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Roy Kellerman and "the, ah, body..."


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#1 Joseph Backes

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:24 PM

Hello folks,

There's a key section in the new Clifton version of the Air Force One tapes I want to draw your attention to. Doug Horne made his own transcript:

See - http://www.maryferre...do?docId=146531

This is from page 4 and 5 of Horne's transcript.

Crown - (that's the White House) 26000, ah Duplex is on, go ahead

SAM 26000 - [garbled] Stand By

Duplex - (Gerry Behn) Hello

Digest - (Roy Kellerman) Ok. Jerry?

Duplex - Hello

Digest - [garbled] in here now, ah, we're at the airport, 26000, everybody aboard.

Duplex - Okay go ahead

Digest - We're waiting for the swearing in

Duplex - That is for Volunteer, is that right

Digest - Yes, we are having [garbled] before we take off, Jerry

Duplex - That's affirmative. Do you have any idea what, ah, Lace ( Jackie) wants to do and what Volunteer wants to do on their arrival here?

Digest - No, I will call you back. Suggest --we have a 2 hour 15 minute flight into Andrews. We have a full plane of at least 40.

Duplex - Ok, go ahead

Digest - I'll have to call you again after the, ah, body. However, I'm sure the, ah, Volunteer boys will go over his car and so forth. We will need [garbled] and several others.

Duplex - All right, let me know what Volunteer wants to do when they, ah, land if they want to come into Crown by, ah, helicopter.

Digest - That's a Roger. I'll call you again.

Duplex - OK

What does Kellerman mean? What is going on with "the, ah, body?" What is this "after" the body? Officially, its already on board and in the ceremonial bronze casket. Why does Kellerman need to call Behn at the White House again about the body?

See my blog for more. - http://justiceforken...nd-ah-body.html

Joe

#2 David Andrews

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:22 PM

Volunteer = LBJ. Whose car are "the Volunteer boys" supposed to be going over, and why?

It's mentioned, suspiciously, in the next sentence after "the, ah, body." Why are the car and body associated in this line of thinking? Collection of evidence?

Edited by David Andrews, 16 March 2012 - 07:25 PM.


#3 David Lifton

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:14 AM

Volunteer = LBJ. Whose car are "the Volunteer boys" supposed to be going over, and why?

It's mentioned, suspiciously, in the next sentence after "the, ah, body." Why are the car and body associated in this line of thinking? Collection of evidence?


About the radio transmissions made by Roy Kellerman:

Every word spoken by SS Agent Roy Kellerman is important, because (a) he was the senior agent on the Dallas trip and (b ) President Kennedy's body was in the Dallas coffin when it was placed aboard Air Force One at 2:18 PM CST, and was not in that coffin when AF-1 took off at 2:47 PM.

That fact can be stated with confidence because of the evidence of the sequence of arrivals --of body and coffin--at Bethesda Naval Hospital, as first published in BEST EVIDENCE in January, 1981. Here is that data:

(a) Air Force One arrived at Andrews at (approx) 6 P.M. EST - -this was a nationally televised event. The Dallas coffin was then offloaded and carried the few yards to a naval ambulance. Jacqueline Kennedy and Robert Kennedy and Air Force aide McHugh got into that ambulance. Driving that ambulance was Greer, Burkley was in the front seat, and so was Kellerman.

(b ) That naval ambulance pulled away from the side of AF-1 at 6:10 PM EST --again, a nationally televised event

(c ) The arrival of JFK's body at Bethesda Naval Hospital - 6:35 PM PST

This was not televised, and is something we know from various reports. The President's body was delivered to the rear of Bethesda Naval Hospital in another vehicle -- a black hearse--at 6:35 PM.

It was in a shipping casket.

Inside that black hearse were some half dozen men in plain clothes.

The arrival of the black hearse, with the shipping casket, some 20 minutes before the arrival of the naval ambulance containing Jacqueline Kennedy, RFK, and the Dallas casket, was witnessed by Dennis David, who was Chief of the Day at Bethesda. His account (first provided to me in a telephone interview in July, 1979, and then on camera in October, 1980) is published verbatim in Chapter 25 of BEST EVIDENCE.

The time of arrival is documented in the report of Marine Sergeant Robert Boyajian, the NCOIC (non-commissioned officer in charge) of the Marine security detail. This report was first unearthed by the ARRB, circa 1998.

