Thomas Graves Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Do we know who this guy is being led away from the TSBD? For a couple days, I have been digging up old threads, and viewing info on this and other forums about the photo that James posted of the young man in the short sleeve white shirt. He appears to be young enough to be Rowland, who was 18 at that time. And like Rowland, he saw something in the upper floor window(s) of the TSBD. But there are other observations that lead me to believe this man is not Arnold Rowland as I originally thought. In the Nix film, there is a passing view of Rowland standing with his wife on Houston Street as the limo passes. Rowland is wearing a long dark overcoat, and also is wearing glasses. Below is an excerpt of WC testimony: Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing? Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it. Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket? Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat. Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves? Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves? Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat? Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf. The young man in the photo posted by James Richards is wearing only a short sleeve white shirt. The sport jacket, overcoat, glasses and gloves are missing. Also missing is Arnold's wife, Barbara Rowland. We know from their WC testimony that they were both taken to the Dallas Sheriff's Office where they were interviewed by officers. Forrest Sorrels also interviews the couple while they are in the office. One more thing. In JFK The Lost Tapes there is a brief scene showing the back of a man and woman being escorted away from the front of the TSBD. The couple appear to be wearing attire similar to the Rowlands as they appear in the brief glimpse we see in the Nix film. Importantly, the man is still wearing his overcoat. I now believe this couple to be Arnold and Barbara Rowland. I do not have the DVD so I currently cannot do a screenshot, but the scene is right around the 30-31 minute mark. I am back to square one on the ID of the young man in the short sleeve white shirt. Below is a list of people who claimed to see a Rifle, a Rifleman, or individuals in the company of a man with a weapon, on the upper floors of the TSBD: Howard Brennan Richard Randolph Carr Malcolm Couch James Crawford Robert Edwards Amos Euins Ronald Fischer Ruby Henderson Robert H. Jackson Arnold Rowland Norman Similas Carolyn Walther James Worrel Do any of the above meet the physical description of the man we see in the photo posted by James, and also seen in a brief clip in JFK The Lost Tapes? Excellent post, Richard, as always! Until I set up a photobucket account (at your suggestion) and try to post some screenshots, I'll just make two little observations. In all of the films and photos I've seen of Rowland standing with his wife on Houston as the limo passes by, it looks like he's wearing sunglasses, not "regular" prescription glasses. ( In his WC testimony Rowland was asked if he (ever) wore "glasses," and he said 'No.") I know the guy in James' photo probably isn't Rowland, but it is possible that it is him and that he had simply taken his jacket(s) and sunglasses off after the assassination, and given them to his wife to "hold" for him as he walked off to be questioned. He might even have taken the jacket(s) off because of the excitement and the fact that it was warming up at that time of the day. The other observation that I'd like to make it that the young man who points to an upper floor window around 24:36 in The Lost JFK Tapes DVD (while being escorted to the front entrance by a police sergeant, a reporter, and a cameraman) is also wearing a white, short sleeved, buttoned-down shirt. Regarding the identity of the guy in James' photo and of the guy in the Lost Tapes DVD, the witnesses from your excellent list that I want to take a closer photographic "look" at are: Robert Edwards, Ronald Fischer, Robert H. Jackson, Norman Similas, and James Worrel. A few years ago, forum member Todd W. Vaughn claimed that the guy I've been talking about (who is viewable on the DVD around 24:36) was "quite possibly" Robert Edwards. (See thread "Is This Witness Arnold Rowland", post #21.) I just went to that post again and noticed a link to a short youtube video of the same "clip" that starts at 24:36 in the Lost JFK Tapes DVD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuFOp02l8EI If you look closely, you can see Inspector Sawyer in the background, and, I believe, Buddy Walthers, Alan Sweatt, and maybe even Roger Craig (or Bill Shelley??) entering the frame at the far left near the end. Also note that the white-shirted young man appears to be pointing in the direction of the traditional sixth floor "sniper's window" at the very beginning of the video, and it looks like he briefly cocks his head and looks in that direction, too. --Tommy Tommy, Looking forward to your screenshots. BTW, in the last