the 1963 Secret Service

[Duke Lane]

I hope that I don't anger too many of you, however, my personal opinion only, is that some of you are going far out of you way to bolster the plans of the major conspirators, by placing the blame on lesser people who had no inkling of what was transpiring.

This is getting so ridiculous that I will make a few more comments and then remove myself from further discussion. ...

My problem with many posters on this forum, and I don't care how much you dislike this, is that you are too accustomed to opening your big mouths before opening your unknowing minds. ....

Charles Black

No need to be shy, Charles; tell us how you really feel!

[Ron Ecker]

Charlie,

Why didn't you answer my question about Greer and, what was it, "the enemy of unknown strength on the high ground in front"? After I asked the question, you claimed you were being ignored.

Greer testified that he saw nothing on the underpass that concerned him. Greer testified that he did not hesitate to stomp on the accelerator and charge forward and out of there when he realized something was wrong.

So who is right, you or him? If you are right, then I assume you think Greer was an unmitigated xxxx and perjurer. Correct?

You don't have to answer, but don't claim you are being ignored.

Ron

[Chuck Robbins]

I hope that I don't anger too many of you, however, my personal opinion only, is that some of you are going far out of you way to bolster the plans of the major conspirators, by placing the blame on lesser people who had no inkling of what was transpiring.

This is getting so ridiculous that I will make a few more comments and then remove myself from further discussion. This is not so dissimilar from the plan to remove U.S. government personnel and assets as participants in the shooting and placing the blame on foreign villains such as mafia and Cubans. The thought of participation by WASPS is unacceptable to the delicate perceptions of some of you. Many of you are very quick to point fingers for "any ridiculous reason".

OF COURSE on orders from the Presidential protection team, there was every right for the DPD, the Secret Service, The FBI etc. to CLEAR any area deemed necessary for Presidential protection...if necessary by physical or deadly force. To argue otherwise is ABSURD. YES ! The advance vehicles "should have radioed to the following vehicles to stop until they secured the area". If there was a "breach of security" it was much more likely in this area than attempting to blame the SS agents in the Presidents vehicle for hesitating to "drive into an ambush".

Do any of you who believe Greer and Kellerman to have been cowards, think that "these cowards" would have voluntarily and knowingly been in a vehicle that they knew was to come under "heavy incoming gunfire"?

My problem with many posters on this forum, and I don't care how much you dislike this, is that you are too accustomed to opening your big mouths before opening your unknowing minds. It appears that most of you who very obviously know little or nothing about neither "security" nor military operations, become self proclaimed experts....based soley on what you have been steered toward by those other "unknowings" or deceptors which preceded you.

I now think that some of you "intellects" should notify the moderators of another stupid "uncultured American", that is DISRUPTING the forum and insinuating that some members of this forum "allow their FINGERS to handle their thinking".

Charles Black

P.S.

What is amazing to me, is that the female members of this forum, seem far more in tune to the reality of security and military matters than many of you "gentlemen scholars"! Too many opinions ! Too little "experience" in the realities of crises behaviour !

Take 2 valium and get some rest.

[Peter McGuire]

I second that suggestion, and Mr. Black, why don't you act like a man ( grown up) and simply discuss these issues?

Edited May 24, 2007 by Peter McGuire

[Charles Black]

Hello all

As I firmly believe that what I have posted to be far closer to the truth, than attempting to imply that this was a conspiracy "of so many", that even lower levels of the Secret Service were involved, I certainly can retract nothing.

Duke thank you! Perhaps I have finally overcome my life long shyness.

Ron. I did answer your questions. If nearly everyone else in the Plaza ackowleged that there were persons on the overpass, and it is confirmed by photographs, why would you propose that Greer did not see them? His "advanced age ? As to his confusing statements....this "long time / old time agent", was no doubt torn between what he was "no doubt" advised to say.....and the traumatization of what he had experienced. I attempt to sort, the "ideals" from the reality", of very confusing and passionate experiences. His statements did not come some 43 years later in the confines of a forum. He was confused.....as should everyone have been.

