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James DiEugenio

Marina, the Commission, and Mexico City

363 posts in this topic

Quote

David,

Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) surely was in Mexico City.  Anybody who thinks differently is having trouble reading the Lopez Report (2003).

Ok Paul, here's your chance....

Please post the evidence offered in the Lopez report which corroborates the man who was shot by Ruby was in Mexico City over those 5 days.

from my essays:

The “Lopez Report”, an excellent reexamination of the WCR’s underplaying of the “Lee Oswald calling” Mexico trip focusing on the Embassy/Consulate visits and transcripts offers the following and little else related to evidence of Oswald’s travels into and out of Mexico.  This is from page 3 of the introduction.

Lopez report statement about Oswald trip to Mexico.jpg 

problem being the WCR's establishment of the travel did NOT correctly inform us about any of it.  Paul, if you don't know about what occurs at each of the Mexican bus stations once the investigation was set in motion, you're not looking.

Ask yourself...  why would the FBI go thru all that trouble to create fake evidence of his trip when it's the CIA who claims he was there?
What possible reason could Hoover need to put Oswald on buses to and from Mexico City for those specific days?  Where was he seen with 2 Cubans? 
Where does he claim he was for that week - for it certainly was not Mexico..  (hint: Odio)

What do you supposed Hoover means here about "the false story re Oswald's trip to Mexico"?  and again... if he KNOWS this, why does he not let the altered Frontera bus manifest stand as evidence and put the CIA on the defensive...  they were always warring with each other.

64-01-15 Hoover written notes about the CIA lie about Oswald in Mexico.jpg

Fact is Paul, outside the phony CIA transcripts, there is simply no evidence which can be authenticated which puts Oswald in Mexico..  the evidence, in fact, proves the opposite.

Finally, like so many other authors who have over-looked the FBI asset at Gobernacion....  do you know who I speak of and all he was involved with... or will you just take the FBI evidence of his trips at face value without knowing of its origins...

Case in point:  The Frontera manifest was altered within hours of the assassination to include Oswald's name.  When it was found that Oswald could not reach the connecting buses necessary to get back to Dallas using this bus, it was dropped in the search for "better" evidence...  it took the FBI thousands of pages of reports to hide the fact that Oswald did not go 1)by the way described in the WCR by the FBI and 2)that if he did go, the evidence offered to date does not support that conclusion.

64-03-31 WCR Oswald not on bus 340 with footnotes and references to Bosch in Mexico.jpg

63-10-02 CE 2527 - Frontera forgery by Bosch admitted by Hoover.jpg  

 

Finally, the FBI had a very extensive spy network grown during the SIS days of WWII.  When the word went out to find Oswald, even Hoover's FBI asset at Gobernacion (11/8) had no evidence of his being there... while the CIA came to their own conclusions

63-11-04 FBI Mexi file 105-3702 NARA 124-10230-10426 - Thorough check 11-4-63 thru 11-23 Oswald did NOT met pro-Cuban or Soviet groups and OSwald UNKNOWN to all Mexi informants - composite.jpg  63-11-27 Russ Holmes 104-10434-10093  NOVEMBER 27 - Records reveal no trace of Oswald - plus no Arrival or departure records for him 1959 to present.jpg

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One more thing Paul

Quote

The Cuban consul remembered LHO as "blonde," and many CTers try to make much of that -- but actually most Mexicans are black haired or dark-brown haired -- that is, Mexicans are by far mostly brunette.  LHO had "light brown hair," and for many Mexicans, that qualifies as "blonde."  That's really all there was to that.

Here is what Azcue and Duran actually said...   "..was not the same man..." while Duran has him barely 5'4" and very skinny.  

Your "excuses" for them notwithstanding, that is not "really all there is to that"...  and for you to think so and offer such a conclusion gives me an idea of the depth of your intent in finding the facts... as opposed to creating your own.

...."but he could be convinced he was wrong bu scientific evidence"...  Gotta leave a little wiggle room..  lol

 

Edited by David Josephs

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Very nice David.

The idea that the alleged journey to Mexico City was a Guy Banister operation is pretty silly.

