If the CIA was involved at all, in any way...

[Ron Ecker]

My post also includes the photo comparison of Conein and his Main and Houston lookalike, but it doesn't show up.

[Ashton Gray]

In short, I don't know that is was necessary for CIA to "control" SS; only that it had the opportunity via its Florida collaboration with SS to learn sufficient details that it could neutralize, compromise and circumvent SS protocols in a way that improved the chances for a successful hit on 11-22-63. All of which, in the absence of any more comprehensive investigation into this obscure facet of the crime, remains entirely hypothetical.

The idea that CIA literally would control Secret Service is extreme. On the other hand, any idea that international banking and oil interests, discussed in this thread, would not have controls in place in the United States Department of the Treasury passes "extreme" like it was a road apple and slams head on into "daft."

In fact, the Secret Service, in the Department of the Treasury, predates OSS as an intelligence branch of the federal government. As early as 1915 SS was ordered to investigate espionage in the United States (that's two years after 1913, an entire book in itself).

The international banking and oil interests discussed in this thread vis a vis the CIA certainly have been invested in the Treasury Department far longer than in their disturbed, deformed bastard child, CIA.

So however hypothetical your idea of interchange of critical operational information between CIA and SS in relation to the JFK assassination, and Don Jeffries's observation about SS involvement, it represents a hypothesis almost absolutely necessary to the postulation of any conspiracy at all, and certainly to one involving CIA.

The presence of C. Douglas Dillon over Treasury and the SS at the time, and his connections to the Rockefeller and other banking and oil interests, certainly ratchets the hypothesis up several notches.

And what no one so far has even touched (I mean other than C. Douglas Dillon) is the curious matter of the One Stop Car Shop on Saturday, 9 November 1963, when an automobile from Downtown Lincoln-Mercury was used under the pretense of a "test drive" to time the route from Dealey Plaza to Parkland Hospital, all while the phony Hobson's choice "controversy" was being played out between SS Dallas and SS Washington over the location for the Dallas luncheon (covered in some detail in The Route of Death).

None of that little gruesome burlesque could have been staged without witting SS involvement on both ends.

Ashton

Edited February 15, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[John Dolva]

As the following deals with Presidential security details it probably belongs here rather than in 'common ground'

"Soon after the assassination Nashville Attorney Richard Ely told a (white) Citizens Council that President John F. Kennedy “died a tyrant’s death.” The attorney can hardly be so ignorant of his country’s history as not to know that he was saying in English what Wilkis Booth had said in Latin. The reactionaries and racists of present-day America have shamelessly taken over the torch of hatred and violence from their predecessors of a century ago.

That excesses and acts of terrorism were in preparation in the South against Federal authorities and that the preparers were ultra-reactionaries and racists was known to the whole world. For his recent book on latter-day fascists and nazis Daily Herald correspondent Dennis Eisenberg made a thorough study of the activities of ultra-reactionary organizations in the United States.

The conclusion he arrived at was that such organizations would have no trouble in choosing from among their members a crack marksman or group of marksmen to slay the man they thought the most dangerous Communist agent in the Western world—John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Kennedy himself received warnings from all quarters not to go to Texas, which the oil magnates and millionaire cattle dealers had made the chief centre of the American “ultras.” Texas Governor Connally even flew to Washington to urge Kennedy to put his visit off. And when the irreparable happened, public opinion at once pointed its finger at the probable perpetrators of the crime.

A curious detail. I have before me a copy of the European edition of the New York Herald Tribune for November 23–24, carrying the announcement of the President’s death. On the same black-bordered front page it gives the Dallas police version without comment. And on the third page it presents an article entitled: “Texas Home for Radicals of All Persuasions.” The idea, apparently, was to take a neutral stand and show the activity of both Right and Left extremists in Dallas. But the only Left organization it turned up there was the Dallas United Nations Association! And the activity this organization engaged in was to invite Adlai Stevenson to give a public lecture in the city (after which the ultras spat on him and hit him with a stick). (Walker,Weissmann,Schmidt et al)

Of ultra-Right organizations, on the other hand, it found a whole spate. There are the John Birch Society (the idea of which, incidentally, was conceived right there in Dallas), and the National Indignation Convention founded by wealthy Dallas businessman Frank McGhee, and Texans for America—the brain child of cattle dealer J. Evetts Haley.