The shipping casket was brought to the morgue, and opened. This event was witnessed by Paul O'Connor, who was inside the Bethesda morgue, and helped open the shipping casket. Inside the shipping casket was a body bag--and inside the body bag was President Kennedy's body. The cranium was empty. These facts were provided to the HSCA by O'Connor (1977 and 1978) , and are in the HSCA Outside Contact Report of O'Connor, first released in 1993 under the JFK Records Act. They were also stated in Florida newspaper interviews, circa 1978. They were provided to me in a detailed telephone interview in August, 1978, and are set forth in Chapter 26 of BEST EVIDENCE.

These facts establish that President Kennedy's body arrived in a different coffin than the one it was in when it left Dallas, and wrapped differently (not in sheets, but in a body bag)

The naval ambulance containing the Dallas coffin, Jacqueline Kennedy, and Robert Kennedy, arrived at Bethesda at 6:53-6:55 PM EST. That fact was witnessed and reported by news reporters present at Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Since the President's body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital some 20 minutes before the arrival of the Dallas casket, it is clear that the Dallas casket offloaded from Air Force One after the plane rolled to a halt at 6:04 PM EST at Andrews Air Force Base was empty.

But the Dallas coffin placed aboard the plane at 2:18 PM CST was not empty. It definitely contained President Kennedy's body. That coffin had just arrived from Parkland Hospital, and it left Parkland Hospital with the body inside.

From this data it is clear that something happened prior to take off at Love Field. Something happened, aboard Air Force One, when it was parked at Love Field--between 2:18 PM and 2:47 PM EST.

Just what was that "something"?

I addressed this matter--but don't present an eyewitness solution to the answer--in Chapter 31 of BEST EVIDENCE.

In BEST EVIDENCE, I wrote that when Air Force One rolled down the runway at Love Field, the coffin was empty.

That was true when BEST EVIDENCE was published;I stand by that statement today.

All I am saying here, in this post, is that Roy Kellerman, the Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge ("ATSAIC") was on the scene --at Love Field in Dallas, and at Andrews Air Force Base.

He had to know what happened; he had to be part of whatever happened.

And one other thing: it didn't happen by magic.

The President's body was inside the Dallas coffin when it was placed aboard Air Force One at 2:18 PM CST. The President's body was not inside that coffin when it was offloaded from Air Force One at around 6:05-6:08 PM EST at Andrews Air Force Base.

The senior government official on the plane was President Lyndon Johnson. And whatever happened to President Kennedy's body aboard AF-1 could not be done without permission, i.e., without a "green light" from higher authority.

There's little question in my mind that a fully unedited version of the Air Force One tapes would provide a definitive answer to the question of "what happened", and "who knew what happened" and "what justifications were provided for what happened."

For now--on this newly released tape--we have Roy Kellerman speaking just three words ". . ah, the body . . ." I trust that at some date in the future, a tape will be found with many more words, even sentences, and much more information.

In this context,let's recall President Kennedy's statement, quoting the Chinese proverb: "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

Someday, I am sure, we will be able to take many more steps on that journey towards the truth.

So much, then, for the Air Force One tapes. One other matter, in the spirit of a post-script:

MY INTERVIEW WITH GENERAL CHESTER CLIFTON - 7/15/1980

General Chester Clifton was the senior military aide aboard the flight. And his voice can be heard, repeatedly, on the AF-1 tapes (and in 1980, I had the "Johnson Library Version" of those tapes, first unearthed, as I recall, by JFK researcher Fred Newcomb in Los Angeles). I had studied that tape carefully, spending hours --wearing a headset--listening to every single sentence.

After the manuscript to BEST EVIDENCE has been submitted (April 1, 1980), and the publication process had begun, I arranged to interview General Chester Clifton in his office, in Washington, D.C. The date was July 15, 1980, and the interview was an "on-the-record" affair. I had the Air Force One tapes with me, and a recorder to play them on. I also had a second recorder to record our interview. Everything was above board. No hidden recorders. Everything done with full permission. Clifton knew my book would soon be published. I will have much more to say about it in a future writing.

When I interviewed Clifton (and again, this was six months prior to the appearance of BEST EVIDENCE in any bookstore) he had no idea of the evidence that I had ascertained re the sequence of arrivals of body and coffin at Bethesda. And one purpose of my interview was to push him hard on this question: Just what did he know?

