Guest Duncan MacRae

PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

1,089 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

Are you saying that Buell Wesley Frazier was "forced" to remain silent about who stood next to him?

Are also saying that the same conspirators who obliged the medical staff at Bethesda Naval Hospital to alter the results of their autopsy were the same people who "forced" Frazier to remain silent?

Are you saying that if Frazier had not been "forced" to remain silent, then he "would have" testified that Lee Harvey Oswald was "Prayer Man?"

Then, are you also saying that Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were also "forced" to remain silent about it?   And all other TSBD workers on the steps of the TSBD who also testified for the Warren Commission?

If so, Andrej, then IMHO you are simply making stuff up.  You have no evidence for such a claim.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

I have commented on reasons for which those seeing Oswald in the doorway in a number of my previous posts. For instance, I pointed to the treatment which witnesses opposing the official line received (e.g., Serrano's interview in the RFK case, The Thin Blue Line which actually relates to Dallas) unless they agreed to keep silence. Only the people on the top landing were in position to see Prayer Man. Other people, such as Carl Jones standing at the lower west corner of the doorway, would not know who stood behind him. Oswald stood in the doorway for a short period of time, maybe 120 seconds, and it was the time of pandemonium; Prayer Man would not be a conspicuous person to remember even if someone would glance on the doorway. He would only be seen from certain view angles, excluding a large number of potential random observers. 

The lack of information about Oswald's whereabouts, especially at the time of shooting and shortly later as he was leaving the Depository, equals the lack of information related to his possible short stay in the doorway. He allegedly left three minutes after the shooting, and there were already people around on his way out in the doorway and the vestibule. No one from the employees remembered seeing him leaving?  How comes?

The reason for covering up Lee's whereabouts after 12.00noon was the necessity to place him to the sixth floor. Any testimony about Lee's whereabouts would lead to further questions and to a likely dismantling of the cover-up. 

I will come to Mr. Frazier's credibility in one of my next posts. I am on travel at the moment and have no access to my notes and to original sources. 

 

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6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Bill:

I think what Andrej is saying is that from his ordeal on the first day where he was detained and arrested and his house was searched and he was brought in for a polygraph etc., that he knew that the police were honed in on Oswald as the perp.

Therefore, if he said anything that violated that belief, they would go after him any way they could.

Oswald could have been seen as having some involvement in the assassination and still been seen as standing next to Buell at the time of the shooting. And like many witnesses in the last 10 to 20 years that spoke out against the official version - Frazier said he saw Lee after the shooting in his interview with the 6th Floor Museum which he didn't say to the Commission in 64. So had Lee of been on the stairs with Buell .... I do not believe Buell would withhold that information at this time.

What if someone said Bill Shelley shot the President - do you really think no one would have spoke up and said he was on the steps with me and other  workers who were watching the parade?  Of course they would have spoken up. And I still say that Prayer Man is too wide to be Oswald.

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Oswald could have been seen as having some involvement in the assassination and still been seen as standing next to Buell at the time of the shooting. And like many witnesses in the last 10 to 20 years that spoke out against the official version - Frazier said he saw Lee after the shooting in his interview with the 6th Floor Museum which he didn't say to the Commission in 64. So had Lee of been on the stairs with Buell .... I do not believe Buell would withhold that information at this time.

What if someone said Bill Shelley shot the President - do you really think no one would have spoke up and said he was on the steps with me and other  workers who were watching the parade?  Of course they would have spoken up. And I still say that Prayer Man is too wide to be Oswald.

 

 

Yup.............

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Let us look at some details in Mr. Frazier's testimonies. 

Below is a transcript from the "Living History with Buell Wesley Frazier" interview recorded by the Sixth Floor Museum and posted on August 27, 2013. Mr. Fagin led the interview. The interview can be found on YouTube.com by typing the title of the video broadcast.

The relevant section of the interview starts at 33 min 50 s:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?

Mr. Frazier: (pause) I did. This was all... I do not know how many minutes later … (noisy recording), but the lady I stand next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady came by, a woman came by, she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President".

So we looked ...(unintelligible). And I turned to Sarah: "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stayed there for few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step where Billy was standing there by myself so to look around it. And it was just total chaos there.