Only last April the windows of Jewish-owned shops in Dallas were pasted over with black swastikas. Also, as the paper points out, “two of the country’s leading Right-wing advocates live in Dallas.” They are multimillionaire H. L. Hunt, who financed the late unlamented Senator McCarthy, and retired General Edwin A. Walker, führer of the American ultras.

There you have the associations the first news of the terrorist act in Dallas evoked.

Of General Walker. Immediately after the assassination he gave an interview to the West-German ultra-militarist Nationalzeitung und Soldaten-Zeitung in which he did not trouble to conceal his satisfaction at what had happened. Kennedy’s death, he declared, did not come as a surprise, for plenty of inflammable matter had collected. He went on to predict that pretty big changes would follow in American policy, one of them being, in his opinion, that the United States and the G.F.R. (West Germany) would become “real partners.”

There is no question about it—the trail leads to the camp of the ultras."

A month later Chancellor Erhard (GFR) visited LBJ in his Texas Ranch accompanied by KriminalRat Ewald Peters, a Leading Member of the SS EinsatzGruppen Kommando responsibe for a million or so deaths of Communists and Jews as operation Barbarossa proceeded. This was before the establishment of the large scale Gas installations to speed up the slaughter of Bolsheviks, Jews, and other 'sub humans'.

He was also the Head of security for the JFK Berlin Visists and and unnamed US Presidential Detail member spoke highly of him.

When unmasked by East German Nazi Hunters in February 1964, upon a return from a visit to Rome he was arrested and jailed. He 'committed suicide' in jail. Apart from short references in news papers of the time, essentially he has been written out of the history books.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

in scouring the Mississippi Sovereignty files I have learnt that they were monitoring the FPCC since 1961. A network of intelligence agencies in about 14 states shared information. They particularly monitored movements of anyone on their lists who moved in and out of NO as this was a major staging point for the Freedom Riders.

NO appears to have been a headquarters where under the head of the LSC a lot of organisational decicions were formulated.

Not only did they have the state intelligence organistations providing/gathering information, there were a number of private detective agencies providing information. Bannister is recommended as such to the MSC in early 64' this means that the person recommending him had reason to do so prior to early '64.

____________

Harvey Henderson and Robert Lilley of the pres detail may have been feeding info as well.

There is a report of HH providing detailed service records of a person of interest (to the MSC) from the SS office in the Jackson PO in 1970.

Which brings me to my perennial favorite neglected research angle, the Postal Inspection Service of the USPO, the oldest intelligence gathering agency of the US government, that frequently had its Agents doubling as FBI informants. All mail potentially passed through their hands and personms marked as persons of interest would have their movements monitored. Harry Holmes in Dallas was the T7 informant.

It gets a little more complicated when one takes into account the reporting he did to his superiors in Washington, who in turn reported to the CIA. Harry effectively was a hop and skip away from Dulles, and on intimate terms with Dallas FBI. As well as being close to Fritz.

Which brings in the Police departments as sources/investigators. Col Birdsong of the Miss Highway Patrol was aware of the FPCC and were monitoring/receiving/sharing info. He may have been acting as an agent of the supposedly dormant Mississippi Bureau of Intelligence.

There was also the intelligence arm of the KKK with connections throughout society.

_______________

Perhaps the question shoud be : which of the Big Fish definitely DIDN'T know?

John;

In all probability, less than three persons may have been aware of who the ultimate target was, and, like many things, JFK may not have in fact been the original target.

And, as unlikely as it may sound to most, LHO may have actually done this strictly on his own as a result of being denied access to his original "target", thus costing him his time spent in the Soviet Union (creating his anti-attitude), as well as costing him the reward for elimination of his first designated target.

New Orleans, especially during the occupation forces of the Civil War, had easily learned the importance of spies and infiltrators into the enemy camps.

Therefore, the fact that many "families" were brought into such activities for the common good of the Southern Cause, was hardly uncommon.