I never was able to get Clifton to admit that he had direct knowledge of what happened at the back of Air Force One. For one thing, he wasn't back there. He was at the front of the plane, where the radios were located.

As I pursued the matter--very much in the manner of "Columbo" interview ("Well, sir. . I really must ask you just one more question. . " etc), and when Clifton realized how much I did know, and that I had entire chapters of my forthcoming work devoted to the sequence of arrivals of the Dallas coffin and the President's body (and that the body had arrived at Bethesda 20 minutes before the coffin), General Clifton admitted, four times, that yes, prior to takeoff in Dallas, the President's body could have been taken off Air Force One through the rear starboard door, at the back of the plane. And that he would not have known about that.

One other thing: Clifton was no dummy, and he knew the centrality of the body as evidence, and the importance of the autopsy. In a letter I have a copy of, written by relative of Clifton, in which he describes what Clifton said to him after the publication of the Warren Report, this person writes that Clifton said "Do not believe the Warren Report."

One other matter, and this is a post-script to my post-script: In 1985, I was at Hofstra College and attending their public symposium on the Kennedy presidency. Up on stage were several former JFK administration officials. Clifton was sitting in the audience, several rows in front of me. Under discussion was foreign policy and Vietnam. During the Q an A that followed the panel discussion, he stood up, much older looking now, and almost with his finger shaking, he told them: "I remember that President Kennedy said he would never send troops to Asia" (or words to that effect. Clifton was quite explicit and his remarks were delivered with considerable emotion). This entire matter is probably recorded on film--certainly, it would be on the audio of that memorable event.

DSL
3/16/12; 5 PM PDT
Los Angeles, California

Edited by David Lifton, 17 March 2012 - 05:16 AM.


#4 David Josephs

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:10 AM

Volunteer = LBJ. Whose car are "the Volunteer boys" supposed to be going over, and why?

It's mentioned, suspiciously, in the next sentence after "the, ah, body." Why are the car and body associated in this line of thinking? Collection of evidence?


That's a very good point David... why in the world would the "LBJ Boys" be going over the limo ("his car")... and are we referring to the SS agents that switched over to LBJ
or some other group of "boys"?

Digest - I'll have to call you again after the, ah, body. However, I'm sure the, ah, Volunteer boys will go over his car and so forth. We will need [garbled] and several others.



David... listen to the sentence ending with "body"... the word "body" is not spoken as the end of a sentence.... and then we need to add an "ah, however, ...."
Sounds to me like there is a bit more of that statement missing...

"after the, ah, body"... WHAT? is moved to a different casket? :blink:


"We will need (HIS) and several others"... (to go over the limo)

From a little earlier
"Yes, we are having (garbled) before we take off Jerry..." (garbled) sounds like "one, ...everyone here to have it done"
as in we are making sure no one is with the casket during the swearing in ceremony?

I know... but just cause you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out there.... :ph34r:

Cheers
DJ

DSL - in one of the Andrews photos it seems there is a vehicle and a number of people standing just to the left front of AF-1 - have you attached any meaning to this?

Posted Image

#5 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:17 AM

DSL - in one of the Andrews photos it seems there is a vehicle and a number of people standing just to the left front of AF-1 - have you attached any meaning to this?

Posted Image


I enlarged it and it looks like either 1) it was a vehicle that could fit a coffin or 2) it's a limo, probably filled with Secret Service as on Elm St. Was the body in the coffin when the Secret Service and Parkland Hospital guards were pushing it back and forth in front of Jackie and curse words and guns came out?

Kathy C

#6 David Lifton

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:25 AM

I enlarged it and it looks like either 1) it was a vehicle that could fit a coffin or 2) it's a limo, probably filled with Secret Service as on Elm St. Was the body in the coffin when the Secret Service and Parkland Hospital guards were pushing it back and forth in front of Jackie and curse words and guns came out?

Kathy C


Yes, President Kennedy's body was inside the Dallas coffin at the time of the "hallway confrontation" of which you speak at Parkland Hospital (and which was described so graphically --and for the first time, so publicly--in William Manchster's Death of a President, published in March, 1967.

The large Dallas coffin had just been rolled out of ER 1 (Parkland Hospital's "Emergency Room #1"). There, the body had been placed inside the large, and rather expensive, bronze coffin.

