be comfortable catching a bullet that had gone through those physical maneuverings with a baseball glove.

- Therefore, the shot that had the power to scar/indent concrete at the underpass was a clear shot. Probably of heavier calibre than a MLCC bullet. It was likely a 30.06 (or similarly high powered) bullet that went straight from the muzzle to the curb. - - - - draw a line backwards from the curb impact , slightly over JFK's head to the origin...and there's a shooter.

It only makes sense that a shooter from that area would be shooting for the top of JFK's head - in order to miss Mrs. Connally and others...and when the street went (almost un-noticeably) downhill, the bullet would miss high and arc across to the underpass (probably a 150 or so grain bullet that would still be powerful - but drop at that range) and smack into the curb..

That kind of miss from a true high powered rifle could still be travelling at around 2500 fps at that range and would have the impact to throw up small shrapnel and could injure a bystander.

++++++++++++

The key for me though is the lack of a shot by a "single assassin" when the motorcade was coming straight at the 6th floor window of the TSBD (after the turn). Why on earth would a single assassin pass up a shot like that? The assassin should obviously recess himself/herself back from the window to prevent a gun barrel from showing - and then take the shot when it was the easiest (and least dangerous to others and best to provide a possible second and even easier shot as the motorcade approached - possibly even stopping). That shot would have been easiest and best. There is only one reason that the execution took place where it did (look at an overhead map of Dealy Plaza) - it was a triangulation of fire and the final shot was the closest covered place for a true marksman to hit. When you are killing the King - one thing is most important - you have to kill the King. Therefore the triangulation of fire near the picket fence/grassy knoll was the prime finishing point - and why the motorcade slowed/stopped at that point. (just the opinion of a layman/logical/shooter).

Again - I realize most of you experts are WAY past this logic...but it's what I use when arguing with "Oswalders".

computer problem - sorry about multiple posts - please delete moderator...Thanks....

Again sorry......DB

As probably the only "Oswalder" on the site, here goes.

First off, certainly good to have someone who has at least shot game and has some understandings of the shooting.

Secondly, we seldom waited until a big buck ore even duck/geese in flight had passed and thereafter shot at their arse. However, the frontal approach shot has been discussed on numerous occassions, and it would have been a complete suicide shoot.

Everyone would have immediately looked straight up, and there was the shooter at the window, thus exposing him to potentially immediate return fire. Bucks & Ducks do not shoot back.

Thirdly, the visors were up on the limo, JBC sat directly in front of JFK, thus the shot on an approaching target of unknown speed, on a downward angle of fire of approximately 60-degrees would have required a lead in which the shooter was in fact aiming at some point on JBC and hope that the vehicle speed/forward movement brought JFK directly into the bullet flight path for a head shot/hit.

An extremely difficult shot! And although the TSDB corner location could have been selected in order to have this shot capability (in event the bubble top was on the Limo), an experienced shooter would know that the shooting, as done, was the easiest to achieve.

The Manliicher-CC is a medium-high velocity round without much true punch

Yes, at 2,200 to 2,400 fps the round rates "medium/high" or upper medium range. However the round, due to it's mass and design, has tremendous "Punch".

Might try reading up on the usage of the 6.5mm identical bullet in the hunting of elephants, as well as the fact that a Carcano FMJ round has been fired into soft pine with an entrance of some 41-inches of penetration without that much loss/deformation to the round.

41-inches of soft pine penetration is more than sufficient "punch".

it was a triangulation of fire

Watching too many "JFK" re-runs and listening to the David Ferree actor can create this symptom.

Tom

P.S. The Presidential Limo was in excess of 20 feet in length and directly in alignment with the fire from the sixth floor window, and travelling INTO the path of the bullet flight. Therefore, even were one aiming at the front hood of the vehicle, the Limo would still continue to travel into the bullet flight path and at least the car would have been hit, had there been "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

Hi Tom,

In one photo I have seen which was supposed to depict the target as seen from the TSBD, but which

actually seemed to be from the dal-tex, the target was moving directly away from the shooter.

Wouldn't a target, moving slowly and directly on a slight decline away from the shooter, make it very easy

to reacquire that target as the only true compensation to be made would be for the declination of that

target?

Not being a marksman myself, but, having some experience shooting rifles, I know that, for me, acquiring

and then hitting a moving target, across my field of vision, is much more difficult than one that is dead on.

Anyway...what I guess I am trying to say is this...the dal-tex position would have been my preferred

position to shoot from because it would give me the best chance of making several quick and accurate

shots.

You may believe that Oswald did the shooting, but, with only circumstantial (and questionable) evidence

available to support that position...can you understand why so many do not believe him to be the shooter?

Edited November 10, 2006 by Chuck Robbins

[David S. Brownlee]

However, the frontal approach shot has been discussed on numerous occassions, and it would have been a complete suicide shoot.

OK, so that means that the lone shooter (LHO in your opinion) wouldn't take the front-on shot for fear of not getting away. IMO, a lone shooter would not be on the sixth floor of a building that he couldn't easily have gotten out of in the first place.

Were I a lone assassin, worried about my own skin, I would have been on the prior route...walked along (or run if the motorcade sped up)...and waited for an opportunty to jump out of the crowd and blasted JFK with a .45 auto at point blank range - like 2 feet. Then I would have had a vehicle - maybe a motorcycle - waiting in an alley that I could have run back to in the confusion. Then I would have gotten away (at least initially).

Edited November 10, 2006 by David S. Brownlee

[Ashton Gray]

managed to find this old bit from a post I did once awhile back elsewhere.

I used your pointy pointers as a basis to place a bright magenta cone in the Dealey 3D model about where it looked like the bullet scar should be, then I put a generic "car" at what seemed like a reasonable place on Elm, then "looked" through the Dal-Tex window your pointy pointer was pointing to. Here are two slightly different shots (pardon any painful pun) from there, the second one closer up to the window:

Ashton

[Chuck Robbins]

managed to find this old bit from a post I did once awhile back elsewhere.

I used your pointy pointers as a basis to place a bright magenta cone in the Dealey 3D model about where it looked like the bullet scar should be, then I put a generic "car" at what seemed like a reasonable place on Elm, then "looked" through the Dal-Tex window your pointy pointer was pointing to. Here are two slightly different shots (pardon any painful pun) from there, the second one closer up to the window:

Ashton

Hmmmm....

Perhaps a spot further to the north on the same floor?

[Ashton Gray]

Hmmmm....

Perhaps a spot further to the north on the same floor?

Hey, Chuck. There are so many variables in such a "game of inches" that I just wanted to get some kind of rough idea of whether it was in the ballpark. Looks in the ballpark to me. If the car were further "up the hill," toward the Dal-Tex, or if the cone location should be a little closer to the railway overpass, or...

I'm sure you see what I mean.

I didn't save the cone/car configuration. If I get some time to put them back in and play around again I'll see what's what, but there are still question marks in that model about the plaza elevations, so at this stage of its existence it just is not a tool to use for calibrated exactness.

Even allowing for fudge factors, though, it still looks in the ballpark to me.

Ashton

Edited November 10, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[David S. Brownlee]

Nice post David.- lee

Thanks

Edited November 10, 2006 by David S. Brownlee

[John Dolva]

There appears to be two dillard photos, one of which shows the drain cover. By matching some of the stones (red) one can see it's on the periphery of the other photo. It would place the curb strike more like where the blue arrow is.

Edited November 10, 2006 by John Dolva