Clothing Examination--JFK's Shirt

[Ashton Gray]

Currently I'm working on a kind of rudimantery 'fingerprint match point analysis' adapted to the patterns on the shirt and the back.

If you're referring to blood patterns, does it include some way to plot them against time while JFK was being put onto the stretcher, and while he was on the stretcher throughout the Trauma Room One slidings and manipulations of the body before the shirt was finally removed completely, plus some paranormal way of comparing patterns on the body to patterns on the sheet the body was wrapped in (which isn't in evidence anywhere) during the trip from Dallas to D.C. and to the autopsy room?

Also, what relevance will patterns on a shirt that had been half cut off, that was being scrunched all over in a pool of blood and gore on a body being given cardiac massage (among other things) in Trauma Room One have to do with where the shirt sat on the body at the moment of the bullet going through the shirt, when there was no blood on the shirt at all?

From the testimony and evidence, there are countless variables and unknowns in such an excercise that doom it at the starting line as any measure of the back entrance wound.

The neck opening of any man's correctly fitted dress shirt, on the other hand—unequivocally and unvaryingly indicated where the collar meets the body of the shirt—sits uniformly within fractions of inches of the same place on the back of any man's neck. And you have rulers—as you have made repeated point of—to measure with from such a perfectly valid proximate point to the hole in the shirt and the hole in the back.

If and when you perform that simple test, you'll know in an instant that no amount of math or 3D manipulations ever is going to fudge the location of the hole in the shirt sufficiently to align it with the upper dark splotch on the back. The difference is so significant that it doesn't even require calibrated eyeballs. It's not even close.

Of course you're going to invest as much of your life and time as you wish iin these complex and convoluted exercises you've embarked on, and I'll be happy to see any relevant results if any ever appear, but I personally view the dividing line between productive and counterproductive work being drawn precisely where methodology and math and measuring sticks become the masters instead of the servants to common sense and simple direct observation.

Perhaps your results will disabuse me of that idea.

Ashton

[John Dolva]

duplicate post

Edited January 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

Ashton it will probably be easier for you if you drop the notions of 'paranormal' and 'fudging'. They have no place in this (or any other) such investigations.

I'm not interested in disabusing you of anything. I realise there is a 'boy with the finger in the dam', or 'the catcher in the rye', set that will experience a certain amount of dis-ease as a result and will react to that inner reality by trying to control the outer. It's important to differentiate this disquiet, which exist only within the particular observer, with critical evaluation. Some of the things you mention here do address the issue. Unfortuantely much of it is interwoven with personal opinions colored with such things as 'an exercise that (is) doom(ed)', 'complex amd convoluted', 'counterproductive', 'relevant results if any ever appear'. . . No thanks. keep them, they're yours.

I am interested in seeing where the hole in the shirt lines up with the back.

Admittedly to anyone cursorily looking at the photos, the whole thing may seem very difficult, and going for the simple solution that ignores the answers to the complexities has its attractions.

Some of the difficulties you mention are really not so difficult at all. The shirt was not on the body for very long. Apart from some movements at certain times there were two prolonged periods when there was little movements. I suspect at this time that this accounts for some duplication of patterns on the shirt as if a rubber stamp has been applied twice slightly offset. Also folds and stretched out crunches in the back shirt photos (thank's Robin) create odd pattern that need to be decoded.

On the one hand you seem to suggest that the shirt is anchored and on the other it slides about. I agree. It is largely anchored in certain areas and it has sufficient loose material under the coat that allows it to 'ride up' as Kennedy waves. Once he is shot there is a period till he is shifted to the trolley when the shirt probably stays as it is. After he is placed on the trolley until the shirt is removed the back of the shirt is very stationary.

IF then there are sufficient patterns on the body and on the shirt that correlate, then it's reasonable to assume that they are related to that time when the shirt was on the body.

Edited January 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[Ashton Gray]

I am interested in seeing where the hole in the shirt lines up with the back.