And then forbear I started to go down If can see Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, and it was so much chaos down there. And I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes side of the building. And I was talking to someone, it  was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking alone the side of the Texas School Book  building was Lee Oswald.

Mr. Fagin: walking along this side of the building?

Mr. Frazier: Yes.

Mr. Fagin: Houston Street.

Mr. Frazier. Yes, Houston Street. So, he'd come around after the dock there. So, he walks up and I talked to this lady. He didn't say anything. And he crosses Houston. I watch him crossing Houston as I talked to this little lady. and as he gets over to the other side of Houston, and then he crosses  Elm. And somebody said something to me and I turned, and he was about half-way across the street, and when I turned back he was gone in the crowd, and I don’t know what happened to him. But I did not worry too much about that because there were several places around there where you can go when you need a sandwich, and I never asked him that morning when he and I were riding to work, and I says: Where is your lunch? He said: Oh, I will buy off the truck today. I said: “OK”, Well, I didn’t think anything when he told me about buying off the truck.

He said, buy his lunch, “I will  buy my lunch today”, and … I did not like … (unintelligible) so, but I though he was talking about "Cader Crock" (I not sure I have transcribed this name correctly) , but …

Mr. Fagin: There is no doubt in your mind that this was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Frazier: This (They?, AS) was.

Mr.Fagin: Could you see the expression of his face, or anything you can tell us about the way he looked?

Mr. Frazier: There was nothing different about Lee. Expression on his face was … He looked perfectly normal. And that’s the last time I remember seeing him.

End of transcript.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are at least two points in this interview which contradict Mr. Frazier's testimony for  the Warren Commission which statements were made under oath: 

1. The point of his whereabouts and moves immediately after the shooting. This is what Mr. Frazier had to say in his testimony:

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all. 
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there? 
Mr. BALL - A police officer. 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. 
Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy. 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Sir? 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And police officers came in there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several. 
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the first floor? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there. 
Mr. BALL - When you came back into the Building, you came in the front door, didn't you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right 
Mr. BALL - Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside. 

According to Mr. Frazier's testimony, he stayed on the spot where he was during the shooting, and after a girl (Calvary?) came in and told about the shooting on President Kennedy he went into the building, stayed in the first floor, and went to the basement alone. There is no mention of him going down the steps, walking outside in direction of Shelly and Lovelady, then back to steps and then still to the east corner of the building.

2. The point of when Mr. Frazier saw Lee Oswald for the last time. His Warren Commission statements were this:

Mr. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER - You mean on the 22d?

Mr. BALL - On the 22d, that day.

Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.

Mr. BALL - That was the last time you saw him all day?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right

Mr. BALL - You didn't talk to him again?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.

In his testimony for the Warren Commission, Mr. Frazier asserted that he has seen Lee after 10AM for the last time. Now, in his Living History interview, he describes a full knew story in which he saw him leaving the depository from the back of the building, not from the front as the official version had it for fifty years.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The details about his lunch conversation with Lee in "Living History" appears new to me. It cannot be classified as a lie because no one asked Mr. Frazier about Lee's lunch during the testimony, however, it certainly provides further damning evidence against Lee Oswald because it disputes Lee's defense that he had a lunch in the first floor before the shooting. How could he have a lunch if he did not bring any lunch with him, and there is no evidence or sighting of Oswald going out of the building to buy it and coming back? An accused assassin was not supposed to go out of the building to buy lunch anyway, he was supposed to wait on the sixth floor for his chance to shoot the President.

So, Mr. Frazier with his details about Lee not bringing his lunch that morning says that the package Lee Oswald brought to work this morning was: 1) not a lunch, 2) not a rifle as you cannot carry a Mannlicher Carcano rifle  this way:

Mr. BALL - One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side. 
Mr. BALL - But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No; he had it cupped in his hand. 
Mr. BALL - Cupped in his hand? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 

The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, even if disassembled, would be much too long to carry it this particular way. Mr. Frazier was always consistent about the way how the parcel was worn in his subsequent interviews.

=======================================================================================================================================

Where does all this lead to?

