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I have pursued issues in the JFK assassination to a strong degree by the ages old question of "who were the most likely beneficiaries" of JFK's removal ?

Some may agree and some may not, however I can make a pretty good case that if JFK had remained President, it would in no way be argued that the Military Industrial Complex (including oil industry) would suffer financially most seriously.

I feel also that the CIA felt that they were being cornered, and their powers were being seriously infringed upon by Jack and Bobby's interference, and certainly their lack of support.

Unlike many, I believe that the support of LBJ and JEH had to be "insured" prior to any other steps being taken. The precarious positions which these two found themselves in 1963 politically, and LBJ's additional potential of being criminally prosecuted as well as being dropped from the Democrat ticket in 1964, almost insured their support and partcipation, merely by studying both their "character flaws and history" !

I understand that JFK had individuals within his Secret Service who were not in "support" of him.

However the Secret Service is a large organization.

Even the White House and Protection Detail were numerous. Too numerous for it to have been a "unit participation" !

I also realize there has breen argument both pro and con regarding JFK's cooperation, or lack of, with this agency.

Since I do not feel that the Secret Service, as a whole, had anything to gain or lose regardless of whom they were protecting, I cannot feel how certain leadership within this unit, would be able to "let down the guard", without it being quite obvious to the entire agency.....which in my opinion was much too large to have been so chanced.

I would like opinions on how a small number within the leadership of this group, could have "truly covertly" done this ? I feel that this would have been nearly impossible.

Charles Black

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I have pursued issues in the JFK assassination to a strong degree by the ages old question of "who were the most likely beneficiaries" of JFK's removal ?

Some may agree and some may not, however I can make a pretty good case that if JFK had remained President, it would in no way be argued that the Military Industrial Complex (including oil industry) would suffer financially most seriously.

I feel also that the CIA felt that they were being cornered, and their powers were being seriously infringed upon by Jack and Bobby's interference, and certainly their lack of support.

Unlike many, I believe that the support of LBJ and JEH had to be "insured" prior to any other steps being taken. The precarious positions which these two found themselves in 1963 politically, and LBJ's additional potential of being criminally prosecuted as well as being dropped from the Democrat ticket in 1964, almost insured their support and partcipation, merely by studying both their "character flaws and history" !

I understand that JFK had individuals within his Secret Service who were not in "support" of him.

However the Secret Service is a large organization.

Even the White House and Protection Detail were numerous. Too numerous for it to have been a "unit participation" !

I also realize there has breen argument both pro and con regarding JFK's cooperation, or lack of, with this agency.

Since I do not feel that the Secret Service, as a whole, had anything to gain or lose regardless of whom they were protecting, I cannot feel how certain leadership within this unit, would be able to "let down the guard", without it being quite obvious to the entire agency.....which in my opinion was much too large to have been so chanced.

I would like opinions on how a small number within the leadership of this group, could have "truly covertly" done this ? I feel that this would have been nearly impossible.

Charles Black

This is one of the questions that puzzles me as well Charles.

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With all of the criticism that has been hurled at the Secret Service, and much of it rightfully so,

can anyone comment on this ?

It has been a continuous topic in assassination discussions since day one....can anyone explain the who, how and why of the Secret Service participantion, and what the Secret Service had to gain ?

Were most of these individuals unskilled and untrained ? Poor eyesight ? Bad hearing ?

No reflexes ?

If no one has an answer, do we owe this "elite group" an apology ?

Charles Black

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With all of the criticism that has been hurled at the Secret Service, and much of it rightfully so,

can anyone comment on this ?

It has been a continuous topic in assassination discussions since day one....can anyone explain the who, how and why of the Secret Service participantion, and what the Secret Service had to gain ?

Were most of these individuals unskilled and untrained ? Poor eyesight ? Bad hearing ?

No reflexes ?

If no one has an answer, do we owe this "elite group" an apology ?

Charles Black

Wasn't Emory Roberts rewarded with a job working for LBJ?

I know it's not much of a reward, but it's something.

And who knows, maybe money changed hands under the table.

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With all of the criticism that has been hurled at the Secret Service, and much of it rightfully so,

can anyone comment on this ?

It has been a continuous topic in assassination discussions since day one....can anyone explain the who, how and why of the Secret Service participantion, and what the Secret Service had to gain ?

Were most of these individuals unskilled and untrained ? Poor eyesight ? Bad hearing ?

No reflexes ?

If no one has an answer, do we owe this "elite group" an apology ?

Charles Black

When a coup goes down, the bodyguards have no choice but to serve their new master. The King will soon be dead.

A few resisted and were dealt with. And although assassination was in the air, most did not know until the last minute.