Because by this time, Oswald's anti FPCC charade was complete.  Shaw and Ferrie had tried to get him a position up in Jackson, but did not know about the voter registration drive going on, where literally dozens of people saw them together.  So Oswald then meets with Phillips in Dallas at the Southland Center.

Coincidence?  I don't think so.  Phillips was in charge of the CIA's anti FPCC campaign at the time along with McCord.  Hunt later said the DRE were Dave Phillips' boys.  And then someone goes to MC wanting to get to Cuba and then Russia--where in fact we know that Phillips had first glance at all the photo and audio surveillance at that consulate.  In his stead, his assistant took it for him, Anne Goodpasture.  And somehow Anne thought the Mystery Man was Oswald.  (Which, if you read the Lopez Report, was all most likely a bunch of malarkey.)

The idea that that was a Banister operation is well, hmm.  Especially when we know a Mr. Phillips from Washington was in Banister's office in 1961.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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14 hours ago, David Josephs said:

... Paul, if you don't know about what occurs at each of the Mexican bus stations once the investigation was set in motion, you're not looking.

Ask yourself...  why would the FBI go thru all that trouble to create fake evidence of his trip when it's the CIA who claims he was there?
What possible reason could Hoover need to put Oswald on buses to and from Mexico City for those specific days?  Where was he seen with 2 Cubans? Where does he claim he was for that week - for it certainly was not Mexico..  (hint: Odio)

What do you supposed Hoover means here about "the false story re Oswald's trip to Mexico"?  and again... if he KNOWS this, why does he not let the altered Frontera bus manifest stand as evidence and put the CIA on the defensive...  they were always warring with each other. 

David,

It will take me a few days to respond fully to your post here, due to all my commitments.   But I will say something about these points.

1. I have examined all the data of the Mexican bus stations, and I am convinced that LHO was never on any bus going into Mexico City or leaving Mexico City.

2.  Mexican Immigration records show that LHO entered Mexico as a passenger in a car, and LHO exited Mexico as a passenger in a car.  (My best guess today is that Harry Dean's story is correct -- Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove LHO to Mexico City via Dallas, and stopped off for a visit to Sylvia Odio on the way.)

3. The FBI did not create any fake evidence -- the evidence fell into its lap.  In every murder case there are always "mistaken identity" witnesses that come forward.   All the FBI had to do in the case of the Mexican bus passengers who claimed to have seen LHO on their bus was wait for some wonky "mistaken identity" witnesses, and pretend to take them seriously.   The FBI didn't need to invent anything. 

4. Yet, why would the FBI bother to dally with these "mistaken Identity" cases at all?  The reason is that J. Edgar Hoover had demanded from all FBI agents any evidence -- tampered or not -- which showed that LHO was a 'Lone Nut, without any accomplices of any kind at all.'

5.  If the real truth was known -- i.e. that LHO entered and exited Mexico as a passenger in a car -- then it would be obvious that LHO had accomplices.  That was absolutely forbidden by J. Edgar Hoover.

6. The reason that the FBI and the CIA clashed on their goals was explained brilliantly by Bill Simpich (2014) when he said that the CIA was stunned about the October 1, 1963 IMPERSONATION of LHO in Mexico City.  They knew it wasn't LHO on that Cuban telephone to the USSR Embassy -- but who was it?  They started a Top-Secret Mole Hunt that very day, and in LHO's 201 file they changed LHO's middle name to HENRY, and they took out all the photos of LHO and put in a photo of this big Russian dude.  The CIA was clueless.

7.  So, the answer is simple.  Hoover said LHO was on busses, because that's how a "Lone Nut" travels -- alone.

8.  LHO was certainly in Mexico City.  It is very plain in the Lopez Report.  I'm very busy now, but in a few days I'll post several quotes from the Lopez Report to demonstrate my point.

9.  Finally, "the false story re Oswald's trip to Mexico" is the story that LHO called for KGB agent Kostikov from the Cuban telephone to the USSR Embassy.   The CIA knew it was false.  Hoover knew it was false.  Only the Reds-did-it CTers' still believe that lie.  Read Bill Simpich.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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Back on topic.

 

I will ask again David:  Who do you think Bosch was doing all that film flammery for?

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Well Jim, according to LOZANO, BOSCH was an officer with the "Presidential staff"... yet he was not the only one.

