PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Paul Trejo]

21 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Paul - Lee and Buell were basically neighbors so I can see Buell not charging him to ride along. I had a similar circumstance where I had a buddy ride with me to work and I had to pick him up a block or so away and not once did I ask him to pay and when he offered I declined on the grounds that his riding with me didn't cost me a cent more having him along as not. And in as much as I liked fishing with him when ever we could go - I was not infatuated with him. So I understand what you are saying - I just don't see it like you do for the reasons you gave.

Bill  -- did you first meet your buddy at work and immediately offer him rides?  Or did you know him before you offered him rides?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

... Truly and Baker were forced to lie... 

Andrej,

Do you have further evidence for this serious charge?   Who forced Truly and Baker to lie?   What force did they use?   How did this happen?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill  -- did you first meet your buddy at work and immediately offer him rides?  Or did you know him before you offered him rides?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I knew this person and when he went to work where I was at ... I said to him "Why not ride with me."  And when he offered to pay me not long afterwards, I told him it wasn't necessary because I used no more gas for two people to be in my car as it does for just one.  The same thing happened when I worked for another place ... I met a guy at work who lived several miles out of Glasford and he passed by my place driving to work.  When I found this out, I offered for him to leave his car at my place and go the rest of the way with me if he wanted and he took me up on it. Took him about 7 minutes to get to my place and another 25 - 30 minutes to get to our work place. Throughout my life I have never taken money for doing a favor for anyone. I have accepted money for doing work for people I have known, but not for giving someone a ride when I was going that way anyhow.

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

Do you have further evidence for this serious charge?   Who forced Truly and Baker to lie?   What force did they use?   How did this happen?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

I would like to know who actually guided Baker and Truly but I do not know. Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end, and someone who hung around when the testimonies were taken. However, it was the same force which compelled Commissioner Ford to move the back wound to the neck, the same force which decided that 27 inch equals 38 inch, the same force which made sure that no faithful trace from Oswald's interrogation would be available, the same force which allowed Lee Harvey Oswald to be killed by Jack Ruby, the same force which cleaned and refurbished the limo right away, the same which made a surgery on President's head prior to the regular autopsy, the same force which brought the motorcade to Elm street. This was not the making of one man. 

No normal person lies gladly. People do not want to lie, and do not lie unless forced by the circumstances. It could be presented to Baker and Truly as their patriotic duty and  as a relatively minor thing: "You do not need to lie, you just say that you met him in the second floor vestibule rather than in the first floor vestibule. That's all."  

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

Mr. Truly could not say that Lee Harvey Oswald was approached by Officer Baker on the first floor. This is the point. If he would admit this, Lee Harvey Oswald could not be the assassin because he would not have time to run down to meet Baker who has just entered the first floor. That would be a killer blow to the lone nut theory which started to shape very early on (actually, it was prepared before the act). Truly and Baker were forced to lie. Gerald Ford lied by moving the back wound from a thoracic level to the neck. If this wound would stay where it really was, the lone nut theory would be gone. Moving the first floor encounter to the second floor was a similar necessity. Only the second floor offered the benefit of uncertainty as to where people could come from. This was the reason for selecting the second floor as their meeting point. Please note that moving the encounter from the first to the second floor allowed to keep certain features as if it were the truth: the "vestibule", the words used, the Coke, and the rest of Baker-Truly trip to the upper floors (I hope I will not be accused of plagiarism since I am only repeating Sean Murphy's comments).  

I have explained and documented the witnesses roles and possibilities in several posts, including some quite dramatic video recordings of interrogations. The men who stood on the top landing and saw Oswald in the doorway were immediately taken to the police headquarters. Ladies were offered a bail-out in the sense that there will be an (unsigned?) FBI report and no one will ever call them again. Did you watch Serrano's interrogation in the matter of her sighting of the Polka dot dress lady? Exactly this type of offer Serrano received, and she then kept silence for more than 40 years.

