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Blood in Dealey Plaza


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Guest Stephen Turner

Evan, I believe Lee Foreman, and or Robin Unger have posted what your looking for here in earlier threads. Perhaps you could P/M these fine Gentlemen. I am sure they will help. Steve.

Edited by Stephen Turner
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wondering if there's any photos of this and an exact location-as a retired Homicide Sgt I remain appalled at the incredibly shabby job Dallas Homicide did-Fritz's "questions" are even more disappointing-he obviously couldn't solve the theft of a bicycle.

There were photos taken Evan, as per the accounts provided - by one of the newspaper photographers. They no longer seem to exist. The best that remains is the question as to whether or not the dark patch on the concrete behind the retaining wall, as seen in the Daniel film, could have been one of these pools.

I tried to do a bit to locate the various possibles on a plat - it's here someplace on the Forum. The accounts of the location are totally conflicting - which logically says that there was more than one, possibly more than two, locations. You can see 2 of them on Don Roberdeau's plat. Based upon his info, Jack White places one on the sidewalk alongside the TSBD - which makes sense with another account I heard - in which an FBI agent parked his car over it. That's not documented anywhere, so pretend I made it up.

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

It's unclear from Hill's account if she was referring to the one behind the retaining wall or not. As per Jack White, she showed him the area in person, and it was on or closer to the stairs where she saw the blood. She was made to doubt her own observations by folks poking fun about lambchop, so she ended up thinking it was a snow cone by the time of the WR. You can watch her heading up the knoll in one of the films - I think I remember that she skips the first few steps and walks up the slope - eliminates part of the stairs anyway. I heard several interesting stories about the origins of these pools - nothing conclusive. I used to think it possible that some of the blood was related - the stairs, retaining wall and then parking area - but these would be separate from the one at the sidewalk, closer to the Elm St extension. And the bloody piece of hairy flesh seen by Couch, IMO, was more likely a piece of Kennedy's scalp -that's a guess based upon something else I heard once about 'souvenirs' and what Vince Drain related concerning bone fragments with hair attached.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...08&hl=pools

- lee

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There is a very interesting account of this story in the book Unsolved Texas Mysteries by Wallace O. Chariton. On the morning of the assassination, Jerry Coley, who worked in the advertising department of the Dallas Morning News, spent sometime drinking coffee with Jack Ruby, who had arrived at the office to place his weekly advert in the newspaper. Ruby spent far longer than usual in the office. He also seemed interested in looking at the Texas School Book Depository (the Dallas Morning News office provided a good view of the building).

Coley and another worker from the building, Charlie Mulkey, decided to go and watch the JFK motorcade. Ruby said he was not interested in seeing JFK and remained in the office.

Coley and Mulkey stood on Houston Street near the entrance of the old county jail. They therefore did not see or hear the shooting, however, when news spread to them they went to Dealey Plaza. While walking down the steps on the grassy knoll, they discovered a pool of blood (Mulkey actually tasted it to make sure it was blood). The two men estimated that there must have been a pint of blood on the steps close to the fence on the grassy knoll.

When the two men returned to the office they told photographer, Jim Hood, about the blood. He visited the scene and took a photograph of it. Later that day, Coley showed the photograph to Hugh Aynesworth, an investigative journalist who worked for the Dallas Morning News. Aynesworth seemed interested in the story but it never appeared in the newspaper.

On 25th November, 1963, Coley began receiving anonymous phone calls. The calls suggested that Coley was in someway involved in the plot to kill JFK. However, the real intention was to intimidate Coley into silence about the the blood on the steps. Threats were made against Coley’s children. The couple understandably decided to keep quiet about the story. In fact, Coley’s wife and their children went into hiding. When Coley returned to the steps on the grassy knoll, the blood had been cleaned away.

On 27th November, 1963, a Time Magazine reporter arrived at the office. He wanted to interview Coley about the story but frightened about the consequences, he refused to speak to him.

The following week, two FBI agents arrived at the office and asked to speak to Coley and Jim Hood. They asked to see the photograph. They took this away plus the negative. The FBI told the two men: “For your benefit, it never happened… Just forget the entire incident; it never happened.”

