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Robert Prudhomme

Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure??

32 posts in this topic

Hello folks! I'm back, and I have a surprise for you. As you will recall, I was trying to find out how tall Bill Shelley was in 1963, as the "Shelley" in the Darnell film is clearly an inch or two taller than the 5'8" tall "Lovelady" he was supposedly walking hand in hand with on their way to the rail yard.

A while back, I sent out two letters; one to a William Boyd Shelley of Dallas, Texas who is reputedly the son of the late William Hoyt Shelley and one to a journalist from Austin, Texas who interviewed Shelley in the early 1970's. The journalist will remain anonymous for the moment although I'm sure it won't take some of you long to figure out who he is. 

I never received an answer from Shelley, Jr. but the journalist wrote back to me not that long ago. Here is the contents of his letter.

"Dear Mr. Prudhomme

Your question about Bill Shelley's height is difficult to answer. At the time I met Shelley in the early 1970's, he was perhaps 5-5 or 5-6. However, he told an employee (TSBD employee?) he was once two inches taller. According to the employee, Shelley claimed he broke his back in a car accident sometime after the assassination. Subsequent surgery supposedly left him two inches shorter. Shelley never mentioned the car accident in my presence, but the employee was a reliable source and Shelley's claim would have been plausible. Moreover, I recall Shelley was slightly misshaped as if he had indeed lost a couple of inches of height above the hips.

For the sake of clarity, I met Shelley while he was working at the Scott Foresman school book warehouse in Northwest Dallas. This was the new home of the old Texas School Book Depository. As for Shelley, after reading his Warren Commission testimony years later I realized I had learned little new information about him. Perhaps my biggest takeaway from the experience was a strong suspicion the Texas School Book Depository was a storefront for domestic intelligence. After the assassination, the storefront may have been moved to the new Scott Foresman warehouse in Northwest Dallas.

Hope this information sheds a little light for you. Very best of luck.

Sincerely

**** *****

Austin, Texas"

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So the supposed Shelley and Lovelady we see walking down Elm Street extension should be about the same height, according to this reporter's recollection. And yet the Shelley character is shown to be taller in the film.

That's just one more nail in the Shelley-Lovelady-walking-down-the-extension coffin. Not a big nail because we are going by this guy's memory and height estimate. But a nail nonetheless.

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FWIW

I find the identification of the two people walking in the Couch film as Shelley and Lovelady less than convincing ?

clearer frames are needed to make a positive identification.

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Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

FWIW

I find the identification of the two people walking in the Couch film as Shelley and Lovelady less than convincing ?

clearer frames are needed to make a positive identification.

I was suspicious of this claim from the very beginning, Robin. The still that was chosen to show them waking "together" was contradicted by a slow motion version of the Darnell film, showing "Lovelady" catching up to and passing "Shelley" without even the slightest nod of recognition. Of course, though, there are those who can also see "Calvery" running behind Baker and shouting to "Shelley" and "Baker" as she runs by. These are the same people who are able to see long hair, buttons and a dress on Prayer Man.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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From the FBI statement of William H. Shelley, March 18, 1964:

" Immediately following the shooting, Billy P Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later . I remained in the building until about 1 :30 PM when I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept . t o furnish an affidavit . 1 returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building about 5 PM . I did not leave the building until about 7 PM that day ."

That's funny, I don't see any uniformed police officers walking with "Shelley & Lovelady" in the Darnell film. Maybe I need a photo expert to help me see them.

Thomas, do you know any photo experts here?

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Just now, Robert Prudhomme said:

From the FBI statement of William H. Shelley, March 18, 1964:

" Immediately following the shooting, Billy P Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later . I remained in the building until about 1 :30 PM when I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept . t o furnish an affidavit . 1 returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building about 5 PM . I did not leave the building until about 7 PM that day ."

That's funny, I don't see any uniformed police officers walking with "Shelley & Lovelady" in the Darnell film. Maybe I need a photo expert to help me see them.

Thomas, do you know any photo experts here?

Robert,

I'm afraid that William Miller's the best we've got, Bob.

--  Tommy :sun

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14 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

From the FBI statement of William H. Shelley, March 18, 1964:

" Immediately following the shooting, Billy P Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later . I remained in the building until about 1 :30 PM when I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept . t o furnish an affidavit . 1 returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building about 5 PM . I did not leave the building until about 7 PM that day ."

That's funny, I don't see any uniformed police officers walking with "Shelley & Lovelady" in the Darnell film. Maybe I need a photo expert to help me see them.

