What Helen Markum didn't see

[Charles Black]

At some point in the past, I remember documenting that several members of the W.C. thought Helen to be a complete loon.

Charlie Black

I'm sure the views of W.C. members are treated here with all the respect they deserve. If Mrs. Markham was a loon to them it was because she was QUITE CERTAIN that the murder happened at 1.07 --1.08. The same WC members ignored TF Bowley because he was loony enough to be equally certain that it was exactly 1.10 when he arrived, after the gunman had fled.

These WC members knew quite well that if Markham & Bowley were correct about the time (and no witness ever contradicted them, as best I recall) then someone other than Lee Oswald was the cold-blooded murderer of JD Tippit.

Reading Markham's complete testimony is all that is necessary for more persons than the WC to call her a loon. She repeatedly disputed her own testimony.

There is no reason to believe that her testimony regarding the time was any more credible than anything else that she said. NO ONE can verify what exact time this occurred is why we are still discussing it. Is it incredible that we don't know the exact time, when we are not even certain of the direction that the shooter was walking? I don't believe that Oswald was the shooter either, but it won't be proven by any testimony that we have so far heard from anyone.

Frankly, I don't even believe that Oz returned to his room. I think that we have testimony of a number of loons.

Charlie Black

[Jack White]

A few years ago the Discovery Channel did a re-enactment and concluded that there would not have been enough time for Oswald to get from his rooming house to the location unless he was walking from West to East. If this is so, he had walked roughly 1 mile and was still walking towards Ruby's apartment, a half mile away. Coincidence?

Pat...have you ever walked LHO's alleged route? Don't believe what others say; they have an agenda.

Do it for yourself like many researchers have, and you'll find it impossible. From Beckley to Tenth is

ALL UPHILL. Heavily traveled streets must be crossed. If you have not walked the walk, you cannot

talk the talk. It cannot be done, if a realistic timeline is used for start and finish, including the walk from

the cab departure to 1026, the pause to change clothes, the walk to the bus stop, and the walk around

the block in the opposite direction. I have not walked the ENTIRE route but have driven it many times at

walking speed. I HAVE walked the post-cab route from Neely Street to 1026. Even downhill it takes a

very long time to walk five blocks. I have not walked the entire route because of age and having to

walk with a cane...but I have accompanied several researchers younger and fitter than I who walked

the entire route and timed it.

Jack

[J. Raymond Carroll]

There is no reason to believe that her testimony regarding the time was any more credible than anything else that she said. NO ONE can verify what exact time this occurred.

Charlie Black

It might be closer to the truth to say that ANYONE "can verify what exact time this occurred."

The record clearly shows that TF Bowley verified Markham's time.

Thus we have two percipient witnesses who INDEPENDENTLY verify that the murder HAD TO HAVE HAPPENED BEFORE 1.10. That is the defense case which, as the whole world knows, was never presented to the Warren Commission.

[That] is why we are still discussing it.

It seems to me that there is nothing left to discuss about the TIME of the murder, unless you can now produce some EVIDENCE that Markham and Bowley were BOTH WRONG ABOUT THE TIME.

As far as I can remember, there is no EVIDENCE in the official record that would allow any reasonably objective person to conclude that the murder happened AFTER 1.10. And the OPINIONS of Warren Commission people are not evidence, just as my opinion is not evidence and your opinion is not evidence.

If you know of evidence which actually contradicts the time given by Bowley and Markham, I'm sure members would appreciate your posting it.

Edited February 14, 2007 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Charles Black]

J. Raymond

A lack of contradictory evidence proves nothing and needs not to, as their is no certifiable evidence that the shooting occuured at 1:08 or 1:13. If there was, we would still not be discussing this. Whether or not there was a trial may have been of no consequence. Were their a trial, I don't doubt that the police record would have been weighted heavier than the personal timepieces of the two civilians.

However, as I have stated before, I feel that there is no evidence that LHO shot anyone in his entire life..... other than himself. And he did not even do that particularly well !

Charlie Black

Charlie Black

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Were their a trial, I don't doubt that the police record would have been weighted heavier than the personal timepieces of the two civilians.

Charlie Black

Please tell us what is in the police record that could outweigh the testimony of Bowley and Markham on the crucial issue of time.

[Duke Lane]

A few years ago the Discovery Channel did a re-enactment and concluded that there would not have been enough time for Oswald to get from his rooming house to the location unless he was walking from West to East. If this is so, he had walked roughly 1 mile and was still walking towards Ruby's apartment, a half mile away. Coincidence?

If we are thinking of the same re-enactment, your directions are reversed. Proving that someone could have done something is far different, of course, than proving that they did do something! Let's not, in the course of this thread, forget that there were witnesses a block to the east - at 10th and Denver - who said they saw a man (the shooter?) walking westward on 10th toward Patton, which both the WC and the DC proved could not have been LHO.