And yes, Oswald's whereabouts on the first floor have to do with him being Prayer Man. These are the high-voltage issues, and they can bring down the lone nut version of events. 

As to your beliefs and height and weight impressions: no one cares what you believe, only that we are polite at this Forum and better ignore such empty comments of yours. 

 

 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

To start with - I have studied the RFK assassination from top to bottom and I was aware of the way Serrano was brow beaten to change her story about the woman in the polka dotted dress ... that doesn't mean Truly and Baker got the same done to them. And if Baker and Truly were pressured to lie about their meeting with Oswald, then why not have Lee out of breath and looking nervous. Instead they described a man who didn't appear to have just made record time getting to the second floor lunchroom from just being on the 6th.

Furthermore - supposed you tell me exactly how much longer would it have taken Oswald to descend down one more flight of stairs - 2secs - 3secs ???  I'm 59 years old and I could do it in 3secs ... probably could about get it down below 2secs back in the day that I was in my mid-20's. 

I personally think you are reaching when trying to make Oswald out to be Prayer Man. Who ever Prayer Man was - he was standing with Frazier - Lovelady - Molinda - Shelley - etc., when Wiegman started filming and not on the first or second floor.

Bill:

I do not know how much time would it take to run one or two extra flights. I am trying to figure out the scenario you have in mind in which Oswald would meet Baker and Truly in the first floor while descending from the second floor. It would depend at which section of the first floor the encounter was supposed to be. If it would be the open plane area leading to the stairs and elevators, then Eddie Piper would not only see Baker and Truly but also Oswald. This apparently did not happen. It could then be that Baker and Truly met Oswald in the first floor vestibule, and Oswald came in from the second floor via the front stairs. In that case, the encounter would happen in the first floor and Oswald could not be the assassin because his route (+Coke) would be considerable longer and Baker's route considerably shorter, and this would exonerate Oswald. Therefore, the first floor encounter would have to be suppressed (although Oswald may not be Prayer Man in such a scenario). This hypothetical scenario would serve you in refuting Oswald being Prayer Man, however, it would not serve you in keeping the second floor encounter. Which of the two prospects would you choose? "Killing" Prayer Man or burying the second floor encounter? And please bear in mind, it is all about the start of Oswald's departure from the second floor lunchroom: if he started soon, he would reach the vestibule/glass door when the motorcade was turning to Elm, he would enter the doorway, he would be Prayer Man, and would be met by Baker and Truly when he returned to the vestibule. Welcome to Prayer Man's camp.

"why not have Lee out of breath and looking nervous. Instead they described a man who didn't appear to have just made record time getting to the second floor lunchroom from just being on the 6th."

This is an interesting comment. I would say: 1) Any deviations from the truth were intentionally kept to minimum to avoid ripples in the story. 2) Not being short of breath did not prevent the Dallas Police, the FBI and the Warren Commission to still insist that Oswald had to get to the second floor lunchroom from the sixth floor. Therefore, it was not necessary to add this detail to Baker's and Truly's testimonies. 3) If Oswald would be described as short of breath and aroused, the question would be how came that no one (neither Baker nor Truly, Vicki Adams, Sandra Styles, Mrs. Garner) heard him running - only running could explain him being short of breath. 4. If Oswald would be described as short of breath, the question for Baker would be why he did not find this man suspicious and enquire about his state.

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

8 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

 

 

Thanks, Bart, this is very useful, and not that easy to find.

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

I would like to know who actually guided Baker and Truly but I do not know. Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end, and someone who hung around when the testimonies were taken. However, it was the same force which compelled Commissioner Ford to move the back wound to the neck, the same force which decided that 27 inch equals 38 inch, the same force which made sure that no faithful trace from Oswald's interrogation would be available, the same force which allowed Lee Harvey Oswald to be killed by Jack Ruby, the same force which cleaned and refurbished the limo right away, the same which made a surgery on President's head prior to the regular autopsy, the same force which brought the motorcade to Elm street. This was not the making of one man. 

