New discovery concerning CE 369: Lovelady's arrow

[Pat Speer]

More from Bill Shelley:

Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn’t real loud…Sounded like it came from the west…officers started running down to the lumber yards and Billy and I walked down that way. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end…in the side door into the shipping room…

Since Bill and Billy headed down toward the

tracks and past the grassy knoll, it cannot be

the case that, when Lee told Fritz he was "out

with Bill Shelley in front", he meant AFTER THE

SHOOTING, because Shelly was no longer there.

Lee had been there with Billy Lovelady standing

beside him. Then Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley

immediately took off toward the railroad tracks.

Oh, brother! Shelley and Lovelady didn't IMMEDIATELY take off for the railroad tracks. It's unclear how long they stayed out in front of the TSBD after the shots--it could be, by their estimate, 3-4 minutes, or more--but there's every possibility they were standing out in front of the building when Oswald came out.

Here is Shelley's testimony:

Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.

Mr. BALL - And then?

Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it.

Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?

Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.

Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?

Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.

Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?

Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.

Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Then what happened?

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

Mr. BALL - Yes.

Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.

Mr. BALL - It dead ends?

Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.

Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.

Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.

Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.

Mr. BALL - The dead-end street?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?

Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.

Mr. BALL - And Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?

MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.

Mr. BALL - Were they running?

Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

And here is Lovelady's testimony:

Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me

Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.

Mr. BALL - What is the first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?

Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.

Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Where does she work?

Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.

Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.

Mr. BALL - From the underpass area?

Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.

Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.

Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are?

Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).

Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).

Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?

Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.

Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.

Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---

Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?

Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.

Mr. BALL - That's all?

Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?

Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---

Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?

Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Mr. BALL - How many steps?

Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.

Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?

Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.

Mr. BALL - A fast walk?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.

Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Pat Speer

[Lindsay Anderson]

Lindsay, I agree that examining the actual CE 369 would be a good idea. However, I wouldn't put it past them to alter it at this late date or even replace it. Even as we speak, I'm sure there are people scrambling and scurrying, trying to decide what to do about this latest crisis. Therefore, no matter what it might show, the published CE 369 still counts; it still matters.

And the plain truth is that there are no other plausible possibillities other than it was Lovelady's arrow. You see, I, like God, do not play with dice and do not believe in coincidence. The idea that some "dirt" or a hair or a thread would just happen to lay down in that tiny spot- the very spot where Lovelady would draw it to himself were he Black Hole Man- is preposterous. And keep in mind that we have been saying for months in advance that Lovelady was Black Hole Man.

Ralph

I appreciate being on moderation may be frustrating but since I wrote that, the discussion has moved on.

I don't really think there will be anyone scurrying around to alter the original, especially as you have now found the arrow, including the tail and two arms. That would be really counter productive.

In fact, you cant loose, if the arrow is there on the actual CE 369 you win, if its not there (the whole arrow which consists of three lines, a tail and two arms) you have proof that alteration is still going on today, Jackpot!

What a great position to be in.

Why would you not examine the original now? Go for it!

Edited March 11, 2013 by Lindsay Anderson

[Robin Unger]

Lindsay, I agree that examining the actual CE 369 would be a good idea. However, I wouldn't put it past them to alter it at this late date or even replace it. Even as we speak I'm sure there are people scrambling and scurrying, trying to decide what to do about this latest crisis. Therefore, no matter what it might show, the published CE 369 still counts; it still matters.

So now Cinque is saying yes, i know i should really go to the archives and study the original.

But by the time i get there, the original will have been Altered or replaced so what is the point, i might as well just use the crappy copy i have now.

The fact is that Cinque doesnt wan't to view the original in the Archives, because he knows that the original will show that his arrow across the black hole entity is just another Cinque fantasy.

Crisis What Crisis You have nothing

SHOW ME THE ARROW

Edited March 11, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Trust Cinque to play the ALTERATION card

That way even if someone went to the Archives tomorrow, and got a copy of the "ORIGINAL" which proved he was wrong.

HE WOULD JUST SAY, SEE I TOLD YOU, THE ARCHIVES WENT INTO CRISIS MODE, AND ALTERED OR CHANGED THE ORIGINAL OVERNIGHT

Alteration is just the cowards way out, when they don't have the solid evidence to back up there theories

Edited March 11, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Jim

Please post any firm evidence you have that Lovelady was asked to wear a specific shirt when he met with the FBI.