Mr. Frazier either lied under oath in his Warren Commission testimony, or he lied in his "Living History" interview. His sudden recall of the important details of his Friday are not a recall problem - he adds vivid details. He does not shrink the story which one would expect as a result of forgetting, he expands it.

Mr. Frazier, sorry to say, lied in important parts of the event. No one would wish to lie. There is no evil motive in Mr. Frazier's heart making him to lie against Lee Oswald. My interpretation is that he is being led, even now, more than fifty years after the fact. The interview not only contains information proving that Mr. Frazier lied either to the Warren Commission or in "Living History", but this information is also a message that we can forget to learn anything useful about the case because not even the information in the Warren Report might be truthful. In my view, the Living History interview with Wesley Frazier is a part of ongoing cover-up.

Mr. Frazier's interview also suggests that he might have other trumps in his sleeve as he was able to produce a brand new and never heard information after fifty years. Maybe, his ultimate card will be Prayer Man's identity. 

Late edit: It is a sort of curiosity that the original Prayer Man thread "Oswald leaving ..." started on August 14, and the first Prayer Man post by Sean Murphy dates August 15, 2013. The interview with Mr. Frazier was posted (not sure when it was recorded though) on August 27, 2013. An interview that pushes Lee away from the first floor, in particular from the first floor vestibule, by having him exiting the building from the back of the building. Mr. Frazier did not see a Coke in Lee's hand (or did he?), so did Lee drink the alleged full bottle of Coke before leaving? Should we believe that he descended from the second floor via the front stairs, drank the Coke somewhere on the first floor as he was moving to the north side of the building, did not take his jacket from the first floor lunchroom, and then left whilst appearing perfectly normal to Mr. Frazier. And no one saw Oswald on the first floor while he was leaving even if he had to walk through the whole first floor to get to the back door.

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
"out of trunk" replaced with "off the truck" in the transcript section

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Frazier didn't know that Lee was going across Elm Street to buy his lunch - he assumed so. He said Lee sometimes bought something off the "truck".

And you are correct - Frazier said he saw Lee post shooting to which he did not tell the Commission. Some 50 years later and he is not afraid to divulge seeing Lee after the shooting, so I doubt he would be afraid to tell people that Lee was standing outside on the landing at the top of the stairs had that of been the case. Perhaps a researcher could contact Buell and talk to him about his seeing Lee after the shooting and ask why he didn't tell that to the Commission.

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6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Let us look at some details in Mr. Frazier's testimonies. 

Below is a transcript from the "Living History with Buell Wesley Frazier" interview recorded by the Sixth Floor Museum and posted on August 27, 2013. Mr. Fagin led the interview. The interview can be found on YouTube.com by typing the title of the video broadcast.

The relevant section of the interview starts at 33 min 50 s:

...

 

Andrej, just wondering, did you make that transcript?

Regards

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7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

My interpretation is that [B.W. Frazier] is being led, even now, more than fifty years after the fact.

I have a feeling that you are right, Andrej.

 

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On 3/16/2017 at 2:00 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

...The reason for covering up Lee's whereabouts after 12.00noon was the necessity to place him to the sixth floor. Any testimony about Lee's whereabouts would lead to further questions and to a likely dismantling of the cover-up. 

I will come to Mr. Frazier's credibility in one of my next posts. I am on travel at the moment and have no access to my notes and to original sources. 

Andrej,

I'll wait patiently for your post on Frazier's credibility.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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On 1/12/2016 at 3:00 AM, Bart Kamp said:

Prayer-Woman-Dead-and-Buried.jpg

 

Prayer Man still looks to wide to me to be skinny Oswald.

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14 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Frazier didn't know that Lee was going across Elm Street to buy his lunch - he assumed so. He said Lee sometimes bought something off the "truck".

And you are correct - Frazier said he saw Lee post shooting to which he did not tell the Commission. Some 50 years later and he is not afraid to divulge seeing Lee after the shooting, so I doubt he would be afraid to tell people that Lee was standing outside on the landing at the top of the stairs had that of been the case. Perhaps a researcher could contact Buell and talk to him about his seeing Lee after the shooting and ask why he didn't tell that to the Commission.

Why don't you have a go at it, you get some fresh air and you are away from the keyboard as well.