There is no evidence that--at ER-1, and at that time--there was any subterfuge involved; i.e., that the body was not placed in the coffin as those present state it was.

CHAIN OF POSSESSION - - A POWERFUL CONCEPT

What all this goes to show is the power of “following the body”—i.e., playing close attention to the “chain of possession.”

Specifically: indisputable documentary evidence established (as set forth in my previous post [Post #3 on this thread] that—based on the sequence of arrivals at Bethesda Naval Hospital—the naval ambulance arrived at Bethesda with an empty coffin.

The logic of the situation—as stated in BEST EVIDENCE—is simply this: an empty coffin at the Bethesda front entrance means an empty coffin on take-off from Dallas.

But the coffin was definitely not empty at 2:18 PM CST, when (at Love Field) it was placed aboard Air Force One. And therein lies a major key to the Kennedy case: something must have happened between 2:18 CST, when the coffin was placed aboard AF-1, and 2:47 PM CST, when AF-1 took off.

Just about all of this was laid out, in Chapter 31 of BEST EVIDENCE (“The When and Where Problem Reconsidered”). Here’s what I wrote, by way of conclusion:

If my analysis was correct, the President’s body was inside the Dallas casket when it was put aboard Air Force One at 2:18, but was no longer inside the casket at 2:47, as the plane rolled down the runway.

I was positive of the validity of that statement when I wrote it in 1980; I stand behind it today.

DSL
3/16/12; 9 PM PDT
Los Angeles, CA

Edited by David Lifton, 17 March 2012 - 05:10 AM.


#7 Glenn Viklund

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 06:07 PM

Hello folks,

There's a key section in the new Clifton version of the Air Force One tapes I want to draw your attention to. Doug Horne made his own transcript:

See - http://www.maryferre...do?docId=146531

This is from page 4 and 5 of Horne's transcript.

Crown - (that's the White House) 26000, ah Duplex is on, go ahead

SAM 26000 - [garbled] Stand By

Duplex - (Gerry Behn) Hello

Digest - (Roy Kellerman) Ok. Jerry?

Duplex - Hello

Digest - [garbled] in here now, ah, we're at the airport, 26000, everybody aboard.

Duplex - Okay go ahead

Digest - We're waiting for the swearing in

Duplex - That is for Volunteer, is that right

Digest - Yes, we are having [garbled] before we take off, Jerry

Duplex - That's affirmative. Do you have any idea what, ah, Lace ( Jackie) wants to do and what Volunteer wants to do on their arrival here?

Digest - No, I will call you back. Suggest --we have a 2 hour 15 minute flight into Andrews. We have a full plane of at least 40.

Duplex - Ok, go ahead

Digest - I'll have to call you again after the, ah, body. However, I'm sure the, ah, Volunteer boys will go over his car and so forth. We will need [garbled] and several others.

Duplex - All right, let me know what Volunteer wants to do when they, ah, land if they want to come into Crown by, ah, helicopter.

Digest - That's a Roger. I'll call you again.

Duplex - OK

What does Kellerman mean? What is going on with "the, ah, body?" What is this "after" the body? Officially, its already on board and in the ceremonial bronze casket. Why does Kellerman need to call Behn at the White House again about the body?

See my blog for more. - http://justiceforken...nd-ah-body.html

Joe


I interpret that a bit differently. After the Clifton tapes were released in November I noted that when AF1 left Dallas with the coffin it had not been sorted out where the autopsy was going to be conducted. If I remember correctly, somewhere other than Bethesda had been suggested, but Jackie Kennedy, during the flight, made it clear that she wanted this to be done at Bethesda as president Kennedy had been serving in the US Navy during the war.

It seems likely to me that this is what they were discussing in your transcript.

#8 Joseph Backes

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:21 PM


Hello folks,

There's a key section in the new Clifton version of the Air Force One tapes I want to draw your attention to. Doug Horne made his own transcript:

See - http://www.maryferre...do?docId=146531

This is from page 4 and 5 of Horne's transcript.

Crown - (that's the White House) 26000, ah Duplex is on, go ahead

SAM 26000 - [garbled] Stand By

Duplex - (Gerry Behn) Hello

Digest - (Roy Kellerman) Ok. Jerry?

Duplex - Hello

Digest - [garbled] in here now, ah, we're at the airport, 26000, everybody aboard.

