JFK Inside the Target Car - Why didn't they listen to me?

[Pamela Brown]

Donner and I have just finished watching this new program. Some of the footage of the replica limo are wonderful, and the footage of the rebuilt limo at Dearborn (I was standing near the cameraman when they were taken) are exquisite. But the main premise of the show is flawed, and even though I have been thoroughly dismayed by the outrageous claims the press release made, I had hopes that it would at least be consistent and accurate.

Most glaring for me, especially since I went over each of the photographs I gave to the producer, Robert E., was that they claimed that the color photographs of the limo interior were taken by the SS the night of the assassination. That is untrue. The black-and-white photos of the limo interior were taken by the FBI during their forensic exam at 1 a.m. 11.23.63. The SS photos were not taken until late the following afternoon, long after the FBI had taken the car apart for its exams.

Another glaring error is that they claimed they were duplicating Z312 in the re-enactment shots, but that was not the case; the positions of both JFK and Jackie were quite different. This is something that should have been quickly caught.

I am even more puzzled now than before at the fantastic claims made in the press release. The TSBD shot takes off the top of JFK's head -- did it not occur to anyone that this would invalidate the autopsy photos and x-rays?

[William Kelly]

How many threads are there going to be on this subject? Aren't there already two threads going? BK

Donner and I have just finished watching this new program. Some of the footage of the replica limo are wonderful, and the footage of the rebuilt limo at Dearborn (I was standing near the cameraman when they were taken) are exquisite. But the main premise of the show is flawed, and even though I have been thoroughly dismayed by the outrageous claims the press release made, I had hopes that it would at least be consistent and accurate.

Most glaring for me, especially since I went over each of the photographs I gave to the producer, Robert E., was that they claimed that the color photographs of the limo interior were taken by the SS the night of the assassination. That is untrue. The black-and-white photos of the limo interior were taken by the FBI during their forensic exam at 1 a.m. 11.23.63. The SS photos were not taken until late the following afternoon, long after the FBI had taken the car apart for its exams.

Another glaring error is that they claimed they were duplicating Z312 in the re-enactment shots, but that was not the case; the positions of both JFK and Jackie were quite different. This is something that should have been quickly caught.

I am even more puzzled now than before at the fantastic claims made in the press release. The TSBD shot takes off the top of JFK's head -- did it not occur to anyone that this would invalidate the autopsy photos and x-rays?

[Bill Charleston]

Another glaring error is that they claimed they were duplicating Z312 in the re-enactment shots, but that was not the case; the positions of both JFK and Jackie were quite different. This is something that should have been quickly caught.

I am even more puzzled now than before at the fantastic claims made in the press release. The TSBD shot takes off the top of JFK's head -- did it not occur to anyone that this would invalidate the autopsy photos and x-rays?

I'm in shock that Gary Mack would run around and try to claim the shots fired on the show proved anything. Actually I'm not, I'm too familiar with his MO.

The newer "documentaries" have buried virtually all the witnesses and now try to prove the faked evidence held by the government is valid. A doctor standing a couple of feet away from JFK's head who says the back of JFK's head had a massive wound is good enough for me, but when you have sixteen saying basically the autopsy photos do not match the wounds they saw in Dallas, that is overwhelming.

Trying to recreate the splatter seen in the faked Zapruder film, trying to recreate wounds in the faked autopsy photos and X-rays....... Guys like Gary Mack will do anything to keep the public from figuring out what now is a pretty transparent lie.

[Pamela Brown]

The first thread was for the press release and blurbs being spawned on the internet following the NBC/MSNBC preview and news article. This one is for the program itself.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[Gil Jesus]

I'm in shock that Gary Mack would run around and try to claim the shots fired on the show proved anything. Actually I'm not, I'm too familiar with his MO.

The newer "documentaries" have buried virtually all the witnesses and now try to prove the faked evidence held by the government is valid. A doctor standing a couple of feet away from JFK's head who says the back of JFK's head had a massive wound is good enough for me, but when you have sixteen saying basically the autopsy photos do not match the wounds they saw in Dallas, that is overwhelming.