There is only "coincidence" with respect to Ruby's apartment if and only if it was LHO on 10th Street, and he had been walking eastward. Eastward was also the same general direction as Kay Coleman's apartment, the "estate" being "guarded" by Harry Olsen (Coleman's cop boyfriend and Ruby buddy ... despite his claims to the contrary), the parts store where Donnie Benavides picked up the never-delivered car part, and a 7-11. Coincidence?

For about "coincidences," see the thread "Did Oswald murder Tippit, and did Baker set the Rabbit running?"

[Charles Black]

J. Raymond

I don't know why this seems so important to you but the evidence which I am referring to and that I feel would have been accepted would have been the record of the "call in" that an officer was down.

It is apparent that the only instances in which the law wishes to even accept "eyewitness" testimony is when the testimony favors their cause.

Do you really believe that eyewitness timepieces are tuned to the exact minute or three and not given even considerably less credibility than eyewitness testimony? I personally don't believe that Oz was there at 1:08 or at 1:15.

In times of great stress, often the passage of time becomes quite questionable....with or without a watch.

Charlie Black

PS I would bet that mine and my wife's timepieces almost never agree....even if they were set by the same standard.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I don't know why this seems so important to you

At the risk of stating the obvious, if Bowley and Markham are the sole source of evidence as to the time of the murder, and if rational people are to be guided by evidence and not some preconceived belief, then it is impossible that Lee Oswald murdered JD Tippit, because he had a pretty airtight alibi for the time in question (unless he owned a helicopter).

but the evidence which I am referring to and that I feel would have been accepted would have been the record of the "call in" that an officer was down.

Charlie Black

No question that the "call in" is evidence, but it does not contradict the testimony of Bowley and Markham, which remains unchallenged as far as I can determine. I think it was Bowley himself who finally figured out how to work the police radio and made the call-in, so his own sworn affidavit, combined with the record of the call-in, means that the call-in came about six minutes after Bowley drove up, and about eight minutes after the murder.

[Jim Feemster]

Duke, you are absolutely right. on my second post on this thread that I started I got east and west turned around. I really know the difference but posted it wrong.

Time not withstanding, my point is this:

If Scoggins is setting in his cab eating his lunch at or about on the corner of 10th and Patton with his cab facing North as he says in the WC Hearings why does he not see the killer pass in front of his cab walking from WEST to EAST. He had to have been real close to the corner because he states he was about even with a stop sign that had been knocked down at that intersection previously.

If the killer did not pass by Scoggins" cab then he had to have been walking from EAST to WEST when Scogins did see him. And if that's the case then the killer was not or could not have been OZ and here is where the time element could be analized.

jim

[Pat Speer]

A few years ago the Discovery Channel did a re-enactment and concluded that there would not have been enough time for Oswald to get from his rooming house to the location unless he was walking from West to East. If this is so, he had walked roughly 1 mile and was still walking towards Ruby's apartment, a half mile away. Coincidence?

Pat...have you ever walked LHO's alleged route? Don't believe what others say; they have an agenda.

Do it for yourself like many researchers have, and you'll find it impossible. From Beckley to Tenth is

ALL UPHILL. Heavily traveled streets must be crossed. If you have not walked the walk, you cannot

talk the talk. It cannot be done, if a realistic timeline is used for start and finish, including the walk from

the cab departure to 1026, the pause to change clothes, the walk to the bus stop, and the walk around

the block in the opposite direction. I have not walked the ENTIRE route but have driven it many times at

walking speed. I HAVE walked the post-cab route from Neely Street to 1026. Even downhill it takes a

very long time to walk five blocks. I have not walked the entire route because of age and having to

walk with a cane...but I have accompanied several researchers younger and fitter than I who walked

the entire route and timed it.

Jack

After watching that Discovery program in 2004, I went to Mapquest and created the route from the rooming house to Ruby's. It depicted Oswald going east shortly after leaving the house, and then cutting down. If Oswald went down and then over, however, the shortest route led him directly past the Tippit site. As most people think of blocks as square blocks, it seemed likely that Oswald's choice of heading south first or east first was random. The fact he was on a logical route to Ruby's could be a coincidence, of course. In November, 2004, I retraced the route heading east past the Tippit site, in a car with a friend. We drove 4 mph, as I remember it, and got there in plenty of time in something like 12 minutes. Of course, if Tippit was shot at 1:08 it's another story.

We've been over this material before, Jack, and I think your route, the one that takes far too long, has Oswald heading to the North from the rooming house, and circling round the block. I think the housekeeper saw him head that way to wait for a bus. If he waited for a few seconds, then decided to leave on foot, of course, he would logically head South, back past the rooming house. There is no indication she sat by the window looking for him.