A win-win situation! :)

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Oh and Miller, before you bring that so called girth up again and try to move to a heavy set female such as Sarah Stanton.

Which  Doyle is yapping about btw from his padded cell at DPF. 

Pauline Sanders said she stood on the east side of the steps, with Sarah Stanton standing right next to her.

 

Girth......come off it.

Oswald's shirt was really a tight fit was it?

Why don't you show some good pictures that show this!

In all honesty your photo interpretation skills, like Doyle's, leave a lot to be desired.

Has it not occurred to you how similar in approach you two are and that no one else is buying any of it?

John McAdams cherry picked his way through this assassination stuff over the years as well, you two are part of that same club.

 

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15 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Frazier didn't know that Lee was going across Elm Street to buy his lunch - he assumed so. He said Lee sometimes bought something off the "truck".

And you are correct - Frazier said he saw Lee post shooting to which he did not tell the Commission. Some 50 years later and he is not afraid to divulge seeing Lee after the shooting, so I doubt he would be afraid to tell people that Lee was standing outside on the landing at the top of the stairs had that of been the case. Perhaps a researcher could contact Buell and talk to him about his seeing Lee after the shooting and ask why he didn't tell that to the Commission.

Muhahahahahaha, Miller it really is all falling apart isn't it?

 

According to Wesley Frazier:

      "A caterer service...comes around about 10 o'clock. The man comes around and several of the boys, they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering service."

*****

Mr. Ball.
    Did you bring your lunch that day?
Mr. Jarman.
    No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Ball.
    What did you do about lunch that day?
Mr. Jarman.
    I got a sandwich off the carrying truck.
Mr. Ball.
    About what time of day?
Mr. Jarman.
    It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe.
Mr. Ball.
    Where did you put it, keep it until lunch?
Mr. Jarman.
    In the domino room.

 


 

Edited by Bart Kamp

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"It is a sort of curiosity that the original Prayer Man thread "Oswald leaving ..." started on August 14, and the first Prayer Man post by Sean Murphy dates August 15, 2013. The interview with Mr. Frazier was posted (not sure when it was recorded though) on August 27, 2013. An interview that pushes Lee away from the first floor, in particular from the first floor vestibule, by having him exiting the building from the back of the building. Mr. Frazier did not see a Coke in Lee's hand (or did he?), so did Lee drink the alleged full bottle of Coke before leaving? Should we believe that he descended from the second floor via the front stairs, drank the Coke somewhere on the first floor as he was moving to the north side of the building, did not take his jacket from the first floor lunchroom, and then left whilst appearing perfectly normal to Mr. Frazier. And no one saw Oswald on the first floor while he was leaving even if he had to walk through the whole first floor to get to the back door."

 

Andrej, well spotted, he must have guzzled that coke down like there was no tomorrow, no one else saw him carry it besides Reid and no one saw him leave either. Piper and West should have if he had left via the back! So hea gets his coke afer the so called 2nd floor fugezi and then makes his way down the stairs to the front, has a chat with the absent (!) Shelley and makes his way out via the back....yup it all starts to make sense now.

He definitely wanted to have that coke so he could pee it all out during "War Is Hell"

:P

Edited by Bart Kamp

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4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

I'll wait patiently for your post on Frazier's credibility.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

The post awaited by you is just above. It compares a Living History interview with Mr. Frazier with his testimony for the Warren Commission. Mr. Frazier apparently lied to the commission about when he saw Oswald for the last time, and about his movements after the shooting. Mr. Frazier did not report his updated movements and his late sighting of Lee Oswald for 50 years. He either concealed the true course of events and lied in his sworn testimony, or he concocted his new route towards the east corner of the building and seeing Oswald on Houston/Elm only now (fifty years after the fact). In either case, Mr. Frazier lost his credibility. The question on him would be: Did you lie under oath when you said that your last sighting of Oswald was after 10AM?

I hope this helps.  

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

I'll wait patiently for your post on Frazier's credibility.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dig into this Paul, all the info and then some!!

Word of warning this is an archival post, you see view all 50 odd pages, but you cannot browse anywhere else besides the JFK Forum.

 

Edited by Bart Kamp

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