Trying to recreate the splatter seen in the faked Zapruder film, trying to recreate wounds in the faked autopsy photos and X-rays....... Guys like Gary Mack will do anything to keep the public from figuring out what now is a pretty transparent lie.

Bill, might I suggest a possible reason why the Sixth Floor Museum and thus Mr. Mack would seem to have a vested interest in the "Oswald-did-it" scenario. There are tourist dollars at stake here. If the TSBD was NOT the source of the shots that killed Kennedy and wounded Connally, then the value of the building as a tourist attraction is considerably less.

Mack didn't support the official version of events until he was hired by the Sixth Floor Museum.

In my book, that says it all.

[John Simkin]

Bill, might I suggest a possible reason why the Sixth Floor Museum and thus Mr. Mack would seem to have a vested interest in the "Oswald-did-it" scenario. There are tourist dollars at stake here. If the TSBD was NOT the source of the shots that killed Kennedy and wounded Connally, then the value of the building as a tourist attraction is considerably less.

Mack didn't support the official version of events until he was hired by the Sixth Floor Museum.

In my book, that says it all.

Very good point. Market forces at work.

[John Simkin]

Bill, might I suggest a possible reason why the Sixth Floor Museum and thus Mr. Mack would seem to have a vested interest in the "Oswald-did-it" scenario. There are tourist dollars at stake here. If the TSBD was NOT the source of the shots that killed Kennedy and wounded Connally, then the value of the building as a tourist attraction is considerably less.

Mack didn't support the official version of events until he was hired by the Sixth Floor Museum.

In my book, that says it all.

Very good point. Market forces at work.

Message from Gary Mack:

Comments like yours and Gil's show appalling ignorance. The Museum would benefit dramatically if a conspiracy were proven, for its 330,000+ annual visitors would be asking for more information about what happened.

The Discovery test could have proven conspiracy, but since the tests conclusively showed the fatal shot came from behind, not from the knoll, that's what we reported.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

[Message from Gary Mack:

[The Discovery test could have proven conspiracy, but since the tests conclusively showed the fatal shot came from behind, not from the knoll, that's what we reported.[/color]

Wishful thinking by Gary and the Discovery team, I'm afraid.

The test showed that a rifle shot from the TSBD COULD have created the blood spatter seen on the ZFilm, but the wound created by this rifle shot does not resemble JFK's wound.

Although the Discovery test tries to dodge the whole issue of JFK's dramatic back/left movement seen in the Z film, the test is consistent with the army tests that DISPROVED the Jet Effect theory. The Discovery test confirms that a bullet from behind will drive the victim's head forward, away from the shooter, and therefore is evidence that the fatal shot did NOT come from the TSBD.

JFK's left/backward movement indicates the fatal shot came from the knoll, and the Discovery test indicates that the knoll shot was NOT fired from a high-powered rifle. No surprise there, since Hatman was well within pistol range.

Thank you, Gary. Nice work.

[Wim Dankbaar]

Ernst Kaltenbrunner was once a feared and respected man. Another day he was sentenced to death.

[Pamela Brown]

Message from Gary Mack:

The Discovery test could have proven conspiracy, but since the tests conclusively showed the fatal shot came from behind, not from the knoll, that's what we reported.[/color]

The tests proved nothing 'conclusively' except to those unaware of the fallacy of false alternatives. In addition, from the manner of bullying going on about the press release and the secrecy of this test, it is evident that the test is not supposed to be open to scrutiny. That is also a very weak position.

Here are only a smidgen of the numerous issues:

The tests were staged to give a desired effect -- the 'wind' was deliberately designed to encourage splatter. The claim was that a 25 mph wind was needed to simulate the actual wind plus movement of the car is false. The car was not going 10 mps at Z313, it had slowed nearly to a stop.