part of your previous post, you asked about which format to use for photos. I would suggest uploading high resolution jpeg (jpg) photos to your image hosting site account. You can then link to them without taking up any space on the Ed Forum server. It’s possible Rowland could have taken off his glasses, overcoat and sport jacket and given them to his wife to hold. But there is something that makes me think that did not happen. If you scan forward to the spot in the Lost JFK Tapes that is shot from the camera looking down at the crowd in front of the TSBD from above, there is a brief segment of the Deputy escorting the White-short-sleeve-shirt guy towards the intersection. Immediately following that segment, there is a street level view of Rowland and his wife being escorted towards the Sheriff’s office. He is wearing the sports jacket, and they are being escorted by a different officer. It seems improbable that he would be wearing the overcoat and Jacket on Houston, take them off for a few minutes while in front of the TSBD, and then put the jacket back on as they walked back across Houston Street. I found a reference to another photo that might be valuable for this thread. In a review of “Biting the Elephant” by Rodger Remington, James DiEugenio references a photo in the Doubleday version of the Warren Report that shows James Worrel, Robert Jackson, Amos Euins, and Arnold Rowland. Unfortunately, I have the St. Martin’s Press version. If someone on the Ed Forum has the Doubleday version, perhaps they could scan the photo and post it. Good spot on Roger Craig appearing fleetingly on the left side of the film segment you mentioned. I agree it looks like him rather than Bill Shelley. If you are taking requests for screenshots, the shot of Rowland and his wife would be a nice one I have no idea what I'm doing as I try to post a screenshot here from photobucket, but I'm still trying... --Tommy Did I just get lucky, or is it like my dad told me when I was a boy-- "It all depends on how you hold your tongue!" It's from National Geographic's The Lost JFK Tapes. Is this what you meant, Richard? I didn't know Mrs. Rowland had such light colored hair... Edited December 18, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Do we know who this guy is being led away from the TSBD? James, Here's the same guy from a different angle in The Lost JFK Tapes. It looks like he's being escorted rather than arrested... Edited December 18, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 Do we know who this guy is being led away from the TSBD? For a couple days, I have been digging up old threads, and viewing info on this and other forums about the photo that James posted of the young man in the short sleeve white shirt. He appears to be young enough to be Rowland, who was 18 at that time. And like Rowland, he saw something in the upper floor window(s) of the TSBD. But there are other observations that lead me to believe this man is not Arnold Rowland as I originally thought. In the Nix film, there is a passing view of Rowland standing with his wife on Houston Street as the limo passes. Rowland is wearing a long dark overcoat, and also is wearing glasses. Below is an excerpt of WC testimony: Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing? Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it. Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket? Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat. Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves? Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves? Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat? Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf. The young man in the photo posted by James Richards is wearing only a short sleeve white shirt. The sport jacket, overcoat, glasses and gloves are missing. Also missing is Arnold's wife, Barbara Rowland. We know from their WC testimony that they were both taken to the Dallas Sheriff's Office where they were interviewed by officers. Forrest Sorrels also interviews the couple while they are in the office. One more thing. In JFK The Lost Tapes there is a brief scene showing the back of a man and woman being escorted away from the front of the TSBD. The couple appear to be wearing attire similar to the Rowlands as they appear in the brief glimpse we see in the Nix film. Importantly, the man is still wearing his overcoat. I now believe this couple to be Arnold and Barbara Rowland. I do not have the DVD so I currently cannot do a screenshot, but the scene is right around the 30-31 minute mark. I am back to square one on the ID of the young man in the short sleeve white shirt. Below is a list of people who claimed to see a Rifle, a Rifleman, or individuals in the company of a man with a weapon, on the upper floors of the TSBD: Howard Brennan Richard Randolph Carr Malcolm Couch James Crawford Robert Edwards Amos Euins Ronald Fischer Ruby Henderson Robert H. Jackson Arnold Rowland Norman Similas Carolyn Walther James Worrel Do any of the above meet the physical description