Duplex - Okay go ahead

Digest - We're waiting for the swearing in

Duplex - That is for Volunteer, is that right

Digest - Yes, we are having [garbled] before we take off, Jerry

Duplex - That's affirmative. Do you have any idea what, ah, Lace ( Jackie) wants to do and what Volunteer wants to do on their arrival here?

Digest - No, I will call you back. Suggest --we have a 2 hour 15 minute flight into Andrews. We have a full plane of at least 40.

Duplex - Ok, go ahead

Digest - I'll have to call you again after the, ah, body. However, I'm sure the, ah, Volunteer boys will go over his car and so forth. We will need [garbled] and several others.

Duplex - All right, let me know what Volunteer wants to do when they, ah, land if they want to come into Crown by, ah, helicopter.

Digest - That's a Roger. I'll call you again.

Duplex - OK

What does Kellerman mean? What is going on with "the, ah, body?" What is this "after" the body? Officially, its already on board and in the ceremonial bronze casket. Why does Kellerman need to call Behn at the White House again about the body?

See my blog for more. - http://justiceforken...nd-ah-body.html

Joe


I interpret that a bit differently. After the Clifton tapes were released in November I noted that when AF1 left Dallas with the coffin it had not been sorted out where the autopsy was going to be conducted. If I remember correctly, somewhere other than Bethesda had been suggested, but Jackie Kennedy, during the flight, made it clear that she wanted this to be done at Bethesda as president Kennedy had been serving in the US Navy during the war.

It seems likely to me that this is what they were discussing in your transcript.


Glenn,

First of all, it's not my transcript. It's Doug's.

Second, if you only have a limited knowledge of the medical evidence in this case you will probably think there's nothing amiss here, when actually there is a great deal amiss.

The decision for the body/casket and only the body/casket to go (I'm not even getting into different caskets and arrival times at Bethesda yet) ANYWHERE WITHOUT JACKIE was never a decision of Jackie's. Somebody wanted the body/casket to go, ALONE, by helicopter somewhere. That idea and the many different ways it's expressed and by many different people was never Jackie's idea.

It is speculated that the conspirators thought they could separate Jackie from JFK at some point in Parkland Hospital. That didn't happen. If you read everything that is available in the public record you'll read where LBJ was kind of pissed off that a Catholic ceremony was performed at Parkland as JFK was given the Last Rites. This delayed things at Parkland. I don't think there was anyone who was Catholic or knew anything about the Roman Catholic faith, its ceremonies or traditions in the group of conspirators who killed JFK.

Your opinion that this is just a misunderstanding and that they eventually got it together and went to Bethesda per Jackie's request is an opinion you're being guided into believing. Harold Weisberg goes into this whole "blame the Kennedys," mentality for when and where things seem odd in his book Post-Mortem.

Third, the reason I want researchers to focus in on one conversation is because something strange is going on. JFK's body is in a bronze ceremonial casket and is already aboard AF1. When it arrives and is off loaded at Andrews its empty. JFK's body arrives at Bethesda before Jackie and the Navy ambulance get there as Lifton discovered and details in his book. I believe its Dennis David, or maybe Jerrol Custer, who is carrying X-rays and/or other autopsy photos just taken of JFK when he sees Jackie and the rest ARRIVING at Bethesda.

This cannot be, if JFK is in the ceremonial casket too and is just arriving. The conclusion is obvious. JFK's body got there another way.

Lifton theorizes that they took JFK out of the ceremonial casket at some point while it was on board AF1, probably shortly before LBJ swears himself in as the new POTUS. So, for Roy Kellerman, who is THE central figure in the movement of JFK's body, to say something as odd as he does, that he needs to call Gerry Behn back after SOMETHING happens to "the, ah, body," is damn strange. He doesn't say, "I don't know," or "As far as I know a decision hasn't been made," or anything like that.

I would recommend you do some further reading:

Post-Mortem by Harold Weisberg
Best Evidence by David Lifton
In the eye of History by William Matson Law
Inside the ARRB by Doug Horne

Joe Backes

#9 B. A. Copeland

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:28 PM

Digest - ...... I'm sure the, ah, Volunteer boys will go over his car and so forth. We will need [garbled] and several others.


This would seem to be related to the fact that the Limo was 'sanitized' but this is speculation on my part.