As far as the GK shot is concerned, what was proven is that a high-powered rifle did not fire the fatal headshot from that position. But then, whoever said it did? The Z312 position was misrepresented in the re-enactment. There is simply no excuse for that. Had Jackie and JFK been in the Z312 position and the gun a handgun or one with low power, the result would have been different. Of course, Jackie was nearly killed by the fatal bullet. That's why she climbed out the back of the car.

[Pamela Brown]

[Message from Gary Mack:

[The Discovery test could have proven conspiracy, but since the tests conclusively showed the fatal shot came from behind, not from the knoll, that's what we reported.[/color]

Wishful thinking by Gary and the Discovery team, I'm afraid.

The test showed that a rifle shot from the TSBD COULD have created the blood spatter seen on the ZFilm, but the wound created by this rifle shot does not resemble JFK's wound.

Although the Discovery test tries to dodge the whole issue of JFK's dramatic back/left movement seen in the Z film, the test is consistent with the army tests that DISPROVED the Jet Effect theory. The Discovery test confirms that a bullet from behind will drive the victim's head forward, away from the shooter, and therefore is evidence that the fatal shot did NOT come from the TSBD.

JFK's left/backward movement indicates the fatal shot came from the knoll, and the Discovery test indicates that the knoll shot was NOT fired from a high-powered rifle. No surprise there, since Hatman was well within pistol range.

Thank you, Gary. Nice work.

The team completely sidestepped the issue of the Z313 head movement by claiming that the neck of the model was rigid or words to that effect. Fair enough. But based on that fact alone, how could anyone possibly claim that any results were anything other than a test, a well-intended attempt? The scenario even at this point is quite different from that of the actual events. This should have been acknowledged in the program and, most of all, in the publicity, which misrepresented the test as something more.

[Gil Jesus]

Message from Gary Mack:

Comments like yours and Gil's show appalling ignorance.

John:

It is unfortunate that we all can't be like Mr. Mack

We can't all ignore the eyewitnesses.

We can't all ignore the tampering with the evidence.

We can't all ignore the "fixed" police lineups.

We can't all ignore the last-minute changes to the motorcade security that removed the President's protection.

We can't all ignore that two rifles were brought into the building two days after the motorcade route was published in the Dallas papers.

We can't all ignore that the rifle in the BY photo had bottom mounts for the sling and the depository rifle had side mounts.

We can't all ignore that no transcript was made of the Oswald interrogation sessions.

We can't all ignore that Oswald was questioned without counsel, that his sleep was interrupted by a 1:35 am arraignment, or that his wife was denied the opportunity to speak with him on the night of the 22nd.

We can't all ignore that Jack Ruby was stalking Oswald on Friday and Saturday, before gaining unprecedented access to the Dallas Police garage on Sunday morning.

We can't all ignore that the rifle shells found on the sixth floor of the TSBD had been in other rifles.

We can't ignore that no one saw him bring a package into the building.

We can't ignore that no one saw him fire the rifle.

We can't ignore that the rifle was never checked to see if it had been fired.

We can't ignore that there's no evidence that Oswald ever bought ammunition for EITHER weapon.

We can't ignore that there's no evidence that Oswald ever loaded the clip/ammuntion.

These are all things that you'd need to ignore in order to believe that Oswald-did-it.

Mr. Mack once wrote:

"As for Oswald knowing Ruby, there is NO credible evidence whatsoever they were acquainted."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...966a462eacea353

Witnesses answer the question as to whether or not Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald knew each other:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcVM_UbBIyI

That's just one more thing we can ignore.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Gil Jesus

[Pamela Brown]

The DC made a correction in the show that I requested and that was, in fact, the reason for this thread. The corrected show aired in December and last night.

The SS photos CE 352-353 were taken late Saturday afternoon 11.23.63. The narrative is now corrected (from saying they had been taken at 1 a.m.) to say that they were taken the next day. Interestingly, it also says that the blood spatter is hard to see. That is an understatement. The limo had undergone two or three informal exams by the SS, a formal forensic exam by the FBI during which the back seat was taken out, and much manhandling of the limo had occurred.