The men took this advice. However, in 1988, a film crew from Los Angeles contacted Coley and asked him if he would be willing to be interviewed for a documentary they were making on Jack Ruby. Coley agreed and during the interview he told them the story of the blood on the steps. The reporter was fascinated with the story and he was filmed at the spot where the blood was found. It was assumed by the reporter, that someone had been hit in the crossfire and therefore confirmed the view that there must have been two gunman involved in the killing of JFK. Three days later the reporter phoned to say that the director of the documentary had decided not to use the section on the pool of blood. Coley was relieved as his wife had complained when she heard that he had told the reporter the story.

In 1990 Coley told the story to Wallace O. Chariton. He was convinced that Coley was telling the truth (by this time Hood and Mulkey were dead). Aynesworth was interviewed and he confirmed the story but claims that he was convinced that it was some sort of dark drink had been spilt on the steps.

Coley was working on the Henry Marshall case at the time. He therefore asked Clint Peoples about the story of the blood on the steps. Peoples, who was carrying out his own investigation into the JFK assassination at the time, admitted that he already knew about the story. What is more, he believed it was an important factor in explaining the mystery of the assassination.

What Chariton does not say in the article, is that Peoples claimed that he was on the verge of solving the case. He told several friends this at this time. Clint Peoples was killed shortly after Chariton’s book was published in 1991. His manuscript on the JFK assassination has never been found.

This subject was previously discussed here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6108

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There is a very interesting account of this story in the book Unsolved Texas Mysteries by Wallace O. Chariton. On the morning of the assassination, Jerry Coley, who worked in the advertising department of the Dallas Morning News, spent sometime drinking coffee with Jack Ruby, who had arrived at the office to place his weekly advert in the newspaper. Ruby spent far longer than usual in the office. He also seemed interested in looking at the Texas School Book Depository (the Dallas Morning News office provided a good view of the building).

Coley and another worker from the building, Charlie Mulkey, decided to go and watch the JFK motorcade. Ruby said he was not interested in seeing JFK and remained in the office.

Coley and Mulkey stood on Houston Street near the entrance of the old county jail. They therefore did not see or hear the shooting, however, when news spread to them they went to Dealey Plaza. While walking down the steps on the grassy knoll, they discovered a pool of blood (Mulkey actually tasted it to make sure it was blood). The two men estimated that there must have been a pint of blood on the steps close to the fence on the grassy knoll.

When the two men returned to the office they told photographer, Jim Hood, about the blood. He visited the scene and took a photograph of it. Later that day, Coley showed the photograph to Hugh Aynesworth, an investigative journalist who worked for the Dallas Morning News. Aynesworth seemed interested in the story but it never appeared in the newspaper.

On 25th November, 1963, Coley began receiving anonymous phone calls. The calls suggested that Coley was in someway involved in the plot to kill JFK. However, the real intention was to intimidate Coley into silence about the the blood on the steps. Threats were made against Coley’s children. The couple understandably decided to keep quiet about the story. In fact, Coley’s wife and their children went into hiding. When Coley returned to the steps on the grassy knoll, the blood had been cleaned away.

On 27th November, 1963, a Time Magazine reporter arrived at the office. He wanted to interview Coley about the story but frightened about the consequences, he refused to speak to him.

The following week, two FBI agents arrived at the office and asked to speak to Coley and Jim Hood. They asked to see the photograph. They took this away plus the negative. The FBI told the two men: “For your benefit, it never happened… Just forget the entire incident; it never happened.”

The men took this advice. However, in 1988, a film crew from Los Angeles contacted Coley and asked him if he would be willing to be interviewed for a documentary they were making on Jack Ruby. Coley agreed and during the interview he told them the story of the blood on the steps. The reporter was fascinated with the story and he was filmed at the spot where the blood was found. It was assumed by the reporter, that someone had been hit in the crossfire and therefore confirmed the view that there must have been two gunman involved in the killing of JFK. Three days later the reporter phoned to say that the director of the documentary had decided not to use the section on the pool of blood. Coley was relieved as his wife had complained when she heard that he had told the reporter the story.

In 1990 Coley told the story to Wallace O. Chariton. He was convinced that Coley was telling the truth (by this time Hood and Mulkey were dead). Aynesworth was interviewed and he confirmed the story but claims that he was convinced that it was some sort of dark drink had been spilt on the steps.