 

WCD 78 p1  tells us that by Nov 23th the FBI had information that the Mexican Officials were able to find and relay information from the “official records” of the Mexican Government which they had been alerted to no later than the early morning of Nov 23rd.    A few pages later the FBI tells us that according to their Mexican confidential sources, Oswald was on the Transportes Frontera bus #340 leaving at 1pm Oct 2nd.  This information not only turns out to be wrong but specifically created by a Mexican Presidential Staff Official Arturo Bosch in front of the bus line personnel.

I believe this is from part 3 of the Mexico series:

WCD 1084, from June 10, 1964, is a 200 page report that reinforces among many things that these records were not available, nor were the duplicates at HQ.   WCD 1084 continues with ALEJANDRO SAUCEDO describing what he experienced not long after the assassination when these unknown authorities take their desired records. 

WCD 1084 p106-108 In Summary:

Alejandro SAUCEDO, manager Flecha Rojas bus terminal Mexico City, tells us that “soon after the assassination” the Flecha Rojas evidence was taken by “unidentified investigators” of the Mexican Government.  He felt the name LEE HARVEY OSWALD did not appear thereon.

SAUCEDO claims these men were only interested in the info related to bus #516 on Sept 26th. 

These men tell SAUCEDO that THEY WERE JUST AT FRONTERA where they located the PASSENGER list for Oswald’s departure from Mexico City.*

Mr. SAUCEDO, as told by the same informant: T-12, added on April 2nd that the two men who took the evidence were Policia Federal Judicial (PJF) and that they already had Flecha Rojas duplicate from Nuevo Laredo. 

On March 24th, a week or so earlier, the DFS Assistant Director BARRIOS informs us that the DFS did NOT conduct an investigation with regards to Oswald’s travel. 

    *We come to find only a few pages prior in this same report that the FRONTERA evidence was “corrected” by Arturo Bosch of      the Mexican Presidential Staff.  WCD 1084 p103

"Shortly after the assassination" appears again and again in reference to Mexican officials arriving at bus companies and "borrowing" the manifests for specific dates....

One wonders how they would know which bus manifests to change or "borrow" so soon after the assassination...

64-05-18 WCD 1084 p103 LOZANO tells us that BOSCH filled in the blank form and changed info.jpg

CE2453 - BOSCH changes Frontera within hours of the assassination.jpg   64-04-02 WCD 1084 p107 SAUCEDO tells story of the taking of Flecha Rojas bus manifest Oswald to Mexico.jpg

CE 2741 QUIROGA and ALVARADO corroborate BOSCH.jpg

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PAUL - I ADDRESSED ALL YOUR POINT BUT THEN LOST THE POST.

QUICKLY, YES THERE IS EVIDENCE OF A MR. OSWALD AND A MR. LEE.  DO YOU KNOW WHERE THIS ORIGINATES AND HOW IT WAS TRANSMITTED AS EVIDENCE?  DO YOU KNOW FROM WHERE THE SOURCE MATERIAL FOR THESE CARDS ORIGINATES AND WHO CREATED THEM AND THE ORIGINATING INFO?  OF COURSE NOT.  SO BEFORE YOU DECLARE VICTORY REGARDING HIS TRAVELING IN A CAR, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CONFLICTS WITH WHICH TO CONTEND.

63-11-23 Tijerina 3x5 cards.jpg

 

THE ANSWER IS NOT SIMPLE PAUL.  MAYBE IF YOU TOOK THE TIME TO READ THE WORK, YOU'D HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHICH YOU SPEAK.  

KOSTIKOV, BTW, ORIGINATES FROM THE RUSSIAN SIDE OF THE CALL, NOT THE OSWALD SIDE.  THE TRANSCRIPTS ARE VERY CLEAR ON THIS.  THE STATE DEPARTMENT WHO WAS HELPING THE STORY ALONG FOR THE CIA PRESENTED THIS INFORMATION TO IN&S WHO FORWARDED IT TO HOSTY AT THE FBI.   (THE "CC" BLACKED OUT ON THIS COPY SAYS IN&S)

THE PHOTO IS A FILE COPY OF KOSTIKOV, WHO TO ME LOOKS A LOT LIKE OSWALD.