No normal person lies gladly. People do not want to lie, and do not lie unless forced by the circumstances. It could be presented to Baker and Truly as their patriotic duty and  as a relatively minor thing: "You do not need to lie, you just say that you met him in the second floor vestibule rather than in the first floor vestibule. That's all."  

You point out the alteration to President Kenney's body which is a justified concern, but when you try to make every little thing a conspiracy, then you don't do justice to the good claims. The who guided Baker comment is a theory - nothing more. The thing is ... Baker's commenting on the pigeons flying from the roof of the TSBD is a reasonable excuse for thinking someone in the building had fired a shot(s). So Baker runs into the building asking aloud where the elevator was because he wasn't familiar with the layout of the Depository. So it was Truly who followed Baker through the front entrance who led Baker. All those things are a rational response and yet some people attempt to make something sinister out of that to the point of just stopping short of alleging that the pigeons were part of the conspiracy by making certain that Baker saw them.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks, Bart, this is very useful, and not that easy to find.

Good to see that Campbell saw Truly and Patrolman Baker run into the building. They too can be added to the witnesses who saw what the Darnell film illustrates just short of the running up the stairs before turning the camera away from the scene.

The next thing is when did Campbell see Oswald on the first floor?  It certainly wasn't when Baker and Truly entered the building because Campbell took off shagging tail for the knoll. It could have been several minutes before Campbell went back to the TSBD. Because Campbell saw Lee after returning to the building doesn't mean that Oswald wasn't on the second floor when Baker and Truly started up the stairs. It's looking to me that the person who wrote the story assumed that because Oswald was said to be seen on the first floor by Campbell who said shortly after hearing shots ... he raced into the building, thus Truly and Baker must have run into Oswald on the first floor as they ran to the elevator, but neither Truly, Baker, West, Piper, or anyone else who was in the building or who entered the building just behind Truly said anything about seeing Oswald on the first floor at that time.

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

I do not know how much time would it take to run one or two extra flights. I am trying to figure out the scenario you have in mind in which Oswald would meet Baker and Truly in the first floor while descending from the second floor.

Running down the stairs would be faster than running up them. And there is no scenario in my mind that has Baker and Truly on the first floor. That scenario was introduced by Campbell upon returning to the building after going out to the knoll first and then returning to the building after that. Campbell didn't even say how long it was that he spent out on the knoll and nor does it seem that he was asked that question.

[Paul Trejo]

6 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I knew this person and when he went to work where I was at ... I said to him "Why not ride with me."  And when he offered to pay me not long afterwards, I told him it wasn't necessary because I used no more gas for two people to be in my car as it does for just one.  The same thing happened when I worked for another place ... I met a guy at work who lived several miles out of Glasford and he passed by my place driving to work.  When I found this out, I offered for him to leave his car at my place and go the rest of the way with me if he wanted and he took me up on it. Took him about 7 minutes to get to my place and another 25 - 30 minutes to get to our work place. Throughout my life I have never taken money for doing a favor for anyone. I have accepted money for doing work for people I have known, but not for giving someone a ride when I was going that way anyhow.

Bill

OK, that's a normal sounding relationship, IMHO.   The relationship between Buell Frazier and Lee Harvey Oswald does not sound normal to me.

They never met before.   LHO had no car, and no real way to get to Irving, since the bus system did not go by Ruth Paine's house in those days.

Even after taking a bus, there was more than a mile to walk.   LHO did it, but he didn't like it.   He once called Ruth Paine to pick him up, but she declined.   Ruth was there to take care of pregnant Marina Oswald -- not her deadbeat husband.

LHO exploited Buell Frazier, in my reading.   Buell jumped at LHO the minute he laid eyes on him.   It reminds me of a cartoon -- Wanna ride?  Huh?  Huh?  D'ya wanna?

To keep some modesty here I won't repeat Buell's final sentences in his WC testimony -- but I recommend them for purposes of this discussion.