of the man we see in the photo posted by James, and also seen in a brief clip in JFK The Lost Tapes? Excellent post, Richard, as always! Until I set up a photobucket account (at your suggestion) and try to post some screenshots, I'll just make two little observations. In all of the films and photos I've seen of Rowland standing with his wife on Houston as the limo passes by, it looks like he's wearing sunglasses, not "regular" prescription glasses. ( In his WC testimony Rowland was asked if he (ever) wore "glasses," and he said 'No.") I know the guy in James' photo probably isn't Rowland, but it is possible that it is him and that he had simply taken his jacket(s) and sunglasses off after the assassination, and given them to his wife to "hold" for him as he walked off to be questioned. He might even have taken the jacket(s) off because of the excitement and the fact that it was warming up at that time of the day. The other observation that I'd like to make it that the young man who points to an upper floor window around 24:36 in The Lost JFK Tapes DVD (while being escorted to the front entrance by a police sergeant, a reporter, and a cameraman) is also wearing a white, short sleeved, buttoned-down shirt. Regarding the identity of the guy in James' photo and of the guy in the Lost Tapes DVD, the witnesses from your excellent list that I want to take a closer photographic "look" at are: Robert Edwards, Ronald Fischer, Robert H. Jackson, Norman Similas, and James Worrel. A few years ago, forum member Todd W. Vaughn claimed that the guy I've been talking about (who is viewable on the DVD around 24:36) was "quite possibly" Robert Edwards. (See thread "Is This Witness Arnold Rowland", post #21.) I just went to that post again and noticed a link to a short youtube video of the same "clip" that starts at 24:36 in the Lost JFK Tapes DVD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuFOp02l8EI If you look closely, you can see Inspector Sawyer in the background, and, I believe, Buddy Walthers, Alan Sweatt, and maybe even Roger Craig (or Bill Shelley??) entering the frame at the far left near the end. Also note that the white-shirted young man appears to be pointing in the direction of the traditional sixth floor "sniper's window" at the very beginning of the video, and it looks like he briefly cocks his head and looks in that direction, too. --Tommy Tommy, Looking forward to your screenshots. BTW, in the last part of your previous post, you asked about which format to use for photos. I would suggest uploading high resolution jpeg (jpg) photos to your image hosting site account. You can then link to them without taking up any space on the Ed Forum server. It’s possible Rowland could have taken off his glasses, overcoat and sport jacket and given them to his wife to hold. But there is something that makes me think that did not happen. If you scan forward to the spot in the Lost JFK Tapes that is shot from the camera looking down at the crowd in front of the TSBD from above, there is a brief segment of the Deputy escorting the White-short-sleeve-shirt guy towards the intersection. Immediately following that segment, there is a street level view of Rowland and his wife being escorted towards the Sheriff’s office. He is wearing the sports jacket, and they are being escorted by a different officer. It seems improbable that he would be wearing the overcoat and Jacket on Houston, take them off for a few minutes while in front of the TSBD, and then put the jacket back on as they walked back across Houston Street. I found a reference to another photo that might be valuable for this thread. In a review of “Biting the Elephant” by Rodger Remington, James DiEugenio references a photo in the Doubleday version of the Warren Report that shows James Worrel, Robert Jackson, Amos Euins, and Arnold Rowland. Unfortunately, I have the St. Martin’s Press version. If someone on the Ed Forum has the Doubleday version, perhaps they could scan the photo and post it. Good spot on Roger Craig appearing fleetingly on the left side of the film segment you mentioned. I agree it looks like him rather than Bill Shelley. If you are taking requests for screenshots, the shot of Rowland and his wife would be a nice one I have no idea what I'm doing as I try to post a screenshot here from photobucket, but I'm still trying... --Tommy Did I just get lucky, or is it like my dad told me when I was a boy-- "It all depends on how you hold your tongue!" It's from National Geographic's The Lost JFK Tapes. Is this what you meant, Richard? I didn't know Mrs. Rowland had such light colored hair... Thanks for posting this image. It is better resolution than the one I have been looking at. On a larger TV screen, I could vaguely make out the "plaid" appearance on the jacket that Barbara Rowland referenced in her WC testimony. I don't know what color her hair should be. She appears to be wearing a scarf on her head in the Nix segment taken on Houston St. I still would like to see other photos or testimony to confirm this ID. If this