Coley was working on the Henry Marshall case at the time. He therefore asked Clint Peoples about the story of the blood on the steps. Peoples, who was carrying out his own investigation into the JFK assassination at the time, admitted that he already knew about the story. What is more, he believed it was an important factor in explaining the mystery of the assassination.

What Chariton does not say in the article, is that Peoples claimed that he was on the verge of solving the case. He told several friends this at this time. Clint Peoples was killed shortly after Chariton’s book was published in 1991. His manuscript on the JFK assassination has never been found.

This subject was previously discussed here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6108

thanks alot

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There is a very interesting account of this story in the book Unsolved Texas Mysteries by Wallace O. Chariton. On the morning of the assassination, Jerry Coley, who worked in the advertising department of the Dallas Morning News, spent sometime drinking coffee with Jack Ruby, who had arrived at the office to place his weekly advert in the newspaper. Ruby spent far longer than usual in the office. He also seemed interested in looking at the Texas School Book Depository (the Dallas Morning News office provided a good view of the building).

Coley and another worker from the building, Charlie Mulkey, decided to go and watch the JFK motorcade. Ruby said he was not interested in seeing JFK and remained in the office.

Coley and Mulkey stood on Houston Street near the entrance of the old county jail. They therefore did not see or hear the shooting, however, when news spread to them they went to Dealey Plaza. While walking down the steps on the grassy knoll, they discovered a pool of blood (Mulkey actually tasted it to make sure it was blood). The two men estimated that there must have been a pint of blood on the steps close to the fence on the grassy knoll.

When the two men returned to the office they told photographer, Jim Hood, about the blood. He visited the scene and took a photograph of it. Later that day, Coley showed the photograph to Hugh Aynesworth, an investigative journalist who worked for the Dallas Morning News. Aynesworth seemed interested in the story but it never appeared in the newspaper.

On 25th November, 1963, Coley began receiving anonymous phone calls. The calls suggested that Coley was in someway involved in the plot to kill JFK. However, the real intention was to intimidate Coley into silence about the the blood on the steps. Threats were made against Coley’s children. The couple understandably decided to keep quiet about the story. In fact, Coley’s wife and their children went into hiding. When Coley returned to the steps on the grassy knoll, the blood had been cleaned away.

On 27th November, 1963, a Time Magazine reporter arrived at the office. He wanted to interview Coley about the story but frightened about the consequences, he refused to speak to him.

The following week, two FBI agents arrived at the office and asked to speak to Coley and Jim Hood. They asked to see the photograph. They took this away plus the negative. The FBI told the two men: “For your benefit, it never happened… Just forget the entire incident; it never happened.”

The men took this advice. However, in 1988, a film crew from Los Angeles contacted Coley and asked him if he would be willing to be interviewed for a documentary they were making on Jack Ruby. Coley agreed and during the interview he told them the story of the blood on the steps. The reporter was fascinated with the story and he was filmed at the spot where the blood was found. It was assumed by the reporter, that someone had been hit in the crossfire and therefore confirmed the view that there must have been two gunman involved in the killing of JFK. Three days later the reporter phoned to say that the director of the documentary had decided not to use the section on the pool of blood. Coley was relieved as his wife had complained when she heard that he had told the reporter the story.

In 1990 Coley told the story to Wallace O. Chariton. He was convinced that Coley was telling the truth (by this time Hood and Mulkey were dead). Aynesworth was interviewed and he confirmed the story but claims that he was convinced that it was some sort of dark drink had been spilt on the steps.

Coley was working on the Henry Marshall case at the time. He therefore asked Clint Peoples about the story of the blood on the steps. Peoples, who was carrying out his own investigation into the JFK assassination at the time, admitted that he already knew about the story. What is more, he believed it was an important factor in explaining the mystery of the assassination.

What Chariton does not say in the article, is that Peoples claimed that he was on the verge of solving the case. He told several friends this at this time. Clint Peoples was killed shortly after Chariton’s book was published in 1991. His manuscript on the JFK assassination has never been found.

This subject was previously discussed here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6108

thanks alot

Facinating John - I do not recall having read that before - thanks.

