David G. Healy Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 [...]Robin, In the case of the limo changing velocities the back ground moves by at a fairly steady state. See white object move at even intervals: [/b][/color] Edit: spelling. this very topic was discussed by David Mantik MD, Ph.D at the 2003 Univ Minn. Zapruder Film Symposium. Optical film compositing and printing can account for many discrepencies.... Clear and concise graphics Miles, thank you! David Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) Thanks Miles. Here is a Bronson GIF i made it shows cars going down Elm past the TSBD Does this show the O'neil ambulance picking up the epileptic. ?? I noticed in the film "JFK" it shows a similar scene depicting the O'neil ambulance driving passed the TSBD. The photobucket GIF may take a little while to load, the gif was made from approx 120 frames: http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/q...ri2/Bronson.gif Edited January 7, 2008 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share Posted January 7, 2008 Thanks Miles.Here is a Bronson GIF i made it shows cars going down Elm past the TSBD Does this show the O'neil ambulance picking up the epileptic. ?? I noticed in the film "JFK" it shows a similar scene depicting the O'neil ambulance driving passed the TSBD. The photobucket GIF may take a little while to load, the gif was made from approx 120 frames: http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/q...ri2/Bronson.gif Quote: Hi Robin, Yes, that scene shows the ambulance parked on the west side of Houston Street with it’s flashing red light. That’s how Earl Golz and I were able to place the time at about 12:24 when we watched the film in Bronson’s living room in 1978. There’s a blowup of that sequence (from the camera original film) with the ambulance highlighted in The Sixth Floor Museum’s current special exhibit, Filming Kennedy: Home Movies from Dallas. Gary Mack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 No, this is not correct according to Newtonian mechanics. A car moving at 5 mph can be stopped by braking almost at once because of relative weak momentum. Thus, riders would be thrown violently & suddenly forward. A car moving at higher velocities would have greater momentum & longer stopping times. Thus, riders would not be as violently & suddenly thrown forward. Robin, In the case of the limo changing velocities the back ground moves by at a fairly steady state. See white object move at even intervals: Edit: spelling. I think that you may have misinterpreted what has been inferred. Maybe if the brakes are locked up to a sudden stop, then that could happen. But watch the films and read the testimony of the occupants of the car. Greer was only slowing the car - no sudden stop. Jackie doesn't get thrown forward. Connally had just rolled up off his wife after having just been spattered with brain matter. Kellerman and Greer are hearing shots coming into the car ... possibly when the windshield was hit and the metal strip between the sun visors. Anyway, that's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 No, this is not correct according to Newtonian mechanics. A car moving at 5 mph can be stopped by braking almost at once because of relative weak momentum. Thus, riders would be thrown violently & suddenly forward. A car moving at higher velocities would have greater momentum & longer stopping times. Thus, riders would not be as violently & suddenly thrown forward. Robin, In the case of the limo changing velocities the back ground moves by at a fairly steady state. See white object move at even intervals: Edit: spelling. I think that you may have misinterpreted what has been inferred. Maybe if the brakes are locked up to a sudden stop, then that could happen. But watch the films and read the testimony of the occupants of the car. Greer was only slowing the car - no sudden stop. Jackie doesn't get thrown forward. Connally had just rolled up off his wife after having just been spattered with brain matter. Kellerman and Greer are hearing shots coming into the car ... possibly when the windshield was hit and the metal strip between the sun visors. Anyway, that's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 A couple of years ago there was a JFK documentation on German television, where they claimed, that the frames 313, 314 were interchanged in order to make JFks head slump forward, when hit in the temple. They white piece of paper? on the grass proves that. it is jumping backwards for a second, while the limo is passing by. You can see that anti- newtonian- jump, when watching the gif above. (Remember: The frames where also interchanged on the front- page of LIFE magazine when those frames where first shown to the public back in 1963.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 But watch the films and read the testimony of the occupants of the car. Greer was only slowing the car - no sudden stop. Jackie doesn't get thrown forward. You are wrong Bill...Jackie IS thrown forward, albeit a minimal distance. You just need an eagle eye like mine to spot it Duncan Duncan, The car's occupants are uniformly moving in reaction to Greer's control of the limo. When Greer turns to look back, something happens. Therefore, the limo may be changing velocities. (!) A detailed study of the background vis-a-vie the limo should establish alteration of the film, or not. As you point out a prejudice in favour of Non-Alteration is ill advised. Eagle eye prevails over the rabbit vision each time. See short interval which suggests Greer control action causing same: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Duncan,As you point out a prejudice in favour of Non-Alteration is ill advised. I didn't point out any prejudice Miles. Please do not say stuff about me that simply is not true. In all of the years I have been conversing with people on all of the forums, not one person has ever asked me my opinion on alteration of the Zapruder film, and I have never given an opinion either for or against alteration of the Zapruder film. Duncan No kidding. Are you saying, then, that you do not have an opinion? If you do, what is it? ( I think you do.) If not, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) But