Persons can be trained for potential situations....the stark reality of "sudden trauma" is not one of them.

Chuck. You are right. I am a little overly passionate regarding what I sincerely believe to be a misrepresentation of what occurred. I believe that Greer, as reported by some, "repositioned the autombile in the street, and followed the correct impulse to stop", before heading directly into what may have been armed assailants who were both forward and above. Why do you "Greer Condemners" feel that it would have been inappropriate to stop and "clear the vehicle of its occupants". What type of training, that is so advanced from mine, taught you to "charge an unknown enemy force", when your primary duty was the protection of your "cargo" ?

Peter. I feel that I both am and that I act like a man, who has been more highly trained in, and exposed to situations which "most of you" have not. From where does your "tactical proficiency derive? Is it "acceptance of, popular but false perceptions", that separates real men from those unfortunates like myself ?

I appreciate what was meant to be the derogatory type of replies which I expected and consequently received. The repetition of my thought process, has even further convinced me that my initial observations and opinions were and are correct.

There are a great many people who have actually "done" what a great many of you have experienced only in a classroom or from pages of a book.

Please however, do not asuume that just because some have "experienced".... that they have failed to study the "same books" to which you have been exposed.

I remain even more sincere regarding my comments, if that is possible, than my initial postings.

As I previously indicated, there is no reason for me to post further on this subject, as some of you already have "The Only Answers Which Would Satisfy You".

If it pleases you, please continue to believe that Greer and Kellerman were an integral part of the "Conspiracy".....and furthermore, JFK would probably still be alive, had these S S agents been exposed to the same combat experience as you no doubt have.

Please continue with your well founded theories, and merely pardon my brief interruption !

Charles Black

[Ron Ecker]

If nearly everyone else in the Plaza ackowleged that there were persons on the overpass, and it is confirmed by photographs, why would you propose that Greer did not see them? His "advanced age ?

I assume that he was lying. Perhaps he couldn't see the north end of the underpass as he started down Elm because of the curve in the street. But by the time he got to Z312 I believe he would have a clear view of the north end, when he wasn't busy looking back at JFK (whom he claimed he couldn't see).

As to his confusing statements....this "long time / old time agent", was no doubt torn between what he was "no doubt" advised to say.....and the traumatization of what he had experienced.

IOW you agree he was lying. Perhaps someone "advised" him to do so, which I believe would be the crime of suborning perjury.

BTW why do you suppose Greer gave JFK's clothes to Rybka at Andrews AFB with instructions to take them to the White House and stow them in a locker, making them unavailable at autopsy? (Though I believe only the late-arriving Finck among the three stooges expressed any desire to see them.) Do you suppose someone "advised" him to do so?

[Peter McGuire]

Hello all

Why do you "Greer Condemners" feel that it would have been inappropriate to stop and "clear the vehicle of its occupants". What type of training, that is so advanced from mine, taught you to "charge an unknown enemy force", when your primary duty was the protection of your "cargo" ?

Charles Black

Because they stopped the car and just LOOKED BACK. If they were really intent on protecting their "cargo" , they would have moved to cover said cargo with their bodies. And they would have took out their weapons in a show of force. They would have done a lot of things that bodygaurds do. The one thing that bodyguards do not do when shots are fired is just sit there.

[Michael Hogan]

From The Third Alternative--Survivor's Guilt by Vince Palamara, page 22:

Deadly Delay on Elm Street

Forty-nine witnesses (8 police officers, 6 Secret Service agents, 31 spectators, 2 Presidential aides, 1 Senator and Governor Connally) and 3 films (Zapruder, Nix, and Muchmore) document Greer's deceleration of the Presidential limousine, as well as his two looks back at JFK (which he denied doing). This was an unbelievable breakdown of the President's vital security. In addition, Greer disobeyed his superior, ASAIC Roy Kellerman, who told him to "get out of line--we're hit" BEFORE the fatal third shot arrived. Both government investigations ignored these extremely negligent actions by the driver.