#10 Glenn Viklund

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:36 PM



Hello folks,

There's a key section in the new Clifton version of the Air Force One tapes I want to draw your attention to. Doug Horne made his own transcript:

See - http://www.maryferre...do?docId=146531

This is from page 4 and 5 of Horne's transcript.

Crown - (that's the White House) 26000, ah Duplex is on, go ahead

SAM 26000 - [garbled] Stand By

Duplex - (Gerry Behn) Hello

Digest - (Roy Kellerman) Ok. Jerry?

Duplex - Hello

Digest - [garbled] in here now, ah, we're at the airport, 26000, everybody aboard.

Duplex - Okay go ahead

Digest - We're waiting for the swearing in

Duplex - That is for Volunteer, is that right

Digest - Yes, we are having [garbled] before we take off, Jerry

Duplex - That's affirmative. Do you have any idea what, ah, Lace ( Jackie) wants to do and what Volunteer wants to do on their arrival here?

Digest - No, I will call you back. Suggest --we have a 2 hour 15 minute flight into Andrews. We have a full plane of at least 40.

Duplex - Ok, go ahead

Digest - I'll have to call you again after the, ah, body. However, I'm sure the, ah, Volunteer boys will go over his car and so forth. We will need [garbled] and several others.

Duplex - All right, let me know what Volunteer wants to do when they, ah, land if they want to come into Crown by, ah, helicopter.

Digest - That's a Roger. I'll call you again.

Duplex - OK

What does Kellerman mean? What is going on with "the, ah, body?" What is this "after" the body? Officially, its already on board and in the ceremonial bronze casket. Why does Kellerman need to call Behn at the White House again about the body?

See my blog for more. - http://justiceforken...nd-ah-body.html

Joe


I interpret that a bit differently. After the Clifton tapes were released in November I noted that when AF1 left Dallas with the coffin it had not been sorted out where the autopsy was going to be conducted. If I remember correctly, somewhere other than Bethesda had been suggested, but Jackie Kennedy, during the flight, made it clear that she wanted this to be done at Bethesda as president Kennedy had been serving in the US Navy during the war.

It seems likely to me that this is what they were discussing in your transcript.


Glenn,

First of all, it's not my transcript. It's Doug's.

Second, if you only have a limited knowledge of the medical evidence in this case you will probably think there's nothing amiss here, when actually there is a great deal amiss.

The decision for the body/casket and only the body/casket to go (I'm not even getting into different caskets and arrival times at Bethesda yet) ANYWHERE WITHOUT JACKIE was never a decision of Jackie's. Somebody wanted the body/casket to go, ALONE, by helicopter somewhere. That idea and the many different ways it's expressed and by many different people was never Jackie's idea.

It is speculated that the conspirators thought they could separate Jackie from JFK at some point in Parkland Hospital. That didn't happen. If you read everything that is available in the public record you'll read where LBJ was kind of pissed off that a Catholic ceremony was performed at Parkland as JFK was given the Last Rites. This delayed things at Parkland. I don't think there was anyone who was Catholic or knew anything about the Roman Catholic faith, its ceremonies or traditions in the group of conspirators who killed JFK.

Your opinion that this is just a misunderstanding and that they eventually got it together and went to Bethesda per Jackie's request is an opinion you're being guided into believing. Harold Weisberg goes into this whole "blame the Kennedys," mentality for when and where things seem odd in his book Post-Mortem.

Third, the reason I want researchers to focus in on one conversation is because something strange is going on. JFK's body is in a bronze ceremonial casket and is already aboard AF1. When it arrives and is off loaded at Andrews its empty. JFK's body arrives at Bethesda before Jackie and the Navy ambulance get there as Lifton discovered and details in his book. I believe its Dennis David, or maybe Jerrol Custer, who is carrying X-rays and/or other autopsy photos just taken of JFK when he sees Jackie and the rest ARRIVING at Bethesda.

This cannot be, if JFK is in the ceremonial casket too and is just arriving. The conclusion is obvious. JFK's body got there another way.

Lifton theorizes that they took JFK out of the ceremonial casket at some point while it was on board AF1, probably shortly before LBJ swears himself in as the new POTUS. So, for Roy Kellerman, who is THE central figure in the movement of JFK's body, to say something as odd as he does, that he needs to call Gerry Behn back after SOMETHING happens to "the, ah, body," is damn strange. He doesn't say, "I don't know," or "As far as I know a decision hasn't been made," or anything like that.