watch the films and read the testimony of the occupants of the car. Greer was only slowing the car - no sudden stop. Jackie doesn't get thrown forward. You are wrong Bill...Jackie IS thrown forward, albeit a minimal distance. You just need an eagle eye like mine to spot it Duncan I agree Duncan. If you watch the GIF carefully Jackie is not thrown sideways to her left. BUT, she is momentarily thrown forward towards the car door as she bends over and her left shoulder drops. She then quickly resumes her upright position again. Edited January 8, 2008 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Which version? Duncan The altered version, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Caramelli Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I seriously doubt that a car driving under 5mp can throw anyone anywhere by merely hitting the brakes. Bill No, this is not correct according to Newtonian mechanics. A car moving at 5 mph can be stopped by braking almost at once because of relative weak momentum. Thus, riders would be thrown violently & suddenly forward. A car moving at higher velocities would have greater momentum & longer stopping times. Thus, riders would not be as violently & suddenly thrown forward. Robin, In the case of the limo changing velocities the back ground moves by at a fairly steady state. See white object move at even intervals: Edit: spelling. \ Thanks Miles, for the nice graph showing the "white spot" is not moving uniformly through the backround. That's because it's a flying piece of the President's skull and not something lying on the lawn. Check my article (page seven today) linked at Marcel Dehaesleer's Copweb site. The skull fragment takes twenty two frames to clear the screen. Mary Moorman's (left) foot takes eighteen. Ike Altgens camera bag just seventeen. The skull fragment is reflected in the trunk lid of the limousine at frames 326-329. A mirror cannot reflect the wall it's hanging on and something lying on the lawn could not possibly be reflected in the trunk lid. Carry on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Caramelli Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I seriously doubt that a car driving under 5mp can throw anyone anywhere by merely hitting the brakes. Bill No, this is not correct according to Newtonian mechanics. A car moving at 5 mph can be stopped by braking almost at once because of relative weak momentum. Thus, riders would be thrown violently & suddenly forward. A car moving at higher velocities would have greater momentum & longer stopping times. Thus, riders would not be as violently & suddenly thrown forward. Robin, In the case of the limo changing velocities the back ground moves by at a fairly steady state. See white object move at even intervals: Edit: spelling. \ Thanks Miles, for the nice graph showing the "white spot" is not moving uniformly through the backround. That's because it's a flying piece of the President's skull and not something lying on the lawn. Check my article (page seven today) linked at Marcel Dehaesleer's Copweb site. The skull fragment takes twenty two frames to clear the screen. Mary Moorman's (left) foot takes eighteen. Ike Altgens camera bag just seventeen. The skull fragment is reflected in the trunk lid of the limousine at frames 326-329. A mirror cannot reflect the wall it's hanging on and something lying on the lawn could not possibly be reflected in the trunk lid. Carry on Page 1 : http://copweb.be/Frank%20Caramelli%20Jr/Fl...%20Fragment.htm Page 2 : http://www.copweb.be/Frank%20Caramelli%20J...%20Animated.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Caramelli Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Which version? Duncan The altered version, of course. In that case, I agree that all altered versions have been altered . As for the Camera original, I doubt that it has been altered. There would be too much work involved and no gaurentees that other films would not surface in the future like the Babushka film or photograph for example to uncover the alteration. Let's remember, that if Zapruder was altered, then everything else we see must have been altered too. Duncan In my opinion the best available version of Zapruder is from the film "JFK". For my eye it is the clearest and steadiest. Also the most easily viewed frame by frame because it's in a commercial DVD format. I never seen any other versions (MPI etc.) that offer anything better. It seems that we're not supposed to prefer this version; and we all have other copies; but consider this: Oliver Stone and his Hollywood crew spent more money and time in stabilizing and reprinting this film than anybody else. Page 1 : http://copweb.be/Frank%20Caramelli%20Jr/Fl...%20Fragment.htm Page 2 : http://www.copweb.be/Frank%20Caramelli%20J...%20Animated.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crane Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 (edited) I`m pretty sure that this must have been brought up & discussed before sometime on this forum but,it seems like everytime I see an image of frame 313 (give or take a few frames) there always seems to be a "black area" in the back of the Presidents head that prevents us from seeing the damage done in that area. Is there any images out there enhanced or not,that gives us a clear view of the condition that the Presidents head was in at that time? Any information or opinions is encouraged & appreciated. Edited January 9, 2008 by Michael Crane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I`m pretty sure that this must have been brought up & discussed before sometime on this forum but,it seems like everytime I see an image of frame 313 (give or take a few frames) there always seems to be a "black area" in the back of the Presidents head that prevents us from seeing the damage done in that area.Is there any images out there enhanced or not,that gives us a clear view of the condition that the Presidents head was at that time? Any information or opinions is encouraged & appreciated. ********************* Hi Michael: These are Zapruder frame, #337......the close up is from Groden's TKOAP...... B........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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