Candid comments about Greer's (in)actions:

1) SAIC Roy Kellerman: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me." (Death of a President, p 160)

2) Personal Secretary to Jackie Kennedy, Mary Gallagher: Mrs Kennedy "mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, he might as well have been Miss Shaw!" (My Life with Jacqueline Kennedy, p 342)

3) Secret Service agent Marty Venker confirms that the agent Jackie was referring to above was Agent Greer: "If the agent had hit the gas before the third shot, she griped, Jack might still be alive." (Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent, p 25)

4) Presidential aide Kenneth O'Donnell: "...if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? (Quoted by Marrs, Crossfire, p 248) Dave Powers expressed the very same thoughts on CBS during the 25th anniversary of the assassination. If that wasn't enough, ARRB director Tom Samoluk told me in 1996 that Powers agrees with my take on the Secret Service, based on a lengthy interview he had with the gentleman during the process of obtaining his film from the JFK library!

5) Jackie Kennedy (December 1963): "You should get yourself a good driver...so that nothing ever happens to you." (This was said to Mary Gallagher, also in Dallas on 11/22/1963) (My Life with Jacqueline Kennedy, p 351)

There is much more about Greer and his strange actions that day in Palamara's book. Palamara does state that Greer was a prime suspect in "another cover-up of sorts." Palamara's final conclusion is that Greer was a "patsy."

Edited May 28, 2007 by Michael Hogan

[Myra Bronstein]

From The Third Alternative--Survivor's Guilt by Vince Palamara, page 22:

Deadly Delay on Elm Street

Forty-nine witnesses (8 police officers, 6 Secret Service agents, 31 spectators, 2 Presidential aides, 1 Senator and Governor Connally) and 3 films (Zapruder, Nix, and Muchmore) document Greer's deceleration of the Presidential limousine, as well as his two looks back at JFK (which he denied doing). This was an unbelievable breakdown of the President's vital security. In addition, Greer disobeyed his superior, ASAIC Roy Kellerman, who told him to "get out of line--we're hit" BEFORE the fatal third shot arrived. Both government investigations ignored these extremely negligent actions by the driver.

Candid comments about Greer's (in)actions:

1) SAIC Roy Kellerman: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me." (Death of a President, p 160)

2) Personal Secretary to Jackie Kennedy, Mary Gallagher: Mrs Kennedy "mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, he might as well have been Miss Shaw!" (My Life with Jacqueline Kennedy, p 342)

3) Secret Service agent Marty Venker confirms that the agent Jackie was referring to above was Agent Greer: "If the agent had hit the gas before the third shot, she griped, Jack might still be alive." (Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent, p 25)

4) Presidential aide Kenneth O'Donnell: "...if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? (Quoted my Marrs, Crossfire, p 248) Dave Powers expressed the very same thoughts on CBS during the 25th anniversary of the assassination. If that wasn't enough, ARRB director Tom Samoluk told me in 1996 that Powers agrees with my take on the Secret Service, based on a lengthy interview he had with the gentleman during the process of obtaining his film from the JFK library!

5) Jackie Kennedy (December 1963): "You should get yourself a good driver...so that nothing ever happens to you." (This was said to Mary Gallagher, also in Dallas on 11/22/1963) (My Life with Jacqueline Kennedy, p 351)

There is much more about Greer and his strange actions that day in Palamara's book. Palamara does state that Greer was a prime suspect in "another cover-up of sorts." Palamara's final conclusion is that Greer was a "patsy."

Persuasive stuff.

I don't know of anyone who has researched the SS more thoroughly than Palamara.

Talbot even refers to Palamara's findings in "Brothers."

[Charles Black]

Everyone

Please do not mis perceive my comments regarding Greer's actions. I am not in any way stating that if Greer had Immediately accelerated, that it is not "possible" that the fatal bullet may have missed. I also have never questioned Mr. Palmara's most in depth secret service study.

My point was "Completely Different". Some of you are attempting to "ASSERT" that Greer slowed and looked twice to the rear because he was a knowing and active participant to the murder......both I AND Mr. Palmara disagree. He was not an ACTIVE CONSPIRATOR.