Someday someone will take a closer look at the stairs and recognize that someone was squatting on them - maybe a photo or film will finally emerge, or a new eye witness. Whether it was a shooter, spotter, recorder, Patsy, etc. - still my unshaken position that someone was there at the time Kennedy rode past - and that 'magic' made him disappear. I do not believe that it was a simple innocent bystander. Perhaps fired upon as suggested by Hill, perhaps spotted by Press agent Roberts as he was leaving...who knows. Maybe it was the unnamed individual admitted to Parkland, and the source of the dead SS story.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=75218

- lee

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Evan :

Here are a few frames from the Darnell film showing the area.

at the top of the steps......

B

_________________________________

Great stuff, Bernice! Thanks for posting it!

What's particularly interesting to me is the the fact that, in the first and third frames that you posted, the detective or private citizen (or whatever he his) doesn't seem to be looking directly at the "liquid pool" (to use Roberdeau's terminology) which is indicated by a big white arrow in one of the frames you posted. So what's he looking at? The burger bag? The broken soda pop bottle?

On a separate issue, I've looked at Don Roberdeau's absolutely wonderful but somewhat-information-overloaded "plat" of Dealey Plaza many, many many many times, but for the life of me I can't find more than one "liquid pool" or pool of blood!!! The only one I can find is the "liquid pool" on the walkway near Roberdeau's self-labeled "Cupola Shelter #3" and "Burger Bag On Bench." Where is the other pool of blood that members of The Forum talk about? (In spite of what Mr. David G. Healy thinks of me, I actually do believe that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, and yes, I'd really like to know the answer to this (probably) very, very stupid question.) Bernice, James, Robin, Lee, John, Dan ... anyone?

Thanks

--Thomas

__________________________________

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I do not know Thomas, perhaps there were drips of blood, leading away,

that they were observing ?????

No broken pop bottles were ever reported,nor seen, or mentioned other than by

Marilyn Sitzman, but not till 67 ?..I believe..

Below is the photo, Jack Whites work showing according to Mel Couch's

description the corner where he saw the blood...

A link to the Testimony of Malcolm Couch in which he speaks of the blood..

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/couch.htm

and a scanned copy of a couple of pages from a book with his recall...

B

Edited by Bernice Moore
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I do not know Thomas, perhaps there were drips of blood, leading away,

that they were observing ?????

No broken pop bottles were ever reported,nor seen, or mentioned other than by

Marilyn Sitzman, but not till 67 ?..I believe..

Below is the photo, Jack Whites work showing according to Mel Couch's

description the corner where he saw the blood...

A link to the Testimony of Malcolm Couch in which he speaks of the blood..

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/couch.htm

and a scanned copy of a couple of pages from a book with his recall...

B

____________________________

Thanks Bernice,

Actually (don't you just hate it when someone starts a sentence with "Actually,..." ?), I've already seen that photo and those documents several times. I'm just surprised that Don doesn't have the Mal Couch blood-sighting (at the west end of the School Book Depository) on his "plat." I realize, of course, that it's probably there and I'm just to darn "blind" to see it!

Thanks,

--Thomas

____________________________

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I do not know Thomas, perhaps there were drips of blood, leading away,

that they were observing ?????

No broken pop bottles were ever reported,nor seen, or mentioned other than by

Marilyn Sitzman, but not till 67 ?..I believe..

Below is the photo, Jack Whites work showing according to Mel Couch's

description the corner where he saw the blood...

A link to the Testimony of Malcolm Couch in which he speaks of the blood..

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/couch.htm

and a scanned copy of a couple of pages from a book with his recall...

B

Would Jack agree that this area is almost precisely where we see the Dept of Works car parked later on?

Thomas - the other pool is located closer to the corner. Follow the corner of the Elm St extension and Elm St along the walk to the pergola and you'll see it.

I don't have access to my files at the moment or I'd show the aerial view I made one.

Possibles

1. Blood on stairs

2. Blood behind retaining wall

3. Blood at sidewalk on side of TSBD

4. Blood on sidewalk at Pergola walkway from corner of Elm and Houston

Again, it is my distinct impression that Hill was totally screwed by Specter, and forced to place all of the items she witnessed into a diagram no bigger than her pinky. It's a shame, because her exhibit was essentially made worthless.