And although many may have assisted LHO in one manner or another, few of these persons would have had any indications of what his designated purpose was, just as they would not have questioned exactly why? they were to assist him in his journey.

However, it is most unlikely that one will resolve much of this so long as they are looking for "myths"!

In event one operates under the general assumption that LHO's sojurn to the Soviet Union actually had some purpose (other than the mis-guided Marine), then it would be assumed that this trip (for cover story purposes) which began in August 1959 is not likely to have had too much relationship to JFK's Presidency since JFK was not elected until the 1960 election and did not take office until 1961.

One could however make a rational argument that LHO's trip to Russia could have easily been associated with Cuba as Castro took power in 1959 and shortly thereafter lost support of the US.

That LHO reportedly knew who was running guns to Castro also adds to this scenario, as well as the fact that LHO knew exactly who William Morgan was, as well as being familiar with the "Betancourt" name.

In these contexts, what may have begun as merelly a "young Marine" fantasy of fighting for fredom of the masses alongside William Morgan in Castro's "Revolution", would have easily turned to complete disdain for Castro.

And, since LHO's timeline for beginning to attempt to return to the US is directly in line with the timeline of the arrest and ultimate firing squad execution of William Morgan in Cuba, the two items, it would appear, may have some relationship to LHO's sudden decision to leave Cuba.

Even after return to the US, LHO's activities were directly geared towards "convincing" that he was some form of Socialist/Marxist/Communist, who should be allowed access/entry into Cuba.

And, not unlike many inexperienced actors, LHO "over-acted" the part!

So, one could assume that LHO merely wanted to get into Cuba to avenge the firing squad execution of his hero Major William Morgan, but most unlikely considering that he had a wife and children.

And, since LHO's "anti-americanism" activities were associated directly with multiple entities of whom he would have had absolutely no knowledge without being "fed" that information, then it is most unlikely that LHO took it upon himself to be some "Lone Avenger" of the death of William Morgan.

All of which points directly to "directed" intentions, with the ultimate intent being to get himself into Castro's Cuba.

Which was most unlikely for the intent of joining Castro's forces since Castro was well familiar with the need to eliminate any americans from his control of the government and armed forces.

To an extremely high degree of probability, LHO was being assisted and guided to some goal which would have ultimately resulted in the elimination of Fidel Castro.

Excellent reasoning that aborts at a critical stage.

"LHO was being assisted and guided to some goal which would have ultimately resulted in the elimination of Fidel Castro."

And that in itself is a pointless exercise. There were 'underground railway' entries to Cuba. No need for any overt subterfuge. Nothing Lee did or acted out would have made him welcome in Cuba. What his actions did do was establish in the eyes of those unfamiliar with the security setups of leftwing revolutionary organisations was a stereotyped persona who was trying to do what you suggest. This is done by 'the other side', which, being who they are, cannot understand these subtleties. Lee's actions identifies him with those elements. IOW it's the OPPOSITE of what you suggest that is the reason for the assassination. What you are describing is the 'public consumptions' smoke screen. It's the interests of those creating the smoke screeen that lead to the reason.

1. LHO was stationed in Japan, and at the time had even requested an extension of his tour of duty there.

This extension was approved. However, at the time that the approval came through, LHO was serving time in the Brig for his second Courts Martial offense.

After getting out of the Brig, LHO cancelled his request for extension of service in Japan.

With this in mind, one can, without too much difficulty, recognize that LHO had no specific or definitive plans related to the "early out" which he subsequently got, nor would it appear that he had any intentions of going to the Soviet Union.

After having served his time in the Brig, LHO cancelled his request for extension of service in Japan, served the remainder of his normal tour of duty in Japan and then returned to the US/California.

Within this time period began LHO's attempt to grasp the Russian language as well as his interest in the Cuban and South American political scene.

When LHO subsequently left the service and went to the Soviet Union, JFK was not elected and in the Cuban situation, William Morgan was still a hero of the Castro Revolution.

In October 1960, William Morgan was arrested and the rounding up of his group of II Frente (Anti-Castro Cubans) began.

Although many were arrested with Morgan, a grouping escaped and landed at Key West on January 27, 1961.

This was the first true confirmation of Morgan's arrest and detention.