My contention has only and repeatedly been.....that unless Secret Service Training was DIFFERENT from ANY military crises training in the world....that the Driver who is approaching a potential ambush, already taking incoming fire, and who has as his foremost responsibility, the protection of his cargo....he is not to charge into an enemy of "unknown strength" that is already firing at him from the ABOVE and forward. This is against all military and crises reasoning and to argue this is "ridiculous" and completely unfounded.

The period of time involved MAY have been lengthy enough for Kellerman to have at least been "heading toward the President", which he wasn't. If the car stopped completely and then immediately accelerated on orders from Kellerman....what do "any of you" think that you could have done were you Greer ? Do you consider yourselves Supermen ?

It matters little to me the "hearsay" of what "words" may or may not have been uttered in this time of crises...and at such a time, words mean very little and can often not be remembered.

I believe that the OVER ALL Secret Service "lack of response" was grossly negligent and "did" aid in the success of the assassination. But I feel that Greer started to act in direct accordance with military training. I do not see the satisfaction gained by making Greer a scapegoat or trying to expand the Conspiracy to the "lower levels" of Presidential protection.

I would look at the "route planning" and approval as much more significant in Conspiracy than Mr. Greer. But....Greer is convenient. I feel that he Instinctively began to take the correct action and was ordered otherwise !

My Point: Greer is not KEY to the conclusion of this case, nor were the SS Agents who were out drinking prior !

We need to raise our sights....as we already have had enough PATSIES !

Charles Black

[Michael Hogan]

My last post on this thread will mention only two aspects concerning Mr. Greer....

We know from experience that you are subject to changing your mind.

This is getting so ridiculous that I will make a few more comments and then remove myself from further discussion.

See above.

Of course he did not want to drive further into an ambush until ordered by Kellerman to "go"!

I don't know much about secret service procedure....

I don't either, but according to Palamara, Greer disobeyed the command from his superior (Kellerman) until it was too late. This would seem to be a violation of Secret Service procedure.

It appears that most of you who very obviously know little or nothing about neither "security" nor military operations, become self proclaimed experts....

You admit you don't know much about Secret Service procedures, yet you seem to have become an expert of sorts on Greer's actions.

As I previously indicated, there is no reason for me to post further on this subject, as some of you already have "The Only Answers Which Would Satisfy You".

I'm thinking you're just kidding now....

If it pleases you, please continue to believe that Greer and Kellerman were an integral part of the "Conspiracy".....and furthermore, JFK would probably still be alive, had these S S agents been exposed to the same combat experience as you no doubt have.

Who on this thread stated that Greer and Kellerman were an integral part of the "Conspiracy?"

My point was "Completely Different". Some of you are attempting to "ASSERT" that Greer slowed and looked twice to the rear because he was a knowing and active participant to the murder......both I AND Mr. Palmara disagree. He was not an ACTIVE CONSPIRATOR.

Again, who asserted that? Why not address your post to him or her? Or them?

Since I do not feel that the Secret Service, as a whole, had anything to gain or lose regardless of whom they were protecting, I cannot feel how certain leadership within this unit, would be able to "let down the guard", without it being quite obvious to the entire agency.....which in my opinion was much too large to have been so chanced.

I would like opinions on how a small number within the leadership of this group, could have "truly covertly" done this ? I feel that this would have been nearly impossible.

You solicited opinions when you started this thread. In reading the subsequent posts, it appears to be you that steered the discussion toward Greer and his reluctance to overcome "military" instincts. In no way could Greer fall within the descriptions of "certain leadership" when it came to this "unit" of the Secret Service. He was a driver.

For a thorough examination of the leadership of the Secret Service as it pertains to the murder of President Kennedy, see Vince Palamara's book. After all, his opinions and research should count for more than the many posters on this forum, "that are too accustomed to opening [their] big mouths before opening [their] unknowing minds."