They were and are an "elite group" in my opinion based on the work that they did during Kennedy's term and to this day.

Although Kellerman, for example, just sat there and twiddled his thumbs while his President was getting killed, he sprang to action at the hospital and was a pretty assertive guy. I believe he is the Agent who knocked down a FBI Agent at Parkland. He was no dummy.

The Secret Service Agents were all over the Kennedys on a daily basis , like white on rice. Nothing went past them.

Why then, would they not move to protect a President when shots were fired?

Edited by Peter McGuire
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With all of the criticism that has been hurled at the Secret Service, and much of it rightfully so,

can anyone comment on this ?

It has been a continuous topic in assassination discussions since day one....can anyone explain the who, how and why of the Secret Service participantion, and what the Secret Service had to gain ?

Were most of these individuals unskilled and untrained ? Poor eyesight ? Bad hearing ?

No reflexes ?

If no one has an answer, do we owe this "elite group" an apology ?

Charles Black

When a coup goes down, the bodyguards have no choice but to serve their new master. The King will soon be dead.

A few resisted and were dealt with. And although assassination was in the air, most did not know until the last minute.

They were and are an "elite group" in my opinion based on the work that they did during Kennedy's term and to this day.

Although Kellerman, for example, just sat there and twiddled his thumbs while his President was getting killed, he sprang to action at the hospital and was a pretty assertive guy. I believe he is the Agent who knocked down a FBI Agent at Parkland. He was no dummy.

The Secret Service Agents were all over the Kennedys on a daily basis , like white on rice. Nothing went past them.

Why then, would they not move to protect a President when shots were fired?

Making such direct comments about the 1963 Secret Service seems to always be a thread killer. Why is that?

Until researchers come to grips with this awful fact , the assassination will never be fully understood. It was solved long ago.

The intelligence community knew almost immediately that it was an inside job. But it has been successfully covered up by the media machine to this day. No one wants to believe what these guys did when the shots rang out. It goes against every basic principle of human nature. That JFK's protectors could be so cold. It is simply too awful to bear.

The following perhaps should be on my thread about Jackie, since it is from the book " A Woman Named Jackie".

On pages 411-412 on that book, the authors accuse Jackie of lying about what happened between the first shots and the fatal one. They say , Jackie said she looked to the left , so unlike Mrs. Connally, she didn't push her husband down and out of danger. ( you can see from the Zapruder film she looks right) Even worse, her famous walk to the back of the limousine , was according to the authors , an act of self-preservation following Connally's famous comments: "THEY are going to kill us all"

Connally said he loved this country too much to elaborate on that comment.

In any event , it was JACKIES fault Kennedy was hit with the fatal shot and she also was a chicken and was fleeing the scene!

They go on to say..."the Secret Service covered up these facts , faithful to their code of silence...if anything, she ( Jackie) blamed others for her misfortune-the driver ( William Greer) of the presidential limousine for not pulling out and speeding up sooner; ( actually, he slowed down to a near halt and turned around twice) , John Connally for surviving the ambush and the Johnson's for daring to shatter her "kaleidoscopic dream".

Edited by Peter McGuire
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Making such direct comments about the 1963 Secret Service seems to always be a thread killer. Why is that?

Until researchers come to grips with this awful fact , the assassination will never be fully understood. It was solved long ago.

The intelligence community knew almost immediately that it was an inside job. But it has been successfully covered up by the media machine to this day. No one wants to believe what these guys did when the shots rang out. It goes against every basic principle of human nature. That JFK's protectors could be so cold. It is simply too awful to bear.

Very well put. But don't ignore the concerted attempt, particulary noticeable in literature of the 1960s, to make the SS appear the heroes of the moment. The biggest player on the block wants us to look anywhere but, and did from the outset.

And then there's a less sinister tendency at work. As Hazlitt put it - I paraphrase - "A whole town runs to see a fire; but the spectator by no means exults to see it extinguished." Long lists of, for example, Cuban names is all together more glamorous and exciting than Kellerman, Greer etc.

Paul

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I continue to maintain that I feel that the SS, as a unit, had NOTHING to benefit, as a result of the JFK hit.

I am somewhat inclined to believe, and I am aware of comments and testimony to the contrary, that it WAS JFK's desire to be MORE visible to his public.

JFK would not have called the entire protection detail to a meeting, and proclaimed that he wanted easier access and visibility of the spectators. He would have quietly said a very few words to one person....and it would have been done. Regardless of their "duty"....he was The Boss...right or wrong.

I know that it was not the SS that planned to Parade the Pres. into the kill zone. Despite the "glamor", these are not truly highly ranked individuals. They were down the pay grade from the FBI. I don't doubt that they, on their own, made very few decisions.