Please post any firm evidence you have that Lovelady was aware that the FBI were going to insist on taking his photo while at that meeting.

And i am talking about official Evidence, ( Documents )

not some version passed on 3rd hand by an assassination researcher, who says that he spoke to Lovelady, and Lovelady told him this and that, ( that's not proof )

If you can't do that then your whole Lovelady red and white stripe, short sleeve shirt scenario is meaningless.

and shows that you are just clutching at straws.

You haven't answered my questions

Please post any firm evidence you have that Lovelady was asked to wear a specific shirt when he met with the FBI.

Please post any firm evidence you have that Lovelady was aware that the FBI were going to insist on taking his photo while at that meeting.

And i am talking about official Evidence, ( Documents )

not some version passed on 3rd hand by some assassination researcher, who says that he spoke to Lovelady, and Lovelady told him this and that, ( that's not proof )

There is absolutely no EVIDENCE whatsoever that shows Lovelady new prior to his meeting with the FBI Dallas office that they intended to photograph him.

and the FBI Memo you never get tired of posting will prove it.

Lovelady did not wan't to be photographed and was not expecting to be photograhed,

and so he just wore any casual short sleeved shirt.

The first paragraph of your FBI Memo states.

Billy Nolan Lovelady appeared at the Dallas FBI Office at which time he consented to be photographed.

This clearly tells us that Lovelady had no prior knowledge that he was to be photographed during the visit to the Dallas FBI office

and so he just put on a casual short sleeve shirt

at which time

This tells us that Lovelady did not know he was to be photograhed during his visit ti the FBI office

until he arrived at the FBI OFFICE and they asked him if he would mind be photographed

at which time he then consented to be photographed

In there Memo to hoover, the FBI now had to explain away the obvious difference between the two shirts.

since Lovelady had also told them that his picture had appeared in several publications, and had identified himself as the man standing on the far left side of the entrance to the TSBD wearing a different shirt

The FBI had stuffed up because not only did they neglected to tell Lovelady that he was to be photographed during that meeting.

but they also neglected to tell Lovelady to make sure that when appearing at the Dallas FBI office, he should wear the same shirt that he had been photographed in while standing in the TSBD doorway

From the FBI letter

Quote:

Lovelady stated that his picture had appeared in several publications which picture depicts him on the far left side

of the front doorway to the TSBD

The FBI now had to cover the ass since the Memo was going DIRECT to Hoover

so they said in the Memo that Lovelady had told them that the shirt he was wearing in the FBI photo session

was the same shirt that he had been wearing when standing in the TSBD Doorway.

There is not ONE OUNCE OF PROOF that Lovelady EVER told them that.

There is not ONE OUNCE OF PROOF that Lovelady was even aware of what the FBI had told Hoover, regarding the red and white striped shirt

The FBI Memo was dated 2/3/64 almost 1-week after Loveladys testimony

which according to that memo was given on the 29/2/64

Lovelady would not have seen the FBI Memo ?

He wouldn't have had a clue what the FBI had told Hoover regarding his shirt.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Stephen Roy]

Mods and others, forgive me if this is not in concert with the spirit of the rules:

Good God! We have even unearthed the original and faked

copies of the same newspaper for 11/22/63, intended to create the impression that Altgens6

was published on 11/22/63, when it didn't even come off the photo/fax until the following day.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in this forum.

[Robin Unger]

Attention Moderators

Do you condone posts made on this facebook page

Where Ralph Cinque is deliberately taking members photo's and comments from your forum

and using them on his facebook page, without our permission

Click on image:

Edited March 12, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

By the way Pat

There are also derogatory remarks about you on that Facebook Page ( regarding the identification of the black hole person as a woman )

[Lindsay Anderson]

He did the same to me - posting my image and his opinion of my post here on EF to his OIC facebook page.

That he is doing this whilst on moderation says a lot, and I also reported this,

Edited March 12, 2013 by Lindsay Anderson

[Robin Unger]

He's a nasty piece of work(RC (and co)). Like his 'research''. A waste of space.

Yes John

They seem to be under some sort of delusion that if you repeat the same posts

ad nau·se·am

/ad ˈnôzēəm/

Referring to something that has been done or repeated so often that it has become annoying or tiresome.

That it will somehow BRAINWASH us into believing there ALTERATION garbage

Edited March 12, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

He did the same to me - posting my image and his opinion of my post here on EF to his OIC facebook page.