[Charles Black]

Michael

Your immediately prior post should grade out as quite irrational to anyone that has followed this thread ! You are implying that you did not "strongly" intimate that Greer was a part of the conspiracy. You have further strongly inimated that in the appx. 2 1/2 seconds, maximum, involved, "most" similarly positioned and trained persons Would Have acted differently. You attempt to make it sound as if a lengthy period of time transpired and that Greer was reluctant to proceed because he was attempting to give the gunmen a larger window of opportunity. I don't "know" that Greer was told "twice" in this minimal time period to "move out".

I do know that it would have been "the improper" judgement that would DEFY all reasonable military procedure. It was improper procedure for Kellerman to not have attempted to reach JFK.

I feel, as I stated before, Greer's actions were instinctive (as a result of procedure) to not stupidly approach an ambush!

I have no animous toward you Michael, but it seems that you are one of those many persons that, although you have no training or actual experience in such a military type situation, has decided that you know more regarding military tactics and response, than persons such as Robert E. Lee, Erwin Rommel, Napolean, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Sun Tsu and inumerable other very successful military tacticians.

In my opinion, you are simply entering an area of discussion in which the farther you attempt to proceed, the more of a fool that you make of youself.

You act as if you know more than those persons who "HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT".....because you have an "opinion". Nothing more! Obviously "NO" related training and ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE !

Yet...YOU are the knowing one !

If I have insulted you, I am sorry....BUT, you have begged for it !

Charles Black

[Peter McGuire]

It was improper procedure for Kellerman to not have attempted to reach JFK.

Charles Black

Alright. Fair enough. Greer has got some room but Kellerman certainly does not.

What kind of Secret Service Agent just sits there?

And then he is depicted as the hero who suppossedly told Greer to get out of there! I don't believe that.

"Kellerman's actions (or lack thereof) have been contrasted unfavorably with that of Agent Rufus Youngblood, who was sitting in the front passenger seat of Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson's car further back in the motorcade. As soon as he heard the shot, Agent Youngblood immediately left his seat and threw himself atop the vice president. Witnesses said he managed this before the fatal third shot was fired that killed Kennedy."

Greer meanwhile had a little stress , post assassination:

"Greer retired on disability from the Secret Service in 1966, citing a stomach ulcer that allegedly grew worse following the Kennedy assassination In 1973 he relocated to Waynesville, North Carolina, where he died of Cancer on February 23, 1985."

[Charles Black]

Hello Peter

Finally a reasonable response !

I would like it generally known that I have no personal interest in defending Greer, other than I hate to see someone being made a "scapegoat" for trying to follow what was no doubt his training procedures.

I was also tired of, for thirty years being told, that his "lack of proper reaction" was due to his "advanced age". As I mentioned in another post, he was only eight years older than John Kennedy and I don't feel that this made him either physically or mentally incapable of followng the accepted procedures. This man has even been seriously accused of becoming invisible for a few seconds, to all of the occupants of the limo, and shooting the President himself ! Regardless, it was not a "Proud Day" for the Secret Service as a whole !

There were many things that "could have" been done in a more acceptible manner....but not only by the Secret Service. Of all of the DPD and Sherrifs Dept. personnel.....no one returned fire or knew in which direction to point a weapon !

Charles Black

[Guest Mark Valenti]

I don't mean to trivialize the topic but there seems to be a belief that because a person has been trained to do a thing, he or she will do that thing perfectly when required to do so.

If you want to see proof that this simply isn't true when dealing with human beings, just watch any sporting event on any day of any week.

Here you'll see professional athletes who not only train at one point of their life but daily. They go through intense drills, they watch films of games, they study playbooks. They are coached to within an inch of their lives.

And yet...

On the field, when faced with a situation, they sometimes fail to execute the behavior that was so punishingly drilled into them. They pivot left instead of right, they kick a ball over a teammates' head. How does it happen? It's just human frailty. Lack of robotic perfection.

Once again, these are people are who trained with sophisticated behavior techniques. And yet they cannot do the thing expected of them 100 percent of the time.

All I'm saying is that it doesn't require a conspiracy to explain the reaction of the SS agents - it doesn't rule one out but there are far more logical answers.