FINALLY, I HAVE READ BILL'S WORK AND ENJOYED IT IMMENSELY.  HE'S BEEN A GREAT ASSET IN HELPING ME FIND DOCS AND IDENTIFY THE ABBREVIATIONS.  WHETHER HE IS CORRECT OR NOT ABOUT THOSE 5 DAYS, IDK.

IN MY DEFENSE, WHATEVER DID HAPPEN HAS LITTLE BEARING ON THE EVIDENCE OF THE TRIP AS PRESENTED OR DOES ANYTHING TO CHANGE THE FACT OSWALD WAS IN DALLAS AT ODIO'S FRIDAY NIGHT AND AT SPORTS DROME THAT WEEKEND...

Libeler: The Commission had information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was LEE HARVEY OSWALD?
Price: That's right. The first time I saw this person was in September, the last week, the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon they opened the rifle range.
Libeler: On the last Saturday of September? That would be Saturday, September 28, 1963?
Price: Yes.

AN OSWALD WOULD BE SEEN AT THIS SHOOTING RANGE A NUMBER OF WEEKENDS WHEN HARVEY'S LOCATION WAS WELL KNOWN

Between November 9th and 22nd the record appears exceedingly thin with respect to Mexico City yet a number of other interesting event occur that allow us to understand some of the context of the times.  On Friday November 8th Oswald rides back to Irving with Wesley.  Michael gives Oswald a driving lesson on Saturday the 9th while sightings of another Oswald are reported at the Sports Drome. 

WCD 7 contains interviews of Slack, Price and Davis who corroborate seeing someone they identified as Oswald at the range on November 9th, 10th and 17th.

 

 

Quote

63-10-16 WIN SCOTT says Lee HENRY in Mexico  and sees Kostikov.jpg

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

63-09-17 Oswald Mexico visa application an FM-5 not an FM-8.jpg

63-09-17 Mexican tourist visa - original only with no FM-11 number.jpg

63-11-27 1996 ARRB release TRIP TO MEXICO p6 - Mann says only info on Oswald in Mexico is from Embassy and Hotel.jpg

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David,

You're mistaken about any sighting of Lee Harvey Oswald at any shooting range.  All those sighting were cases of "mistaken identity."

In fact, the bulk of your "Harvey and Lee" CT is based on many different cases of "mistaken identity."

Many murder cases have witnesses coming forward out of a sense of duty, with what turn out to be cases of "mistaken identity."

In famous murder cases, the volume of these cases increases.   In the JFK murder, there were many cases of "mistaken identity," and the Warren Commission volumes contain many such cases.

The Mexico bus witnesses are some.  The Dealey Plaza bus driver and taxi driver are two more.  The car dealership witness is another.  The rifle repair man who mounted scopes was yet another.  The Irving gas station witnesses are two more.  The Irving barber shop is another.  The shooting range sighting were even more.

A careful reading of their WC testimonies showed that they contradicted themselves and each other -- and often would not stand by their own memories.   Pitiful.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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David 

I agree. Oswald never made it to MC. 

After the assassination when Hoover decided not to be a team player the CIA had to fake Oswald in MC or the lone nut theory could not be justified. 

I believe the military was running an Operation Northwoods caper with Oswald to set up Castro and the Soviet Union as the perpetrators of the assassination. They had decided they could get to Castro by killing Kennedy and blaming Castro. When Hoover blew the whistle on the impersonation the CIA stepped in and faked evidence to place Lee Harvey Oswald in MC.

Mystery man is an attempt by Philips to distance himself from Oswald. Mystery man is not part of the military caper. 

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George - couple of points:

If JFK had been injured, or even just shot at and missed, and the would be assassin had been caught and identified with Castro, would that not have accomplished the same goal? Inotherwords, why kill JFK? 

Other point, referencing something you said on a different thread, do you suppose that it was some rogue CIA operation with no US military component? 

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Posted (edited)

Quote

You're mistaken about any sighting of Lee Harvey Oswald at any shooting range.  All those sighting were cases of "mistaken identity."

So easy for you to post - not so easy for you to prove.  Besides how can you be 100% sure about "all" those sightings?  There is nothing offered in the evidence which excludes LH Oswald from being at that range on that Saturday...  