They were slow to react, however most of them, like the rest of the crowd, was hearing things that were not readily explainable. These men were experienced in the sound of gunfire, but they, as well many "equally experienced" Texans and military veterans, were describing sounds sounding like "firecrackers" ....which also may have actually been a planned part of the confusion. Some say they immediately identified gunfire....however these same individuals may also have so identified a motorcycle backfire.

We must remember that many of these SS Agents do not have the experience with firearms that many on this forum have.

It certainly was a most "uncommendable" performance, but I will continue my, against the grain belief, that the SS were not conspirators.

I feel that they, including Greer and Kellerman, responded poorly to a very confusing situation.

Were I the limo driver, and hearing what I thought might be gunshots, as I looked at the "overpass" that was not cleared, and was probably THE most ideal position for a shooter, I would seriously have questioned, whether I should proceed toward the shooter.....or stop....there was no way to turn left or right, nor was it possibe to back up.

Who could clearly argue that if the driver thought that the assassin was to the front and above, that it may have not been the correct decision to "Stop and Clear the Car of Targets"!

I often think that in many instances we are overly critical of some things that are merely human limitations. Spider Man and Superman were not present. Only persons with the normal human limitations.

I think that at times, there are those that would pretend, and perhaps actually believe, that this was a conspiracy of thousands.

Again ! Just a personal viewpoint.

Charles Black

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I feel that they, including Greer and Kellerman, responded poorly to a very confusing situation.

Were I the limo driver, and hearing what I thought might be gunshots, as I looked at the "overpass" that was not cleared, and was probably THE most ideal position for a shooter, I would seriously have questioned, whether I should proceed toward the shooter.....or stop....there was no way to turn left or right, nor was it possibe to back up.

Who could clearly argue that if the driver thought that the assassin was to the front and above, that it may have not been the correct decision to "Stop and Clear the Car of Targets"!

Do you mean the people on the overpass in this picture? A picture , unlike the cropped version of it that doesn't show people on the overpass.

The question has to be; why were these people allowed to be there in the first place? Wouldn't that create some security issues?

Ok, let's say Greer thought what you guess he was thinking. It didn't work very well, did it?

So quickly speeding up to 50 or miles per hour in that six seconds just might have been a better idea?

"Just a thought"

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Peter, a lot of folks have devoted time to studying why there were people on the overpass - certainly

it was a security problem and should not have happened. But if you really dig into the details you

find that DPD had virtually no concept of security for the motorcade. The officers in question were told

to station themselves at the east and west sides of the overpass...which put them over the street, not

at the ends of the bridge. Stupid yes... Beyond that, the people standing on the bridge are railroad

employees from the yards and Dallas office down the street. It was a railroad bridge so apparently the

officers had the idea that railroad people could come on it...one of the railroad company managers actually

screened the people at the officers requests - Sam Holland.

If you have a chance, get the DPD and Secret Service reports on the motorcade preparations, very useful

as a sanity check. As an illustration, the morning roll call briefing for the officers talks at length about

traffic control....little or no mention is made of security beyond controlling crowds in the streets. The officers

were not even warned that they should be facing the crowds, not looking at the motocade themselves...which

most of them ended up doing.

Dallas was very sensitive to demonstrotions and protests and had all types of security in place at the

Trade Mart where they really expected that sort of trouble - they had no concept of a sniper attack and

apparently from the SS lead man's notes of the prep meetings, neither did he. It was his first trip

advance assignment.

It all looks potentially conspiratorial after the fact but if nothing had happened nothing would have raised an

eyebrow, not even the SS drinking the evening before - which appears to have been fairly routine for

the White House Detail of the time.

-- Larry

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a lot of folks have devoted time to studying why there were people on the overpass - certainly

it was a security problem and should not have happened. But if you really dig into the details you

find that DPD had virtually no concept of security for the motorcade.

Larry,

Two things point toward conspiratorial presence of people on the overpass. One, people standing over Elm at the north end would divert attention from anyone who might be on the south end, probably behind the slanting wall. So those railroad workers were handy as a means to divert attention. And two, there was a mystery train crossing on the overpass at the time of the shooting, a train that no one in the area saw or heard except the two police officers stationed on the overpass. The effect of this imaginary train was to prevent the officer on the west side from seeing anything that he did not want to see to the south at the time of the shooting.

Ron

Edited by Ron Ecker
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Ron, as with most things in the Plaza (and elsewhere) its easy enough to read conspiracy into virtually anything -

and I surely have no way of knowing there was none in operation on the overpass.