Great, John. So am I. It seems that no matter how many times I say it though, you'll dismiss it. Your dismissal of it doesn't alter the fact that I am very interested in seeing any result you get, and if it substantively disproves what I have posited, I will be downright gleeful to the exact degree that it increases the level of certainty.

The continued "maybe" that has persisted for however many years or decades is the barrier to forward progress. The only interest I have is in seeing it resolved satisfactorily. I don't care where the truth lies as long as it's the truth. That's the part that I can't seem to get across to you—but I also know when to quit trying. I wouldn't want to disturb the Wa of your efforts at amateur long-distance psychoanalysis. (But please don't quit your day job to pursue it.)

On the one hand you seem to suggest that the shirt is anchored and on the other it slides about. I agree.

Good. Agreement on sensible observations are the milestones of progress.

It is largely anchored in certain areas and it has sufficient loose material under the coat that allows it to 'ride up' as Kennedy waves.

And we were doing so well.

The bodice of the shirt has the loose material. The yoke of a dress shirt is doubled and fitted across the shoulders. I don't think the yoke of the shirt had enough play to ride up the distance required to put the part of the bodice that has the hole up near the darker mark on the back, as some have insisted.

Then again I may yet find out my estimations are off by a factor than can account for such a disparity in the natural fall and fit of the fabric.

Once he is shot there is a period till he is shifted to the trolley when the shirt probably stays as it is. After he is placed on the trolley until the shirt is removed the back of the shirt is very stationary.

I have no idea what your foundation is for that, but okay.

IF then there are sufficient patterns on the body and on the shirt that correlate, then it's reasonable to assume that they are related to that time when the shirt was on the body.

Okay. Here are some quotes of note:

• Sibert/O'Neill autopsy 302 report:
  The President’s body was removed from the casket in which it had been transported and was placed on the autopsy table, at which time the complete body was wrapped in a sheet and the head area contained an additional wrapping which was saturated with blood. Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertained that the President’s clothing had been removed...
  Paul K. O'Conner:
  He was wrapped in sheets around his chest and his torso, and when we received him he was not in a bed liner. He was in a body bag, but nothing wrapped around his torso. It was an unclothed body The only thing on his body was a bloody sheet around his head.
  

I do understand that the testimony refers to the blood-saturated wrapping being around his head, and I take it you are confident that the blood from the head wrapping didn't make its way to the back during the trip from Dallas to the autopsy room. If it did, it seems to me that would account for the majority of coagulated blood patterns, as well as for the wrinkle-marks that seem to be visible on the back—having nothing to do with the shirt.

That's why I haven't pursued it personally, but will be vitally interested in your results. Meanwhile, I'm going to direct your attention to several things that may or may not be of any interest to you. I described the following earlier in this thread. Here are the relevant images. First, a measurement on the shirt from the approximate location where the yoke meets the collar band down to the bullet hole in the shirt, using the ruler provided by HSCA (which naturally is in inches, but I've done the conversion to centimeters to match the image that follows):

Now here is the autopsy back photo using the centimeters ruler that you supplied, moved up to approximate the position of the ruler I put on the shirt:

I don't know if this is going to set off a new round of sly suggestions that I've cooked the books somehow because I wasn't potty trained properly and my id got jostled and lodged in my prefrontal lobes, causing severe bipolarity to a dysfunctional self-actualization process in projecting co-dependent empowerment. Or whatever. And whatever it sets off, there it is.

I also don't know if you've ever taken any notice of what appears to be "cratering" around the lower back mark. It's visible in the photo without any enhancement, but I've enhanced the image you posted that has the marked ruler, using levels and contrast to bring this feature out somewhat:

Finally, apropos to none of the above, in your own efforts I though you may or may not find this PDF file of some use.

Ashton

[Ashton Gray]

Yet another double post. (Was Andy so clever that he programmed the forum only to post the really good messages twice?)

Edited January 21, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Robin Unger]

It appears that they must have washed only the top half of kennedys back.

I beleive this is close to the correct alighnment of the body in the back photo.

In the ARRB Testimony there is a document where they ask about the second black spot, and why they are measuring it.