Later in Nov is a different story...

Odio says Oswald was at her house in Dallas Friday night 9/27
Odio's sister says Oswald was at their house

He is seen at the Sports Drome in Dallas...  what about the other places he was seen on his way up to Dallas from New Orleans Paul?

Something about his being in Austin?

One of these witnesses, a waitress who claims to have served Oswald stated she has Wednesdays off. Sept 25th was a Wednesday and the day Mrs. Dannelly sees Oswald, so by process of elimination Mrs. Norman could not have seen Oswald. When shown a photo of HARVEY, both Ronnie Dugger and Mrs. Stella Norman claim the person they met was “identical with Oswald”. While the possibility remains that it was Lee coming down from Dallas who was seen in Austin on the 25th there would be no need to backtrack 165 miles East to Houston when Lee could have caught a bus in San Antonio 80 miles to the SW. Depending of course on how he gets from Dallas to Houston.

 

Here is the entire trip...  yknow Paul, maybe go to KINGS and read the work before you comment.   btw - did you post the LOPEZ evidence of Oswald in Mexico yet?

Have you even found it yet?  Do you know what you're talking about at all?

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

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5 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

George - couple of points:

If JFK had been injured, or even just shot at and missed, and the would be assassin had been caught and identified with Castro, would that not have accomplished the same goal? Inotherwords, why kill JFK? 

Other point, referencing something you said on a different thread, do you suppose that it was some rogue CIA operation with no US military component? 

Hope you don't mind my chiming in....

I don't see how it's possible for any Rogue CIA group to influence and/or accomplish what occurs at Bethesda - that is pure Military every step of the way.
Can you name a single CIA agent possibly involved here NOT in the military at some point in their career?

We should also remember that the Castro angle, and the Mexico charade were designed to keep investigators away from getting too close to the truth.
We see this plainly in the manner CUBA and CASTRO were summarily dropped once JFK was no longer there.  Involving Castro's Cuba was imo nothing more than leverage to be used against the FBI,  to keep their focus on the CIA as opposed to the Military masters running that show.

Don't we suppose that if Rogue CIA was behind this the result would show the truth, multiple shooters setting Oswald up in a Castro Conspiracy (which is why the other shooters were probably Cuban or Cuban related to complete the frame).  Rogue CIA agents wouldn't want a simple patsy explanation, that leaves them nowhere in their fight against Communism in the Western Hemisphere.  They played down the communism, they played down Russia and created a disgruntled Lone Nut.

Back-up plan?  Leave Cuba then and focus the growing efforts where the cash crop generates limitless black money... and is not 90 miles away.

I truly think people forget that the history of intelligence is the history of the ONI and MIA/MID, the FBI's SIS, the OSS - all military organizations.  The CIA's above board budget comes from Defense.  It's black budget comes from Military-supported CIA activity.  Fletcher Prouty's knowledge of the CIA, from his Military position should be more than enough proof the CIA and Military Ind Complex run hand in hand

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Paul

Kennedy had to be killed. (The CIA was on the verge of being eliminated by the president.)  And in a way where Castro would be blamed. That is the reason for the impersonation of Oswald in MC. The operation to impersonate Oswald was a military operation.

Eisenhower was asked why he didn´t attack Cuba from the start and get rid of the communist menace once and for all. He said he would but he needed a reason to do it. Castro up until that time hadn´t given Eisenhower a reason to take him out. Then Operation Northwoods was invented. To give the US president, other than Kennedy of course, rational to take out Castro. One can say that it was Eisenhower who got the ball rolling on the invention of Operation Northwoods.

I believe the military may have provided logistics for the assassination. I don´t think they were involved in the plotting of the assassination. But they certainly were involved in the coverup.

I believe the military was ready to do anything they were asked to help the plotters. It´s just that the military wasn´t needed to plan the assassination; the plotters already had who they thought was the best at planning coups.

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George and David - those were the points I was trying to make with my questions. Way too little examination of our military, and not just the autopsy. Cuban invasion may have been the overt motive, but history to me demonstrates another agenda. We never did invade Cuba. It was small potatoes. Hatred of Castro may have motivated some part of the operation, but it wasn't the prime motive. 

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