Once again you fail to understand the purpose of an affidavit. It is a general statement that sets the groundwork for later testimony. It's a figure of speech given by the person who wrote the statement. Lovelady and Shelley noticed police officers running towards the RR Yard, so they walked up that way as well. I do not know of anyone who thought that both BS and BL were implying that they went arm and arm to the RR Yard with the police officers who went there ..... at least not until now.    :)

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21 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Once again you fail to understand the purpose of an affidavit. It is a general statement that sets the groundwork for later testimony. It's a figure of speech given by the person who wrote the statement. Lovelady and Shelley noticed police officers running towards the RR Yard, so they walked up that way as well. I do not know of anyone who thought that both BS and BL were implying that they went arm and arm to the RR Yard with the police officers who went there ..... at least not until now.    :)

Wow, Bill, that is absolutely ridiculous.

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Let me guess. Bill Shelley was using alternative facts, right? 

What does the word "accompany" mean, Bill?

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17 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Let me guess. Bill Shelley was using alternative facts, right? 

What does the word "accompany" mean, Bill?

Let not what the FBI interviewer who took Shelley's general statement interpreted it for you  - - - -  Let Bill Shelley in his WC testimony tell you.

Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.

As I recall - Shelley and Lovelady went immediately to the Island - once there they observed Police running towards the RR Yard - and then decided to walk down that way to see what was going on.

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ac·com·pa·ny
əˈkəmp(ə)nē/
verb
 
  1. 1.
    go somewhere with (someone) as a companion or escort.
    "the two sisters were to accompany us to New York"
    synonyms: go with, travel with, keep someone company, tag along with, hang out with; More
     
     
  2. 2.
    be present or occur at the same time as (something else).
    "the illness is often accompanied by nausea"
    synonyms: occur with, co-occur with, coexist with, go with, go together with, go hand in hand with, appear with, be attended by
    "the illness is often accompanied by nausea"

As far as I can see, Bill, the two men in the Darnell film are nowhere close to anything resembling a police officer. In fact, they are not even accompanying each other.

Of course, you're the photographic expert, and you might have a different opinion.

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Posted (edited)

On 3/3/2017 at 10:08 AM, Bill Miller said:

 

Let not what the FBI interviewer who took Shelley's general statement interpreted it for you  - - - -  Let Bill Shelley in his WC testimony tell you.

Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.

As I recall - Shelley and Lovelady went immediately to the Island - once there they observed Police running towards the RR Yard - and then decided to walk down that way to see what was going on.

Bill, 

I find this convincing.   I also find the WC testimonies of Shelly and Lovelady convincing.   I also find the WC testimony of Vickie Adams convincing -- it's only their sense of TIMING that is inaccurate.   As Lovelady said when pressed for exact times -- "I didn't have a stopwatch."

We don't have film of Shelly and Lovelady -- so far -- and so we can't really time their walk from the TSBD front steps to the railroad tracks behind the Grassy Knoll picket fence and back to the TSBD to meet Vickie Adams.

But their sworn testimony has never been proven wrong -- so it stands as FACT in my book.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill, 

I find this convincing.   I also find the WC testimonies of Shelly and Lovelady convincing.   I also find the WC testimony of Vickie Adams convincing -- it's only their sense of TIMING that is inaccurate.   As Lovelady said when pressed for exact times -- "I didn't have a stopwatch."

We don't have film of Shelly and Lovelady -- so far -- and so we can't really time their walk from the TSBD front steps to the railroad tracks behind the Grassy Knoll picket fence and back to the TSBD to meet Vickie Adams.

But their sworn testimony has never been proven wrong -- so it stands as FACT in my book.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

officer%20running_zpsmmvycqm9.jpg

That is correct, Paul.  Even as Shelley and Lovelady were walking on the extension as the running woman (Calvery?) was coming towards them ... there is a police officer seen running down the extension towards the RR Yard. I think someone said that was Joe Marshal Smith. Of course by that time a call had gone out over the police radio for all available men to get up in the  RR Yard to see what had just happened up there.

At this link -   http://www.prayer-man.com/tag/bill-shelley-tsbd/      -   the very first video shows an officer running towards the RR Yard.  An estimate of time was given by either Shelley or Lovelady. Upon hearing the shots.

Before any outside pressures could some into play - Bill Shelley said in his signed 11/22/63 Affidavit that upon hearing the shots that he ran across the street where he met a crying woman named Gloria Calvery

In the testimony of Shelley, he said that he and Lovelady were only on the Island for less than a minute before walking down to the RR Yard where so many officers were moving towards that location. So ball park 25 - 30 seconds on the stairs post assassination - add another 60 seconds to go to the RR Yard. I believe Shelley said they stood in the RR Yard for another minute or two. Of course timing estimates in times of confusion and great stress are seldom accurate.

So yes - it can be said in a general that sense the two men did accompany the many officers who merged upon the RR Yard, but that didn't mean they all got there at the same time like some people may think.