On February 13, 1961, LHO notified the American Embassy that he wanted to return to the US.

William Morgan is executed by firing squad on March 11, 1961.

[Ashton Gray]

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

[Ron Ecker]

So was the CIA involved or not?

I don't think they were just invited guests.

[Thomas Graves]

So was the CIA involved or not?

I don't think they were just invited guests.

_______________________________

Yet another impersonal, "witty," one-liner from Mr. Ronnie Ecker...

(aka Mr. "I wish, I wish....")

Thanks for sharing, Ronnie...

_______________________________

[Peter McGuire]

Whoever controlled the Secret Service detail , on that day, was involved. Did the CIA have control of the Secret Service Agents in Dallas that day? If the answer is yes to that question, then the answer is yes, to your question.

Do you have an opinion - tentative or otherwise - about the question you have posed, Peter?

Who, in your view, was in control of the Secret Service detail at the time of the assassination?

The Secret Service detail of that day is locked. They are the smoking gun. We can all see what they did and didn't do.

We can also see Radio and Cuban man. They had no business being there and acted suspiously. They also did not move after the shooting. Everyone around them were scattering in panic.

There seems to be a connection between RM and CM to the CIA, and they also seemed to be working towards the same goal.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Peter McGuire

[J. Raymond Carroll]

So was the CIA involved or not?

I don't think they were just invited guests.

What do members think of this NEW REVELATION from MICHAEL KURTZ (via J. Mellen). It's a SLAM DUNK: ALEK DID WORK FOR CIA.

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com/2007/01/...irmed-from.html

[Michael Hogan]

What do members think of this NEW REVELATION from MICHAEL KURTZ (via J. Mellen). It's a SLAM DUNK: ALEK DID WORK FOR CIA.

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com/2007/01/...irmed-from.html

From The JFK Assassination Debates by Michael L. Kurtz:

In several interviews, Hunter Leake provided information that, if accurate, would greatly enhance the intelligence aspects of Oswald's activities. Although the absence of substantive documentary evidence precludes the ability either to refute or confirm Leake's account, his version of events deserves recounting. Leake stated that Oswald came to New Orleans in April 1963 because the CIA office there intended to use him for certain operations....

Leake speculated that his friend Richard Helms, the agency's deputy director of plans, was probably the person who ordered the destruction of the files (on Oswald) because Helms had a paranoid obsession with protecting the "company." Leake asserted, in quite a definitive manner, that Oswald indeed performed chores for the CIA during his five months in New Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963. Leake personally paid Oswald various sums of cash for his services. Again, it is not possible either to confirm or to disprove Leake's story. (In an interview, Richard Helms neither confirmed nor denied Leake's story.)

In the conclusion to his book Kurtz states:

The witholding of crucial evidence in the Kennedy assassination--the cover-up of the truth--stemmed, I believe, not from an effort to conceal the complicity of unnamed members of a military-industrial cabal behind the president's murder. Rather it arose out of an understandable desire by individuals and agencies to hide their own shortcomings.

When all is said and done, I fully anticipate that the current impasse on the Kennedy assassination will continue....We will never know the full truth about what happened in Dallas that day, or who was responsible for Kennedy's murder.

Edited February 27, 2007 by Michael Hogan

[Pat Speer]

What do members think of this NEW REVELATION from MICHAEL KURTZ (via J. Mellen). It's a SLAM DUNK: ALEK DID WORK FOR CIA.

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com/2007/01/...irmed-from.html

From The JFK Assassination Debates by Michael L. Kurtz:

In several interviews, Hunter Leake provided information that, if accurate, would greatly enhance the intelligence aspects of Oswald's activities. Although the absence of substantive documentary evidence precludes the ability either to refute or confirm Leake's account, his version of events deserves recounting. Leake stated that Oswald came to New Orleans in April 1963 because the CIA office there intended to use him for certain operations....

Leake speculated that his friend Richard Helms, the agency's deputy director of plans, was probably the person who ordered the destruction of the files (on Oswald) because Helms had a paranoid obsession with protecting the "company." Leake asserted, in quite a definitive manner, that Oswald indeed performed chores for the CIA during his five months in New Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963. Leake personally paid Oswald various sums of cash for his services. Again, it is not possible either to confirm or to disprove Leake's story. (In an interview, Richard Helms neither confirmed nor denied Leake's story.)