I'm flying on memory here. I trust I'll be corrected if my memory has failed me.

[Jack White]

A few years ago the Discovery Channel did a re-enactment and concluded that there would not have been enough time for Oswald to get from his rooming house to the location unless he was walking from West to East. If this is so, he had walked roughly 1 mile and was still walking towards Ruby's apartment, a half mile away. Coincidence?

Pat...have you ever walked LHO's alleged route? Don't believe what others say; they have an agenda.

Do it for yourself like many researchers have, and you'll find it impossible. From Beckley to Tenth is

ALL UPHILL. Heavily traveled streets must be crossed. If you have not walked the walk, you cannot

talk the talk. It cannot be done, if a realistic timeline is used for start and finish, including the walk from

the cab departure to 1026, the pause to change clothes, the walk to the bus stop, and the walk around

the block in the opposite direction. I have not walked the ENTIRE route but have driven it many times at

walking speed. I HAVE walked the post-cab route from Neely Street to 1026. Even downhill it takes a

very long time to walk five blocks. I have not walked the entire route because of age and having to

walk with a cane...but I have accompanied several researchers younger and fitter than I who walked

the entire route and timed it.

Jack

After watching that Discovery program in 2004, I went to Mapquest and created the route from the rooming house to Ruby's. It depicted Oswald going east shortly after leaving the house, and then cutting down. If Oswald went down and then over, however, the shortest route led him directly past the Tippit site. As most people think of blocks as square blocks, it seemed likely that Oswald's choice of heading south first or east first was random. The fact he was on a logical route to Ruby's could be a coincidence, of course. In November, 2004, I retraced the route heading east past the Tippit site, in a car with a friend. We drove 4 mph, as I remember it, and got there in plenty of time in something like 12 minutes. Of course, if Tippit was shot at 1:08 it's another story.

We've been over this material before, Jack, and I think your route, the one that takes far too long, has Oswald heading to the North from the rooming house, and circling round the block. I think the housekeeper saw him head that way to wait for a bus. If he waited for a few seconds, then decided to leave on foot, of course, he would logically head South, back past the rooming house. There is no indication she sat by the window looking for him.

I'm flying on memory here. I trust I'll be corrected if my memory has failed me.

You are overlooking one thing. If he is documented going to the bus stop, HE IS GOING TOWARD

DOWNTOWN. The bus at that bus stop GOES DOWNTOWN. So you are saying that he changed his

mind about going downtown, apparently, and after standing for some unknown period of time

started walking in the opposite direction. Actually it makes no difference whether he then goes

south on Beckley or the next parallel street to the east. It is approximately the same distance

to Tenth and Patton whether he takes Beckley or the next parallel route...it is NOT LONGER.

The walk cannot be walked UPHILL at a normal pace in the alloted time.

Jack

[Jack White]

(deleted duplicate post for Jack)

Edited February 15, 2007 by Evan Burton
Duplicate post

[Pat Speer]

I received an e-mail from Dave Perry with the results of the Discovery Channel re-enactment supervised by himself and Gary Mack. All times reflect a man moving at a fast walk. As Gary has pointed out, however, it's possible Oswald ran part of the way.

The Routes

The shortest and most logical route is Beckley to Davis to Crawford to Tenth. This path would be based upon Helen Markham's claim that the shooter was walking in an easterly direction on Tenth. The test here yielded a total time of 11 minutes 10 seconds. If you add 31 seconds for the trip to the bus stop on the front end you get 11 minutes 41 seconds.

The next route uses Patton which is located one block to the east of Crawford. We immediately eliminated this route because for the route to work prior to Tippit's killing the shooter would have been walking south on Patton. He would have had to physically walk around Helen Markham before she reached the corner of Tenth and Patton.

The next street over from Patton is Denver but this is eliminated because Bill Smith would have seen the shooter walking towards him in a southerly direction on Denver.

We still had to see if we could fulfill Jimmy Burt's claim of the shooter heading westbound on Tenth. The only way to do this was to get the shooter over to Marsalis and have him walk back on Tenth from east to west. This trip gave us 16 minutes 11 seconds. If we add 31 seconds for the bus stop we get 16 minutes 42 seconds. This was outside of our projected range and made this route questionable.

Dave Perry 11/20/03

[Jack White]

I received an e-mail from Dave Perry with the results of the Discovery Channel re-enactment supervised by himself and Gary Mack. All times reflect a man moving at a fast walk. As Gary has pointed out, however, it's possible Oswald ran part of the way.