LHO knew what he was doing.   He had become a user.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo
not

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

I would like to know who actually guided Baker and Truly but I do not know. Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end, and someone who hung around when the testimonies were taken. However, it was the same force which compelled Commissioner Ford to move the back wound to the neck, the same force which decided that 27 inch equals 38 inch, the same force which made sure that no faithful trace from Oswald's interrogation would be available, the same force which allowed Lee Harvey Oswald to be killed by Jack Ruby, the same force which cleaned and refurbished the limo right away, the same which made a surgery on President's head prior to the regular autopsy, the same force which brought the motorcade to Elm street. This was not the making of one man. 

No normal person lies gladly. People do not want to lie, and do not lie unless forced by the circumstances. It could be presented to Baker and Truly as their patriotic duty and  as a relatively minor thing: "You do not need to lie, you just say that you met him in the second floor vestibule rather than in the first floor vestibule. That's all."  

Andrej,

You are an intelligent person.  Yet your claim here makes no sense to me at all.

IMHO you have been under the influence of CIA-did-it fiction writers for a long time.

"Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end."    That was NOBODY.

Nobody had that sort of control over the witnesses, Andrej, to "force" them to lie as you suggest.

The WC witnesses who lied were the people who killed JFK.   They also controlled the evidence -- the rifle -- the bullets.  

That was all they had.  They needed only one more thing -- Lee Harvey Oswald to be dead.   They botched that on 11/22/1963.  

They finally solved it on 11/24/1963.

Lee Harvey Oswald was well-framed for the murder of JFK -- he was framed in New Orleans that summer, and in Mexico City.

It was not the CIA who framed Lee Harvey Oswald.   It was a Civilian Plot involving Dallas officials and New Orleans officials who also belonged to the Radical Right.

Rogues Dallas Police and Deputies were part of that plot -- and could control the evidence.

They could not control the testimony of the WC witnesses.  NOBODY was forced to lie to the WC.   NOBODY.

You have no evidence of such "force."   It is a fiction.  It is an old, CIA-did-it fiction.  It has failed for 50 years.   It is useless.

The WC witnesses who didn't kill JFK -- the vast majority of these 488 witnesses -- simply told the Truth as best they could remember it.

It seems to me, Andrej, that your CT has come to require Prayer-Man, and has come to require that Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, Holmes, Sorrels etc. were all telling the Truth.   Once you realize that Fritz & Co. were part of the JFK Kill Team, and so were the actual WC liars, then the myth of Prayer-Man can rest in peace.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Good to see that Campbell saw Truly and Patrolman Baker run into the building. They too can be added to the witnesses who saw what the Darnell film illustrates just short of the running up the stairs before turning the camera away from the scene.

The next thing is when did Campbell see Oswald on the first floor?  It certainly wasn't when Baker and Truly entered the building because Campbell took off shagging tail for the knoll. It could have been several minutes before Campbell went back to the TSBD. Because Campbell saw Lee after returning to the building doesn't mean that Oswald wasn't on the second floor when Baker and Truly started up the stairs. It's looking to me that the person who wrote the story assumed that because Oswald was said to be seen on the first floor by Campbell who said shortly after hearing shots ... he raced into the building, thus Truly and Baker must have run into Oswald on the first floor as they ran to the elevator, but neither Truly, Baker, West, Piper, or anyone else who was in the building or who entered the building just behind Truly said anything about seeing Oswald on the first floor at that time.

Where in this article does this mention Baker and Truly!

WHERE!

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

9 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

You are an intelligent person.  Yet your claim here makes no sense to me at all.

IMHO you have been under the influence of CIA-did-it fiction writers for a long time.

"Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end."    That was NOBODY.

Nobody had that sort of control over the witnesses, Andrej, to "force" them to lie as you suggest.

The WC witnesses who lied were the people who killed JFK.   They also controlled the evidence -- the rifle -- the bullets.  