 

Edited by Bill Miller

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18 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

That is correct, Paul.  Even as Shelley and Lovelady were walking on the extension as the running woman (Calvery?) was coming towards them ... there is a police officer seen running down the extension towards the RR Yard. I think someone said that was Joe Marshal Smith. Of course by that time a call had gone out over the police radio for all available men to get up in the  RR Yard to see what had just happened up there.

At this link -   http://www.prayer-man.com/tag/bill-shelley-tsbd/      -   the very first video shows an officer running towards the RR Yard.  An estimate of time was given by either Shelley or Lovelady. Upon hearing the shots.

Before any outside pressures could some into play - Bill Shelley said in his signed 11/22/63 Affidavit that upon hearing the shots that he ran across the street where he met a crying woman named Gloria Calvery

In the testimony of Shelley, he said that he and Lovelady were only on the Island for less than a minute before walking down to the RR Yard where so many officers were moving towards that location. So ball park 25 - 30 seconds on the stairs post assassination - add another 60 seconds to go to the RR Yard. I believe Shelley said they stood in the RR Yard for another minute or two. Of course timing estimates in times of confusion and great stress are seldom accurate.

So yes - it can be said in a general that sense the two men did accompany the many officers who merged upon the RR Yard, but that didn't mean they all got there at the same time like some people may think.

Bill,

Based on this portrait that you've correctly painted, IMHO, we can go further and build a scenario in which Officer Baker not only told the Truth, but was clearly not one of the DPD officers or Dallas Deputies involved in the JFK plot.

I maintain that the fatal shot came from the Grassy Knoll -- and that it was indeed a uniformed Dallas officer who shot that fatal bullet.

That is why so many people at Dealey Plaza -- including innocent DPD policemen -- went running to the Grassy Knoll.

Yes -- the order by Jesse Curry and Bill Decker for police to go there was also a strong motivation.   Yet the public there, who did not hear this order, also ran in droves to the Grassy Knoll -- and when they got there, all they saw were Dallas Police.

Now -- that settled it for perhaps most people -- there could be no assassins behind the Grassy Knoll because there were so many Dallas Police there.  It must have been echoes.

Yet the number of WC witnesses who continued to testify that they certainly, absolutely heard shots from the Grassy Knoll, is remarkable.  Then, Mark Lane found many others who were present at Dealey Plaza that day, but were not called to testify for the WC, and also insisted they heard shots -- and even saw smoke -- from the Grassy Knoll.

Roy Truly himself maintained that shots came from the Grassy Knoll.

Yes -- they did.  But all anybody found behind the Grassy Knoll were Dallas cops and deputies.   WHY DIDN'T ANYBODY TAKE THAT AS A MAJOR CLUE?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

Based on this portrait that you've correctly painted, IMHO, we can go further and build a scenario in which Officer Baker not only told the Truth, but was clearly not one of the DPD officers or Dallas Deputies involved in the JFK plot.

I maintain that the fatal shot came from the Grassy Knoll -- and that it was indeed a uniformed Dallas officer who shot that fatal bullet.

That is why so many people at Dealey Plaza -- including innocent DPD policemen -- went running to the Grassy Knoll.

Yes -- the order by Jesse Curry and Bill Decker for police to go there was also a strong motivation.   Yet the public there, who did not hear this order, also ran in droves to the Grassy Knoll -- and when they got there, all they saw were Dallas Police.

Now -- that settled it for perhaps most people -- there could be no assassins behind the Grassy Knoll because there were so many Dallas Police there.  It must have been echoes.

 

The thing is that there were only a few people in the RR Yard at the time of the shooting. Two of those individuals was referenced by Lee Bowers. The work of Jack White and Gary Mack, along with Gordon Arnold's saying that a shot came by his left ear is evidence that there was one or two more people along the stretch of fence that Arnold stood in front of.

My thoughts on the shots from the knoll:

I believe that the area in front of Lee Bowers was where the first shot came from. Lee mentions a puff smoke or a flash of light at this location that caught his attention. This is the area of the fence that connected the walkway to the Underpass. It is also the same area where the men on the Underpass had seen smoke drift out from under the trees'

If Mack and White's work is valid, which I think it is, then  Badge Man fired a fraction of a second after the kill shot. I say this for several reasons ....

1 -  It's something like .0017th of a second for a muzzle flash to occur. That is less than 1/18th of a second. So for Moorman to have captured the head shot with her camera - there should have been no muzzle flash because 3.6 Zapruder frames ran after the head exploded and before Moorman snapped her cameras shutter.

2 -  Edna Hartman said to researcher Mark Oakes that she witnessed a furrow in the grass on the south pasture that led back towards the large tree above the walkway. Kellerman described the last two shots as coming over the top of one another. He compared them to a plane breaking the sound barrier .... Boom - Boom!  That bullet must have missed all together in order to create a furrow in the ground much like one would see if a mole was tunneling just under the earth.

 

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