I beleive it was Boswell's testimony where they ask, what exactly where you trying to measure with that ruler, as it doesn't appear to be anywhere near the supposed hole in the back.

I will try and find the Testimony.

Large photo:

Edited January 21, 2007 by Robin Unger

[John Dolva]

Thank you, Ashton. I'll look at that.

I suspect that Kennedy would have set off out of AF1 with a check that the shirt is tucked in etc, tie straight, cuffs right etc. However one wouldn't want an immobile tight shirt strangling one when leaning forward.

After this he did a lot of stretching, shaking hands, turning, sitting, leaning this way and that way, waving, getting out to chat and shake hands with little kids, getting back in the Limo and so on.

If I stand and bend forward and stretch out my right arm/hand the shirt arm that will pull on the shirt across the shoulder and under the shoulder and down the back. This pulls at the back shirt panel. That which has been pulled up will tend to stay there when straightening up. It's light and doesn't readily fall under a buttoned coat. So unless pulled down it will tend to stay there.

One can see a heavy blood flow down between the shoulder blades. This indicates the coat is fairly snug and that this flow happened during the sitting up. After he was shot in the head the blood pressure dropped dramatically and when the heart was massaged there was a large flow through the opening in the head.IE the heart wasn't pumping and maintaining pressure, and when pressure rose it flowed out the path of least resistance which was through the large ruptured blood vessels in the head.

So the bloodflow between the shoulder blades on the back is largely from the back wound. This flow would have rapidly stopped after the headshot, or at least dramatically reduced and not resumed.

Blood starts to coagulate immediately upon leaving the body. This coagulation or clotting process is very rapid. The start is really a matter of tens of seconds. Fibrin is formed that has the natural quality of binding with tissue. This blood that is clotting is also soaking into shirt fibre. The platelets 'shrink' and pull the fibrinous mesh together. (clot contraction: aids in closing wounds by pulling tissue edges together. consider how effectively a little bit of tissue paper deals with shaving cuts and how very quickly it becomes hard to pull off)

The head is tilted back and the left shoulder is not aligned with the right shoulder, hence the creases and the low hairline. So what you have as up and as the lower edge where the collar would be on the neck is wrong, (see previous page for image)

The collar on the shirt has the lower edge pushed up, so that measurement is wrong as well.

Edited January 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thank you, Ashton. I'll look at that.

I suspect that Kennedy would have set off out of AF1 with a check that the shirt is tucked in etc, tie straight, cuffs right etc. However one wouldn't want an immobile tight shirt strangling one when leaning forward.

After this he did a lot of stretching, shaking hands, turning, sitting, leaning this way and that way, waving, getting out to chat and shake hands with little kids, getting back in the Limo and so on.

If I stand and bend forward and stretch out my right arm/hand the shirt arm that will pull on the shirt across the shoulder and under the shoulder and down the back. This pulls at the back shirt panel. That which has been pulled up will tend to stay there when straightening up. It's light and doesn't readily fall under a buttoned coat. So unless pulled down it will tend to stay there.

One can see a heavy blood flow down between the shoulder blades. This indicates the coat is fairly snug and that this flow happened during the sitting up. After he was shot in the head the blood pressure dropped dramatically and when the heart was massaged there was a large flow through the opening in the head.IE the heart wasn't pumping and maintaining pressure, and when pressure rose it flowed out the path of least resistance which was through the large ruptured blood vessels in the head.

So the bloodflow between the shoulder blades on the back is largely from the back wound. This flow would have rapidly stopped after the headshot, or at least dramatically reduced and not resumed.

Blood starts to coagulate immediately upon leaving the body. This coagulation or clotting process is very rapid. The start is really a matter of tens of seconds. Fibrin is formed that has the natural quality of binding with tissue. This blood that is clotting is also soaking into shirt fibre. The platelets 'shrink' and pull the fibrinous mesh together. (clot contraction: aids in closing wounds by pulling tissue edges together. consider how effectively a little bit of tissue paper deals with shaving cuts and how very quickly it becomes hard to pull off)

The head is tilted back and the left shoulder is not aligned with the right shoulder, hence the creases and the low hairline. So what you have as up and as the lower edge where the collar would be on the neck is wrong, (see previous page for image)

The collar on the shirt has the lower edge pushed up, so that measurement is wrong as well.