The greater flaw in the show in this regard, however, for which no change was made, is that they use these photos to try to get a witness to corroborate what he saw. This is specious to begin with, because nobody really had a chance to look inside the limo after the assassination long enough to make any assessment. The top was put up quickly upon the arrival at Parkland Hospital.

Next, the car was swabbed out to some extent while at PH. The most benign reason for the bucket and cloth that are visible in a couple of photos of the limo at PH is that the areas affected by putting up the roof were washed. Who knows what changes were made because of that cleaning?

So, the fragile thesis of this part of the show fails to demonstrate much of anything to anyone except perhaps the very, very naive. Oh, and the WC apologists, of course. They love this stuff.

[David G. Healy]

The DC made a correction in the show that I requested and that was, in fact, the reason for this thread. The corrected show aired in December and last night.

The SS photos CE 352-353 were taken late Saturday afternoon 11.23.63. The narrative is now corrected (from saying they had been taken at 1 a.m.) to say that they were taken the next day. Interestingly, it also says that the blood spatter is hard to see. That is an understatement. The limo had undergone two or three informal exams by the SS, a formal forensic exam by the FBI during which the back seat was taken out, and much manhandling of the limo had occurred.

The greater flaw in the show in this regard, however, for which no change was made, is that they use these photos to try to get a witness to corroborate what he saw. This is specious to begin with, because nobody really had a chance to look inside the limo after the assassination long enough to make any assessment. The top was put up quickly upon the arrival at Parkland Hospital.

Next, the car was swabbed out to some extent while at PH. The most benign reason for the bucket and cloth that are visible in a couple of photos of the limo at PH is that the areas affected by putting up the roof were washed. Who knows what changes were made because of that cleaning?

So, the fragile thesis of this part of the show fails to demonstrate much of anything to anyone except perhaps the very, very naive. Oh, and the WC apologists, of course. They love this stuff.

is that shorthand for a compromised crime scene?

[Pamela Brown]

The DC made a correction in the show that I requested and that was, in fact, the reason for this thread. The corrected show aired in December and last night.

The SS photos CE 352-353 were taken late Saturday afternoon 11.23.63. The narrative is now corrected (from saying they had been taken at 1 a.m.) to say that they were taken the next day. Interestingly, it also says that the blood spatter is hard to see. That is an understatement. The limo had undergone two or three informal exams by the SS, a formal forensic exam by the FBI during which the back seat was taken out, and much manhandling of the limo had occurred.

The greater flaw in the show in this regard, however, for which no change was made, is that they use these photos to try to get a witness to corroborate what he saw. This is specious to begin with, because nobody really had a chance to look inside the limo after the assassination long enough to make any assessment. The top was put up quickly upon the arrival at Parkland Hospital.

Next, the car was swabbed out to some extent while at PH. The most benign reason for the bucket and cloth that are visible in a couple of photos of the limo at PH is that the areas affected by putting up the roof were washed. Who knows what changes were made because of that cleaning?

So, the fragile thesis of this part of the show fails to demonstrate much of anything to anyone except perhaps the very, very naive. Oh, and the WC apologists, of course. They love this stuff.

is that shorthand for a compromised crime scene?

Definitely. The SS had over 12 hours to sanitize the limo before turning it over to the FBI at 1 a.m. 11.23.63. Who knows what had taken place by that time? Who knows what evidence was removed or added? The SS took no notes, took no photos until late Sat afternoon, and drew no diagrams, so we have no record of the condition of the limo between the time of the assassination and the time of the FBI exam.

Of course, this fact didn't bother anyone in the government. Even Robert Frazier, who was in charge of the FBI exam, had no problem accepting the state the limo was in. Of course, at that time, he was not given any information either. He may have been aware that bullet fragments had been 'removed' by the SS and taken to the FBI lab around 10 p.m., along with a piece of skull. But it was bare pickens by the time Frazier and his crew got to the limo -- they were left with the tiny slivers of bullet found on the floor, and the smear of residue on the windshield.