I would recommend you do some further reading:

Post-Mortem by Harold Weisberg
Best Evidence by David Lifton
In the eye of History by William Matson Law
Inside the ARRB by Doug Horne

Joe Backes


"Blame the Kennedys mentality"?
"It is your opinion that.."?
"Read these books..."?

I simply brought forward my interpretation of this conversation, that's all. Which is a reasonable one, BTW. But let's see if I can return the favor:

Basically, you disagree with what I said because you agree with David Lifton's body alteration theory.

Correct?

Edited by Glenn Viklund, 17 March 2012 - 09:37 PM.


#11 Joseph Backes

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:09 PM




Hello folks,

There's a key section in the new Clifton version of the Air Force One tapes I want to draw your attention to. Doug Horne made his own transcript:

See - http://www.maryferre...do?docId=146531

This is from page 4 and 5 of Horne's transcript.

Crown - (that's the White House) 26000, ah Duplex is on, go ahead

SAM 26000 - [garbled] Stand By

Duplex - (Gerry Behn) Hello

Digest - (Roy Kellerman) Ok. Jerry?

Duplex - Hello

Digest - [garbled] in here now, ah, we're at the airport, 26000, everybody aboard.

Duplex - Okay go ahead

Digest - We're waiting for the swearing in

Duplex - That is for Volunteer, is that right

Digest - Yes, we are having [garbled] before we take off, Jerry

Duplex - That's affirmative. Do you have any idea what, ah, Lace ( Jackie) wants to do and what Volunteer wants to do on their arrival here?

Digest - No, I will call you back. Suggest --we have a 2 hour 15 minute flight into Andrews. We have a full plane of at least 40.

Duplex - Ok, go ahead

Digest - I'll have to call you again after the, ah, body. However, I'm sure the, ah, Volunteer boys will go over his car and so forth. We will need [garbled] and several others.

Duplex - All right, let me know what Volunteer wants to do when they, ah, land if they want to come into Crown by, ah, helicopter.

Digest - That's a Roger. I'll call you again.

Duplex - OK

What does Kellerman mean? What is going on with "the, ah, body?" What is this "after" the body? Officially, its already on board and in the ceremonial bronze casket. Why does Kellerman need to call Behn at the White House again about the body?

See my blog for more. - http://justiceforken...nd-ah-body.html

Joe


I interpret that a bit differently. After the Clifton tapes were released in November I noted that when AF1 left Dallas with the coffin it had not been sorted out where the autopsy was going to be conducted. If I remember correctly, somewhere other than Bethesda had been suggested, but Jackie Kennedy, during the flight, made it clear that she wanted this to be done at Bethesda as president Kennedy had been serving in the US Navy during the war.

It seems likely to me that this is what they were discussing in your transcript.


Glenn,

First of all, it's not my transcript. It's Doug's.

Second, if you only have a limited knowledge of the medical evidence in this case you will probably think there's nothing amiss here, when actually there is a great deal amiss.

The decision for the body/casket and only the body/casket to go (I'm not even getting into different caskets and arrival times at Bethesda yet) ANYWHERE WITHOUT JACKIE was never a decision of Jackie's. Somebody wanted the body/casket to go, ALONE, by helicopter somewhere. That idea and the many different ways it's expressed and by many different people was never Jackie's idea.

It is speculated that the conspirators thought they could separate Jackie from JFK at some point in Parkland Hospital. That didn't happen. If you read everything that is available in the public record you'll read where LBJ was kind of pissed off that a Catholic ceremony was performed at Parkland as JFK was given the Last Rites. This delayed things at Parkland. I don't think there was anyone who was Catholic or knew anything about the Roman Catholic faith, its ceremonies or traditions in the group of conspirators who killed JFK.

Your opinion that this is just a misunderstanding and that they eventually got it together and went to Bethesda per Jackie's request is an opinion you're being guided into believing. Harold Weisberg goes into this whole "blame the Kennedys," mentality for when and where things seem odd in his book Post-Mortem.