John;

Although any of the estimated positions could be correct, take a look at this.

And yes, the camera angle is certainly on a downward looking position on a subject matter that is rolled slightly forward, which would serve to indicate that the back is also at somewhat of an angle to the plane of the lense.

[Ashton Gray]

The head is tilted back and the left shoulder is not aligned with the right shoulder, hence the creases and the low hairline. So what you have as up and as the lower edge where the collar would be on the neck is wrong, (see previous page for image)

The collar on the shirt has the lower edge pushed up, so that measurement is wrong as well.

I'm aware of the head tilt. I'm aware of the collar situation. You assert that the positions I am measuring from are are wrong. I think they are approximately very right.

And one thing I know for a fact: if they are wrong, they sure as hell aren't 3 1/2-to-4 centimeters wrong.

And that's the difference between the two marks at issue.

Ashton

[John Dolva]

Robin, I think your rotation is close to where the spine in the upper part of the body would be level. IMO it should be a bit more.

For the measurements off the photo the following should be considered.

As Ashton pointed out earlier the collar itself is likely to stay put. This means that as the neck is tilted forward or back the distance between the bottom of the colar and a point on the back changes.

Also this distance can only be taken when the line of the spine is understood.

Of course this doesn't even begin to take into account any shirt distortions and consequent shortening of distances.

Hopefully this collage of images explain a number of these issues.

Edited January 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[Ashton Gray]

...the collar itself is likely to stay put. This means that as the neck is tilted forward or back the distance between the bottom of the colar and a point on the back changes.

That could be the case to some degree. However, I think the saddle-like lay of the yoke on the shoulders effects a restraint on any significant vertical motion of the bodice. How much, I don't know exactly, but the yoke is double-stitched across the back bodice, to both sleeves, and to the left and right front bodice pieces of the shirt, so I believe that the double-layered yoke resting on the shoulders has a determining influence on the position of the bodice that mere neck movement don't seem to change at all even with a buttoned collar and tie. The fabric of the collar folds to accommodate any neck movement without any significant effect on the position of the yoke as far as I can determine. That's my experience. Almost anyone can test this for themselves in front of a mirror.

It would be good to have some photos with actual visible measurements done on just such movements. I may try to get that done if I can find the time and a willing model.

Ashton

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Robin, I think your rotation is close to where the spine in the upper part of the body would be level. IMO it should be a bit more.

For the measurements off the photo the following should be considered.

As Ashton pointed out earlier the collar itself is likely to stay put. This means that as the neck is tilted forward or back the distance between the bottom of the colar and a point on the back changes.

Also this distance can only be taken when the line of the spine is understood.

Of course this doesn't even begin to take into account any shirt distortions and consequent shortening of distances.

Hopefully this collage of images explain a number of these issues.

John;

As mentioned, when looking at shirt fit, one must also take into consideration the "humpback" nature of the upper back and shoulder (as well as neck) anatomy of JFK as a result of the steriods which he had consumed for some period of time.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/index.html

There are also other photo's available which demonstrate this to a better degree.

Edited January 21, 2007 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Couldn't find any photos of JFK in shirtsleeves from behind -- but this indicates a general fit for a tailored shirt.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Couldn't find any photos of JFK in shirtsleeves from behind -- but this indicates a general fit for a tailored shirt.

Having looked at so many photo's, it is quite hard to recall what demonstrates what.

The "poolside" photo of JFK with his back brace on when he was in FL with Ambassador Earl Smith, if recalled correctly, is worth a review.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

John;

In re-digging around, I found this photo which was ordered from the National Archives some (a lot) of years ago.

Do not recall having seen this quality of it and do not know if it will be of any benefit.

Tom