However, Sam Holland very clearly described coming up to the overpass with other railroad folks, being asked

by the officers to review and screen people and help them make sure that regular "civilians" were not coming up

there. After the fact that looks incredibly stupid...but I have no reason to disbelive Holland.

As to the mystery train passing right after the lead cars went by, only one officer mentioned that (and Ed Hoffman

as well) and certainly I think there is something strange with that. I hold it as an open question. And it was that

officer that came down and into the grass south of Elm and investigated the supposed bullet in the grass there - calling

for the CSI folks to check it out (which they did and either did not report on it or the reports missing).

However, I see nothing going on with all this that directly supports some major Secret Service participation in the

conspiracy. Beyond that, I would encourage everyone to really read all the details of the SS and DPD preparations

as background.....it can clear up a lot of loose ends.

Personally, I think anyone looking for a diversion will find it in the smoke/noise over on the knoll....which brought everybody

to focus on that area over anything else. Greer may well have been slowed down by seeing folks on the bridge but surely

multiple gunshots in the car and yelling from right behind him would have done that in any event.

-- Larry

a lot of folks have devoted time to studying why there were people on the overpass - certainly

it was a security problem and should not have happened. But if you really dig into the details you

find that DPD had virtually no concept of security for the motorcade.

Larry,

Two things point toward conspiratorial presence of people on the overpass. One, people standing over Elm at the north end would divert attention from anyone who might be on the south end, probably behind the slanting wall. So those railroad workers were handy as a means to divert attention. And two, there was a mystery train crossing on the overpass at the time of the shooting, a train that no one in the area saw or heard except the two police officers stationed on the overpass. The effect of this imaginary train was to prevent the officer on the west side from seeing anything that he did not want to see to the south at the time of the shooting.

Ron

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Sam Holland very clearly described coming up to the overpass with other railroad folks, being asked

by the officers to review and screen people and help them make sure that regular "civilians" were not coming up

there. After the fact that looks incredibly stupid...but I have no reason to disbelive Holland.

I don't disbelieve Holland either. What I'm suggesting is that someone in DPD may have had a reason to allow railroad workers onto the overpass, letting Holland screen them.

As to the mystery train passing right after the lead cars went by, only one officer mentioned that (and Ed Hoffman

as well) and certainly I think there is something strange with that.

Both officers on the overpass testified about the train. Did Hoffman say a train was passing at the time of the shooting?
I see nothing going on with all this that directly supports some major Secret Service participation in the conspiracy.

It would be DPD participation. Off topic perhaps, but I was responding to the issue of people being allowed on the overpass.

Greer may well have been slowed down by seeing folks on the bridge
Greer testified that he saw noticed nothing, whether people or other objects, on the overpass. Edited by Ron Ecker
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Yes Ron, in Ed's "Eyewitness" booklet he mentions a train passing something like two to three minutes after the

President's car passed by - which does clearly raise some issues about the officer's remark who said the train

blocked his view at the time of the shooting.

I'm with you now - certainly I would not be beyond thinking that there might have been some hanky panky up

there - but if so I would align it with subverting the DPD and not Secret Service conspiracy.

There is also reason to belive that at least one active duty DPD officer was playing a role behind the north knoll

fence - personally I think Ruby may have been used to recruit DPD officers for what they thought were very

minor matters that day but were in reality support roles.

-- Larry

Sam Holland very clearly described coming up to the overpass with other railroad folks, being asked

by the officers to review and screen people and help them make sure that regular "civilians" were not coming up

there. After the fact that looks incredibly stupid...but I have no reason to disbelive Holland.

I don't disbelieve Holland either. What I'm suggesting is that someone in DPD may have had a reason to allow railroad workers onto the overpass, letting Holland screen them.

As to the mystery train passing right after the lead cars went by, only one officer mentioned that (and Ed Hoffman

as well) and certainly I think there is something strange with that.

Both officers on the overpass testified about the train. Did Hoffman say a train was passing at the time of the shooting?
I see nothing going on with all this that directly supports some major Secret Service participation in the conspiracy.

It would be DPD participation. Off topic perhaps, but I was responding to the issue of people being allowed on the overpass.

Greer may well have been slowed down by seeing folks on the bridge
Greer testified that he saw noticed nothing, whether people or other objects, on the overpass.
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Larry,

In a nutshell, we have evidence that the fatal head shot came from the area of the south end of the overpass. This source of the shot was persuasively argued by Al Carrier, and is also now the opinion of blood spatter expert Sherry Gutierrez. Now consider that we have a bunch of people on the north end, who would unwittingly distract attention from the south end, and we have a police officer who sees a non-existent train that blocks his view of the south end.

It all fits pretty neatly, doesn't it?

Ron

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