is not the Rowlands, is there another "witness" couple that resembles the couple in this photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd W. Vaughan Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 (edited) That's not Rowland. Rowland was wearing an overcoat that day. I think that is either Fischer or Edwards. There is footage of him being led towards the front of the TSBD from the Houston Street area. Fischer and Edwards worked in the Records Building and one of them, I can't recall which, gave the others name to the DPD as a witness and they went and got him from work, where he had returned. Edited December 19, 2013 by Todd W. Vaughan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted December 19, 2013 Author Share Posted December 19, 2013 (edited) Todd, Regarding the photo of the couple being escorted by the officer towards the County Records Building: Can you remember the source for the footage you referenced? The still that Tommy posted is from JFK The Lost Tapes, a segment that only lasts a couple seconds, and does not show their faces. Agree with you that we should expect to see Rowland wearing an overcoat, and his wife with a scarf on her head, as they appeared in the Nix segment. BTW, Robert Edwards is the one who gives Fischer’s name to the police. I have been going through Edwards and Fischer’s WC testimony and Police affidavits, trying to ID or explain the woman holding onto the man’s arm in the photo. As you noted, Fischer and Edwards worked together in the County Records building. They leave the building together to view the motorcade and end up standing on the curb on the SW corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm. In their testimony, Fischer states he was with Edwards. Edwards says he is with Fischer. They mention no one else. BTW, It is worth noting that Fischer is married with 2 kids. It seems unlikely he would be photographed and filmed with a woman who is not his wife hanging on his arm. Edwards is a Senior in college, and I did not see his marital status established in his WC testimony. Both men state that after hearing shots fired, they ran together down towards the Knoll/Underpass area. They mention only being with each other. After roughly 5 minutes they walk straight back into the County Records Building. Here they separate, with Edwards again leaving the building, while Fischer remains inside. This would allow for an opportunity for Edwards to go in front of the TSBD talk to Officers and be escorted to the Sheriff’s office. My concern is that he never mentions being in the company of a woman as these events are unfolding. I respect your knowledge of the photographic record, but I am still not 100 percent convinced of the identity of the guy with the woman in the photo. There should be several photos/film clips that could help to confirm the IDs of what now may be 5 individuals: Arnold and Barbara Rowland, Robert Edwards, Ronald Fischer, and possibly another woman hanging onto the man’s arm in the still frame Tommy posted. The young man in the short-sleeve white shirt also needs to be confirmed as being or not being Fischer or Edwards. So a brief summary of the photo/film that might clear some of this up: Todd mentioned a film clip that might show a better view of the couple above; Fischer and Edwards are on the SW curb of the intersection of Houston and Elm. It is possible they may appear in one of the many photos or film of that area; Fischer and Edwards also may appear together in the footage or stills taken in the immediate aftermath in the Knoll area; The photo of Rowland, Worrel, Jackson, and Euins together as they are going in for their WC Testimony. There are probably more… add edit: There are two more names that should be mentioned. James Crawford was on the SE Corner of Houston and Elm. He watched the motorcade with a woman from his office named Mary Ann Mitchell. They both testified to being together on the corner. James saw what appeared to be a rifle in an upper floor corner window. He would have been an obvious candidate to be escorted into the Sheriff's office for a witness statement. But so far, I have been unable to locate a first day statement from either James Crawford or Mary Ann Mitchell. Edited December 19, 2013 by Richard Hocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Amos Euins, Arnold Rowland, Robert Jackson and James Worrell. Sorry about the poor quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 (edited) I want to say that all identifications of persons appearing in Dealey Plaza photos are really valuable research that ought not to be lost. Is there some way to preserve both the identifications and the mystery photos for future research, such as creating an archive that would be accepted into a university collection? As I have put forth before, the TSBD and Dealey Plaza are really in need of a book-length, published treatment, collecting the facts and identifying the mysteries. Ideally, this would be an edited work, with many scholars contributing research, photos, and topic essays. Is there no way to get a committee of like-minded researchers together to float this as a book project? Edited December 19, 2013 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Amos Euins, Arnold Rowland, Robert Jackson and James Worrell. Sorry about the poor quality. Thanks, James. Looks like they're all dressed up and ready to give testimony. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Amos Euins, Arnold Rowland, Robert Jackson and James Worrell. Sorry about the poor quality. Does this guy look like Rowland, Jackson, or Worrell? (In other frames you can see he's wearing a short-sleeved shirt.) Note Police Inspector Sawyer in left background, by the TSBD front entrance. From "The Lost JFK Tapes" Edited December 20, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 Amos Euins, Arnold Rowland, Robert Jackson and James Worrell. Sorry about the poor quality. Scratch one photo off the wish list, thanks James. One item that immediately caught my attention is how mature James Worrel looks. He would have been 20 years old at the time of the assassination. It looks like he is holding a pipe in his hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 I want to say that all identifications of persons appearing in Dealey Plaza photos are really valuable research that ought not to be lost. Is there some way to preserve both the identifications and the mystery photos for future research, such as creating an archive that would be accepted into a university collection? As I have put forth before, the TSBD and Dealey Plaza are really in need of a book-length, published treatment, collecting the facts and identifying the mysteries. Ideally, this would be an edited work, with many scholars contributing research, photos, and topic essays. Is there no way to get a committee of like-minded researchers together to float this as a book project? David, Good idea. There are threads on several forums that have made progress in this effort over the years. Robin Unger's site should also be mentioned. It is my belief there are still many photos, and probably some film that still remain in the hands of private collectors that we may never see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Amos Euins, Arnold Rowland, Robert Jackson and James Worrell. Sorry about the poor quality. Does this guy look like Rowland, Jackson, or Worrell? (In other frames you can see he's wearing a short-sleeved shirt.) Note Police Inspector Sawyer in left background, by the TSBD front entrance. From "The Lost JFK Tapes" At the time of this photo, Rowland was 18, Jackson was 29-30, and Worrel was 20. Edited December 20, 2013 by Richard Hocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Amos Euins, Arnold Rowland, Robert Jackson and James Worrell. Sorry about the poor quality. Does this guy look like Rowland, Jackson, or Worrell? (In other frames you can see he's wearing a short-sleeved shirt.) Note Police Inspector Sawyer in left background, by the TSBD front entrance. From "The Lost JFK Tapes" At the time of this photo, Rowland was 18, Jackson was 29-30, and Worrel was 20. Richard, And FWIW, Roland Fischer was 25 when he gave his WC testimony on April 1, 1964. His County Records Department co-worker, Robert Edwards, testified on April 9, 1964, that he was a senior in college. He said he'd "laid off" college for a year, so I'm guessing that Edwards was 21 years old at the time of the assassination. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0101a.htm --Tommy Edited December 20, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) Suspects and Witnesses Several of the above individuals are not yet identified. Still have no Photos or film of: - heavy set, middle-aged man being placed in Police car filmed by Sanderson and possibly others - Billy Lovelady, Jack Dougherty, or Charles Givens being escorted away from the TSBD by Police - SS Man described by Craig (Bradley) in front of the TSBD - Forrest Sorrels at the TSBD - Suspect arrested by Officer W. H. Denham on the 3rd floor - Female suspect arrested by Craig attempting to leave parking lot - Arrest of Jim Braden on November 22, 1963 Edited December 21, 2013 by Richard Hocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) Suspects and Witnesses Several of the above individuals are not yet identified. Still have no Photos or film of: - heavy set, middle-aged man being placed in Police car filmed by Sanderson and possibly others - Billy Lovelady, Jack Dougherty, or Charles Givens being escorted away from the TSBD by Police - SS Man described by Craig (Bradley) in front of the TSBD - Forrest Sorrels at the TSBD - Suspect arrested by Officer W. H. Denham on the 3rd floor - Female suspect arrested by Craig attempting to leave parking lot - Arrest of Jim Braden on November 22, 1963 I think the guy sitting on the sofa in the white shirt is the same guy that's in the other two photograph on the same row. --Tommy Edited December 22, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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