That was all they had.  They needed only one more thing -- Lee Harvey Oswald to be dead.   They botched that on 11/22/1963.  

They finally solved it on 11/24/1963.

Lee Harvey Oswald was well-framed for the murder of JFK -- he was framed in New Orleans that summer, and in Mexico City.

It was not the CIA who framed Lee Harvey Oswald.   It was a Civilian Plot involving Dallas officials and New Orleans officials who also belonged to the Radical Right.

Rogues Dallas Police and Deputies were part of that plot -- and could control the evidence.

They could not control the testimony of the WC witnesses.  NOBODY was forced to lie to the WC.   NOBODY.

You have no evidence of such "force."   It is a fiction.  It is an old, CIA-did-it fiction.  It has failed for 50 years.   It is useless.

The WC witnesses who didn't kill JFK -- the vast majority of these 488 witnesses -- simply told the Truth as best they could remember it.

It seems to me, Andrej, that your CT has come to require Prayer-Man, and has come to require that Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, Holmes, Sorrels etc. were all telling the Truth.   Once you realize that Fritz & Co. were part of the JFK Kill Team, and so were the actual WC liars, then the myth of Prayer-Man can rest in peace.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

I answered with this: " Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end, and someone who hung around when the testimonies were taken.  "

I was not specific but it is obvious that since Baker was a patrolman, he hung at the DPD, and he gave an affidavit to the FBI that the ones who couched him (and Truly) would be some members of the DPD and the FBI. The reasons of the DPD and the FBI for couching Baker might have been different, more sinister in members of the DPD who appeared to actively frame Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy. Less sinister in the FBI agents who followed Hoover's early decision to scapegoat Oswald. I think we agree or have very close opinions on the point of framing.

"... how the investigation should end" : this would be "Oswald being the lone assassin and dead".

The story "The Thin Blue Line", flagged up by Joseph McBride, illustrates how fellow DPD officers adjusted their testimonies to convict an innocent man. They did it in the seventies, and they certainly could do it in 1963.

As for the "forces": the assassination had multiple limbs. The limbs did not need to know too much about each other. The most proximal limb which was responsible for framing  and silencing Oswald in Dallas was the rogue DPD, however, the rogue members of the DPD were connected to the deep forces ("politics") which also moved other limbs. Whether the connection  was purely ideological (racist, ultra-right views shared with KKK, JBS, General Walker) or more concrete (bags of money delivered to members of the DPD from H.L. Hunt by Jack Ruby), this I do not know. At the end of the day, it was all interconnected in "deep politics" terms. It is beyond my depth of knowledge to fish in these muddy waters and pull out some diamonds of truth. However, it would be a mistake to think that the most proximal limb (the rogue DPD) was actually the sole limb in the assassination.

Whilst Baker certainly needed to be couched to say what was appropriate for the LN version, Commissioner Ford or Aarlen Specter knew themselves what to do. In that sense, Ford indeed was not "forced" to falsify the location of the back wound. However, he was forced by the circumstances.

Late edit:

"Once you realize that Fritz & Co. were part of the JFK Kill Team, and so were the actual WC liars, then the myth of Prayer-Man can rest in peace."

Paul: even if Fritz & Co. were the "JFK Kill Team", they still needed a patsy. The patsy was Lee Harvey Oswald. Unfortunately for whoever who framed Lee Harvey Oswald, Lee went out as the motorcade was passing the Depository to see what was this commotion about, holding a Coke he bought some minutes ago on the second floor. So, Prayer Man stays as a problem even for those believing your theory about Fritz&Co. being responsible for the murder of President Kennedy. 

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Bill Miller]

8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

To keep some modesty here I won't repeat Buell's final sentences in his WC testimony -- but I recommend them for purposes of this discussion.

LHO knew what he was doing.   He had become a user.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I have read three of Buell's testimonies and his affidavit. Maybe it would help me if you paste the sentences you recommend for the purposes of this discussion.