- lee

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I thought he did.......But....will have to take a look sometime..

Why not email him, and ask..?? or perhaps others will be around

later, and be able to tell you exactly....

There is nothing as far as I know, that Don has not taken the time to

include for all.....

Here is the information on Jimmy Darnell's actions on Nov.22/63....

FYI....

Jimmy Darnell: POTP : Trask

He had been at Love Field, WBAP had Bureau Chief Kerr and cameraman/reporters

Robert Welch and Jimmy Darnell on

assignment. and had been instructed if any incident occurred

during the motorcade that he was to stay at the scene.He was

their representative in the motorcade, earning a degree in a

double major in Journalism and Education and had been working

for WBAP-TV since Jan.61.His wife Ruth worked for the Burglary

and Theft Bureau of the DPD, as a secretary.

In camera car #3 ,some 8 cars behind the Presidents ,allocated

for the local press, a 1964 Chevrolet Impala, grey, Darnell sat

in the rear drivers side of the seat, with Bob Jackson and Tom Dillard.

He jumped from the car at the time of the shooting along with James

R. Underwood and still cameraman Tom Dillard. (Just before the car

was moving around the corner onto Elm. page 423 ).In two brief FBI

reports dealing with Darnell's activites, it relates: Darnell "....stated

he heard the first shot and thought it was a back-fire from an

automobile. The second shot he thought was a firecracker. He stated,

however, after the second shot he realized from the confusion that

something had happened and he jumped out of the car and ran

towards the President's car. However,he was unable to see anything

and did not get any photographs. He said he noticed parents were

throwing their children to the ground and covering them with their

bodies and that he took photographs of this activity." ( FBI report by

agents Richard E. Harrison & George W.Carlson. 11/29/63).page 422

After jumping from the car Darnell ran down the South side of

Elm Street ,westerly towards the area where he had seen bodies

falling.

Raising his camera to his eyes, he managed to record some 9-1/2

seconds of activity in two film sequences. In the first five second

shot Darnell has pointed his camera across Elm St. as first a car

and then the station wagon (the 11th and 12th cars behind the

President's vehicle.)-(page 422...also shows a frame of Darnell's,

across the street can be seen AP photographer Jim Altgens looking

to his right,

apparently waiting for a chance to cross the street. To Altgens right

can be seen the Newman family on the grass. Bill Newman is on his

knees and with his right hand hits the ground three hard whacks

venting his frustration. A man runs by from camera right down the

sidewalk ,while a young boy runs down the grassy incline towards

the same direction. This view was also made by still photographer

Harry Cabluck from aboard a press bus in the motorcade as it passed

by.

Just after this Darnell shoots a shorter clip as the third bus in the

motorcade carrying the "official" party and a black and white police

cruiser passes in the foreground. Panning to the left Darnell follows

the vehicles as they speed towards the railroad overpass while

people dash across the street towards the grassy knoll.This film

and other brief clips made by Darnell were shown on NBC, coupled

with other films and narrated by Robert MacNeil as part of the days

synopsis.It was broadcast nationally at about midnight Eastern Time

that Friday.page 423,

He is seen on the South side of Elm, to his left in a long dark coat

and white pants is Mary Moorman, now back on her feet, looking

westerly down Elm St. her polaroid visible in her left hand. From

the right the influx of people begin to pour into the area.The wood

panel 1964 Mercury Colony Park station wagon that proceeds the

first Bus ( it appears in Bond ,to me the distance dividing the two

is approx. 25 to 30 feet .page 210) Seconds later Bond clicks off

another shot as the first bus approaches the underpass. A sedan

carrying Morning News reporters, had squeezed into the motorcade

between the two buses, and are shown in the camera's view.

(Bond 6..page 211).

The Newman family ( Bond 7..page 211), has gotten up from

the ground.

He remained in Dealey Plaza area for some time, filming and

interviewing witnesses, along with Mary Moorman and Jean Hill.

page 423.

One of the first broadcast witnesses was with Jean Hill. Jimmy Darnell

had come upon her in the press room. At 1.21pm CST, WBAP's

Tom Whalen played over the NBC network an interview arranged

through Darnell, which he had just audio-taped a few minutes earlier.