Third, the reason I want researchers to focus in on one conversation is because something strange is going on. JFK's body is in a bronze ceremonial casket and is already aboard AF1. When it arrives and is off loaded at Andrews its empty. JFK's body arrives at Bethesda before Jackie and the Navy ambulance get there as Lifton discovered and details in his book. I believe its Dennis David, or maybe Jerrol Custer, who is carrying X-rays and/or other autopsy photos just taken of JFK when he sees Jackie and the rest ARRIVING at Bethesda.

This cannot be, if JFK is in the ceremonial casket too and is just arriving. The conclusion is obvious. JFK's body got there another way.

Lifton theorizes that they took JFK out of the ceremonial casket at some point while it was on board AF1, probably shortly before LBJ swears himself in as the new POTUS. So, for Roy Kellerman, who is THE central figure in the movement of JFK's body, to say something as odd as he does, that he needs to call Gerry Behn back after SOMETHING happens to "the, ah, body," is damn strange. He doesn't say, "I don't know," or "As far as I know a decision hasn't been made," or anything like that.

I would recommend you do some further reading:

Post-Mortem by Harold Weisberg
Best Evidence by David Lifton
In the eye of History by William Matson Law
Inside the ARRB by Doug Horne

Joe Backes


"Blame the Kennedys mentality"?
"It is your opinion that.."?
"Read these books..."?

I simply brought forward my interpretation of this conversation, that's all. Which is a reasonable one, BTW. But let's see if I can return the favor:

Basically, you disagree with what I said because you agree with David Lifton's body alteration theory.

Correct?


I didn't say YOU had a blame the Kennedys mentality.

When items in this case, especially in the medical evidence area, many government officials and their apologists direct people to the Kennedys for why things that appear out of the ordinary occurred. And that this is covered in depth in Harold Weisberg's book Post-Mortem.

But, I do feel your interpretation would change if you read the books I suggested.

Edited by Joseph Backes, 17 March 2012 - 10:20 PM.


#12 Bernice Moore

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

the document of the metal casket.....fti b

#13 Joseph Backes

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:20 PM

the document of the metal casket.....fti b


Thanks Bernice.

So, again, the importance of the clip from the AF1 tape seems to indicate something was going on with "the, ah, body" on AF1. That the body did not arrive in the ceremonial casket but rather arrived in a cheap metal shipping casket at Bethesda is A FACT.

Doug Horne on Black Op Radio offered a new explanation, in that they took JFK out of the ceremonial casket on AF1 while still on the ground at Love Field in case Texas authorities showed up and tried to take the body back to Parkland. They would think they have JFK because the casket weighed so much.

This was a new one to me. And it doesn't take into account what if they got on board somehow and opened the bronze ceremonial casket? Given the altercation at Parkland which nearly became a fist fight at best, with possible displays of weapons I doubt any Texas official would try and/or succeed in getting anywhere near AF1. For example, there's a report that Bill Moyers was nearly shot at when he was seen running towards AF1.

Joe

Edited by Joseph Backes, 17 March 2012 - 10:21 PM.


#14 Bernice Moore

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:59 AM

Hi Joe; Your welcome, imo also, there certainly is , was something wrong, also keep in the back of your mind the effort by some to go to Walter Reed HOSPITAL, SOME YEARS BACK SOME TRIED TO CONNECT BETHESDA AND w/r BUT NOTHING CAME UP WITHIN THE RESEARCH ..sorry caps....except there was a back road from one to the other to get there rather quickly, but that's another go around, imo David Lifton, nailed these beggars years ago and now his research has again been confirmed by Doug Horne, two OF THE GREAT RESEARCHERS imo within this continuing morass...here is A/F 1 showing where the coffin was situated on the flight back to Andrews..fyi....take care b..

#15 Joseph Backes

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:00 AM

Hi Joe; Your welcome, imo also, there certainly is , was something wrong, also keep in the back of your mind the effort by some to go to Walter Reed HOSPITAL, SOME YEARS BACK SOME TRIED TO CONNECT BETHESDA AND w/r BUT NOTHING CAME UP WITHIN THE RESEARCH ..sorry caps....except there was a back road from one to the other to get there rather quickly, but that's another go around, imo David Lifton, nailed these beggars years ago and now his research has again been confirmed by Doug Horne, two OF THE GREAT RESEARCHERS imo within this continuing morass...here is A/F 1 showing where the coffin was situated on the flight back to Andrews..fyi....take care b..


Bernice, where did you get that painting from?

Joe




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