That he is doing this whilst on moderation says a lot, and I also reported this,

Thanks Lindsay

These guys are out of control, and the Moderators need to reel them in before they sabotage the whole forum

[Lindsay Anderson]

The post about me on the facebook page may be down as I reported it to facebook but it was essentially what Ralph already posted here (emphasis added)

Lindsay, I appreciate your proffering something as an alternative to it being Lovelady's arrow. In fact, I appreciated it so much, I wrote you up on the OIC Facebook page, and I'll post it below. Hey, I'm making you famous.

Congratulations to Lindsay Anderson! Lindsay is the first contestant to come forward and proffer an alternative explanation for the black line on BH Man's forearm. Say hello to Lindsay.

http://tinypic.com/r/35i3907/6

Lindsay's idea is that the black line may be some dirt or a contaminant.

Alas Lindsay, I can't give that idea serious consideration, sorry.

To expect an idea to be taken seriously, there has to be a factual, practical, empirical basis for it. I ask the reader: How many times in your life have you seen a black line on a photograph that turned out to be dirt or a contaminant? I have been living for 62 years and have been looking at photographs for most of that time, and I have never once had that experience. Nobody I have known has ever had that experience. And I have never read or heard of any such thing happening in anybody's experience.

Furthermore, we are talking about a distinct line. How could a contaminant or a speck of dirt or dust occur in a line?

Frankly, I think you could have done better, Lindsay. I think it would have been better to suggest a hair or a piece of thread. I don't really consider those plausible either but at least they sound more plausible. At least they come in forms that can be construed as lines.

Are you aware that you don't have an unlimited right to proffer "what-ifs?" This isn't Imagination Day at Kindergarten. The plausibility of your suggestion is so low that it really deserves no consideration at all. And I do mean none.

And that is especially true considering that we already have an idea that is so much better and is, in fact, highly plausible. It makes no sense to replace a highly plausible idea with one that is entirely fanciful and implausible. Only an idea that has greater plausibility should replace the one that we have. And that highly plausible idea, of course, is that Lovelady drew the line in making his arrow.

You have to remember that he did draw it somewhere on that copy. That is not in doubt. Yet, it does not exist anywhere else on CE 369. And yes, I have checked and thoroughly. I have explored that doorway area of CE 369 under bright light and magnification, and more than once, looking for a hint of Lovelady's arrow. But, it was only when I gave up on looking around Doorman and ventured over to Black Hole Man that I finally found what I was looking for.

Notice that angle of Lovelady's line is a pretty good match to Frazier's. I bet that's because Lovelady was influenced by the angle of the arrow he saw. And he may have conformed to it subconsciously. It's very natural to do that.

http://tinypic.com/r/15887r8/6

But thank you for proffering something, Lindsay. Maybe this will get the ball rolling. Now that you have broken the ice, perhaps others will come forward with their ideas. Let's plumb this thing together. All are welcome to try. But right now, we have only one plausible idea, and that is that it is part of Lovelady's arrow which he drew upon being requested to do so by Joseph Ball. Frankly, it is going to be very hard to unseat that from the top spot, but you are welcome to try.

So the idea is:

Answer the question "what is it if not an arrow?"

but be aware I will post your pic together with my derogatory summary of your answer on the OIC facebook page

thus inviting further ridicule there.

What a way to develop an idea and engage in debate!

James - why would you even want to associate with someone like this?

Moderators - why would you want Ralph Cinque anywhere near this forum?

All this is very convenient for Ralph seeing as he backed himself into a corner when he declared he found the entire arrow and there is now nowhere else this thread can go!

[Robin Unger]

Now Cinque is starting to show his true colors.

Unlike the meek and mild fake Cinque who has been posting here for the last couple of days

and knows that he is on his last life, and if he steps out of line he faces being BANNED

Click on image:

[Lindsay Anderson]

And now he has posted Pat Speers request to remove the avatars and offered Pat a deal!

Pat I hope you won't need to think too hard about that one.

Here is the link to the OIC facebook page should you want to have a look https://www.facebook...ref=ts&filter=3

[Robin Unger]

By the way Pat

There are also derogatory remarks about you on that Facebook Page ( regarding the identification of the black hole person as a woman )

This is a new low even for Cinque

As the true nature of Cinque is revealed

Click on image

Edited March 12, 2013 by Robin Unger