Darnell was later joined at the Court Building by NBC cameraman

Henry Kokajan, who had brought with him WBAP's only sound camera

which had originally been set up at the Trade Mart. By about 3.16 CST

,NBC was again reporting through its WBAP affiliate on witnesses to

the shooting, and Moorman's photo of the President was shown on

camera followed by a filmed interview of the two women. (page 237-8).

Following his work in Dealey, Darnell went back to Love Field and was

able to film the President's coffin being loaded onto AF 1 at about 2.15pm.

taking it from the perimeter of the secure area. Head of police security

for Love Field, Newton Fisher ,is said to have confiscated Darnell's film,

saying

"That's sacrilegious. !!" Three film clips shown on Fri. night by NBC

along with other Darnell shots do show long shots of the ambulance

arriving at AF1 ,and might in fact have been Darnell's work?. page 423.

From The Great Zapruder Film Hoax..re Love Field and filming the Coffin.

Gary Mack ARRB statement 11/18/94.

Dr.Hall: Do you have any knowledge , --snip--of any former public

officials who took with them materials related to the assassination

that are now held in private hands that would otherwise be deemed

public documents?

Gary Mack: One comes to mind, A local photographer who worked

for the NBC affiliate named Jimmy Darnell, filmed the loading of the

President's casket on to Air Force One. He filmed it from close range,

and after he was done, a Dallas Police Officer ( Newton Fisher) came

up to him and said you shouldn't have done that, that is sacrilegious,

give me your camera. Jimmy had just joined ( Jan. 61) the station

and hadn't been in the business very long and he did turn over the

camera or gave him the film, and the officer ---Jimmy knew the

officer's name and he told me the officer's name ,and I don't

recall it. It will come to me in a minute.

I called him (the officer, Newton Fisher?)and he had no knowledge

of such a film and didn't recall doing that, but was not really surprised,

it was not the kind of thing he would be enthusiastic to admit..

He said if he had done that, he would have given it to Chief Curry,

which means it would have gone to the FBI, so the station filed a

FOI request right away and got an answer within like four days

that their files do not have any such film.

Since there is such controversy, and legitimate controversy, I

should add about the condition of the President's body in Dallas

versus the body in Washington, I would douibt very highly there

would be anything significant in this film of loading the body

onto Air Force One, but you never know, and what else was on

that film has also vanished..page 477-8. TGZFH.Dr.J.Fetzer

POTP: Trask.

After leaving Love Field ,Jimmy Darnell went to the DPD and stayed

there into the early hours of Sat. morning." I filmed Oswald when

they brought him into the "show up" room ".Oswald's brief showing

to the hoards of press at an assembly room late that Friday.

Darnell's wife Ruth had been re-assigned, temporarily into Chief

Curry's office to help answer the deluge of phone calls from

all over the world.

Jimmy was off duty on Sat, and on duty Sunday,and at Parkland

Hospital to catch up on Governor Connally's condition,he was there

and filmed Oswald being brought in following his being shot by

Jack Ruby.

POTP: page 430.

Jimmy Darnell also took footage of the TSBD's exterior view

of the building and the unfolding activity around it. page 519.POTP.

He also filmed the pool of red liquid, in a 5 second snippet of film

for WBAP-TV, (which BTW later became KXAS-TV.) from the top

of the knoll steps..panning left and tilting slightly down to show

the pool,of liquid. A small crowd milling around, people walking

around it, also filming the Police in and around the knoll, and

railroad yard to the west. Filming officer James Foster on the

sidewalk at the top of the steps near the red liquid, with the wood

fence at his rear.... National Nightmare page 91.

Below is a Wilma Bond photo...

That is he, Jimmy Darnell, facing the bus filming, in the brown

suit, Mary Moormen is seen to his left..

B.......

Edited by Bernice Moore
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[...] Thomas - the other pool is located closer to the corner. Follow the corner of the Elm St extension.

___________________________________________

Thanks Lee,

Finally "got it!" No wonder it was hard to find-- vertical writing and a small arrow pointing to a little red spot. Oh well, it was worth it. Thanks for putting it on your map, Don!

Thanks!

--Thomas

___________________________________________

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