In the conclusion to his book Kurtz states:

The witholding of crucial evidence in the Kennedy assassination--the cover-up of the truth--stemmed, I believe, not from an effort to conceal the complicity of unnamed members of a military-industrial cabal behind the president's murder. Rather it arose out of an understandable desire by individuals and agencies to hide their own shortcomings.

When all is said and done, I fully anticipate that the current impasse on the Kennedy assassination will continue....We will never know the full truth about what happened in Dallas that day, or who was responsible for Kennedy's murder.

There are problems with Kurtz's book. He makes a number of claims and cites his source as interview with (you fill in the blank). Many times he doesn't even offer a date for the interview. Someone on another forum pointed out that his supposed interview with Leake took place before his last book was released. So why didn't he mention Leake's statements in Crime of the Century? I'd like to think Kurtz has tapes or notes from these interviews. Hopefully he'll make them available so that others can better determine his credibility.

[Michael Hogan]

There are problems with Kurtz's book. He makes a number of claims and cites his source as interview with (you fill in the blank). Many times he doesn't even offer a date for the interview. Someone on another forum pointed out that his supposed interview with Leake took place before his last book was released. So why didn't he mention Leake's statements in Crime of the Century? I'd like to think Kurtz has tapes or notes from these interviews. Hopefully he'll make them available so that others can better determine his credibility.

From The JFK Assassination Tapes by Michael L. Kurtz:

Personal Interviews

Notes, tapes, and transcripts of all interviews will be deposited at a later date in the John F. Kennedy Assassination Collection, Center for Southeast Louisiana Studies, Linus A. Sims Memorial Library, Southeastern Louisiana University, Hammond, LA. Inteviews were conducted in person, and by telephone, e-mail, and letter.

Are there problems with Kurtz' book beyond not offering dates for his interviews? In referring to it as a supposed interview, are you suggesting it may not have occurred? Kurtz mentions more than once that Leake's credibility cannot be ascertained, could that be a reason for not including it in Crime of the Century? (If indeed, that person on another forum was correct) Is Leake still alive?

Kurtz claims he saw Oswald and Banister together at LSU in New Orleans (LSUNO) and at a table in Mancuso's Restaurant, located in the same bulding as Banister's office. Of course, Delphine Roberts and William Gaudet also claimed to have seen Oswald and Banister together. Do you question Kurtz' credibility on that issue?

Have you read The JFK Assassination Debates? David Lifton, Anthony Summers and many others made extensive use of personal interviews in their books on the Kennedy assassination. By extension, does this mean their books had similar problems?

[Michael Clark]

On 2/14/2007 at 9:28 PM, Ashton Gray said:

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

I have a nascent pet theory.

Yes, the CIA was involved, along with a number of the entities mentioned above.

I am thinking it has to do with banana boats, Lansdale and the dirty, open secret; drugs. It would have implicated many but didn't come to light for 20 years when CIA drug trafficking got so big that you couldn't not see it.

[George Sawtelle]

Ashton

The CIA, as an agency, was not involved in the assassination of JFK.

The assassination was the work of Allen Dulles, CIA agents who were on loan to him, CIA contract agents on loan to him, other paid individuals, mafia hitmen and elements of the military. The military was under orders from Dwight Eisenhower since Dulles had no power over the military.

However the CIA as an agency did help in the cover up of the assassination to protect the new illegal government and the legacies of Eisenhower and Dulles. By protecting Dulles the CIA was also protecting those agents on loan to the assassination. 

[Ron Ecker]

I have a copy of the Douglass book JFK and the Unspeakable but somehow never got around to reading it.

Today I had to have my car serviced, so I took the book along for something to read. I opened it up, and this jumped out at me:

"We have no evidence as to who in the military-industrial complex may have given the order to assassinate President Kennedy. That the order was carried out by the Central Intelligence Agency is obvious.The CIA's fingerprints are all over the crime and the events leading up to it" (pp. 142-143).

I guess the rest of the 510-page book is just the details.