The Routes

The shortest and most logical route is Beckley to Davis to Crawford to Tenth. This path would be based upon Helen Markham's claim that the shooter was walking in an easterly direction on Tenth. The test here yielded a total time of 11 minutes 10 seconds. If you add 31 seconds for the trip to the bus stop on the front end you get 11 minutes 41 seconds.

The next route uses Patton which is located one block to the east of Crawford. We immediately eliminated this route because for the route to work prior to Tippit's killing the shooter would have been walking south on Patton. He would have had to physically walk around Helen Markham before she reached the corner of Tenth and Patton.

The next street over from Patton is Denver but this is eliminated because Bill Smith would have seen the shooter walking towards him in a southerly direction on Denver.

We still had to see if we could fulfill Jimmy Burt's claim of the shooter heading westbound on Tenth. The only way to do this was to get the shooter over to Marsalis and have him walk back on Tenth from east to west. This trip gave us 16 minutes 11 seconds. If we add 31 seconds for the bus stop we get 16 minutes 42 seconds. This was outside of our projected range and made this route questionable.

Dave Perry 11/20/03

There is no reason that A LOGICAL ROUTE was taken (if at all). To assume a logical route

assumes a destination. What was his destination? Was he just wandering aimlessly?

Was he headed to the theater? Was he going to Ruby's? Was he going to the highway?

Was he going to the zoo? Or did he have a planned rendezvous with a police officer?

See what I mean? If we don't know his destnation, we cannot say there was a LOGICAL

ROUTE. We don't even know for sure that the walking man was the man who shot Tippit

or who was arrested in the Texas Theater, do we? We do not know whether the Tippit

shooting was a part of the conspiracy or just a random unrelated event...do we?

Jack

[Ed LeDoux]

Jack,

And lets not forget the library or the club/restaurant which Scoggins was parked near, also the diner in that area. Or perhaps he was breaking in some new shoes from Hardy's. Lots of places to go but not much time to get there or be coming from to get to the murder spot.

I agree totally if it was LHO he would need a destination, not just strolling about Oakcliff aimlessly.

More than likely the Tippit murderer was known by JD and was looking for Tippits girlfriend at the apartment. It could be her ex or another paramour who knew better than go to a cops girlfriends place without protection (and I don't mean contraception). Tippit calls the apartment and gets no answer, maybe he thinks she is home and is not answering because she is in bed with another. He is furious and jealousy makes him tear across Oakcliff to her place to find someone coming out of the complex who he knows to be a rival for her affections, or has no business in the area because JD knows everyone in the building. As he is parking he sees the other guy who starts away from him, so JD calls out to him from the window. When he talks to him and doesn't like the answers he is getting he decides to use a little force to get his point across to leave his girl alone or else. Before he can do that the rival shows him who's boss and drops JD with a flurry of shots. Then to make sure he never intimidates him ever again he caps him in the brain pan. A crime of passion.

Or Tippit was filling in on the assassination for Harry Olsen, and was a lose end who got trimmed. So Harry figures he is next for a dirt nap after Ruby shoots Lee and then on Sunday he takes the drive with Kathy to Henrietta to get some money to skip town from his parents and or stash something there as an insurance policy.

Isn't it fun to speculate. I could do it all day and it would get us nowhere.........

The bizarre midnight meeting Friday night with Ruby, Olsen and Kay outside Simon's Garage which lasted two or three hours according to Olsen is one place I would want to be a fly on the wall.

Sounds like they had a lot to discuss even if it was only an hour long conversation.

Back to the point that Oswald is not the Tippit shooter.

Thank you Jack for using logic and common sense to prove Tippit's murderer was not LHO.

J. Raymond Carroll also used a little thing called evidence, I like that and wish more of us used it. Mr. Lane too seems to use reality to base his remarks on this subject.

"Charlie Black

PS I would bet that mine and my wife's timepieces almost never agree....even if they were set by the same standard."

This would seem to point out that you know how much your time piece differs from your wife's and how they each correspond to say the five o'clock news. I too have several time keepers and know how each is set and how they differ, the one by the TV is fast so I won't miss a show. The one on my wrist is set to the clock at work. The one on my cellular phone is set by the provider and matches exactly the time on my computer. The one on the Microwave is one minute fast but the one on the stove is right on. We all know what time it is by looking at any device designed to keep time and whether it is fast slow or right on time by repetition of use. Mrs. Markham is no different. She would know the bus driver is fast, slow, or usually right on time most of the time and would adjust her actions accordingly. The same can't be said for the WC staff who warp time to fit a certain scenario. If they were interested in the true time they would compare the witnesses time pieces to an independent device and get a common value, this of course was not done. Even you Mr. Black realize the need for this by your statement "...mine and my wife's timepieces almost never agree....even if they were set by the same standard." Only in a true investigation, though would this be done.