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William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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James Bookhout from 1968 newspaper, found by Steve Roe

21761510.jpg

 

Denis Morisette made the connection with one of our ROKC scans, see below.

dpd-610.jpg

Pic.: Jim Murray Black Star

ROKC scan from the Richard E. Sprague Collection at the National Archives.

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Bill Simpich in State Secret explained it best about Oswald's whereabouts:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter6.html

LHO said he was "out front with Shelley,"  just like he said he was a patsy. Knowing what I know of the whole story, there's really no reason to doubt what he said. Oswald was just a worker drone like the rest of them so it's not like any of them were standing around accounting for everyone's presence or not. Their main focus was to see the parade and with LHO standing back in the shadows, we can't possibly expect 10 people to come up and say, "Yeah he was out there." When I was shooting news in Fountain Square in Cincinnati 25 years ago when Bush visited, do I remember the people who were standing in front of, next to, and behind me? Of course not.

Taking all of this into account, I believe it's Oswald and I think it has the general appearance of him in the film. To be honest, arguing whether he's holding a camera, a cup of coffee, or a box of chocolates is beside the point. We'll never really know with 100% certainty unless the TV station releases a pristine copy of the film from the negative for further analysis.

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On 9/13/2017 at 4:21 PM, Michael Walton said:

LHO said he was "out front with Shelley,"  just like he said he was a patsy.

#1 - this is Fritz claiming weeks later what Oswald said... his notes were not extemporaneous
#2 - as written, he is "out front with Shelley" after the officer with Truly stop him

59c1974796843_FritznoteaboutOswaldoutfrontwithShelley.thumb.jpg.237d03c6fa2efc3f0162a78f8125856b.jpg

 

FBI Agent Bookout offers a slightly different take on that single line scrawled by Fritz well after the fact...  Bookout is describing what he heard Oswald say... Fritz's notes were from memory much later...

59c1961b46b50_Bookoutrefutesout-front-with-shelleytime-smallerforweb.thumb.jpg.bdbaae47adedc8e31ca8fa476282e806.jpg

This is either complete FBI BS to back-up the Fritz Baker Truly story... (which I believe)
or it is accurate...  

Having proven on a great thread here - the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter could not have happened as offered as well as conflicts with Baker's same day affidavit.  Probably never happened at all...

This appears to be an attempt to move "prayerman=oswald" inside the building since it really was Oswald "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the assassination.

I should add that Shelley claims Mr. Viles was on the landing with the rest of the people:

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? 
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Except Mr. Viles tells us he was somewhere else.....  Looks to me that Shelley switches Viles for Oswald....

thoughts?

59c1995a68aa6_Vilesstatement-notonthestepswithShelley.jpg.ee92a405aab36840b1a0504d38b3e81a.jpg

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

This appears to be an attempt to move "prayerman=oswald" inside the building since it really was Oswald "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the assassination.

I agree. Although the PM footage is not clear enough to make a crystal clear ID of Oswald, the general shape of him has a lot of potential for it to be him. Another good thing is what Bart did ID'ing as many of where the employees were at the time. It'd be odd if "Joe Schmoe" from down from the bank would have walked two blocks to that shadowy area to watch the President of the US coming by. Of course stranger things have happened but I doubt it.

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10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

#1 - this is Fritz claiming weeks later what Oswald said... his notes were not extemporaneous
#2 - as written, he is "out front with Shelley" after the officer with Truly stop him

59c1974796843_FritznoteaboutOswaldoutfrontwithShelley.thumb.jpg.237d03c6fa2efc3f0162a78f8125856b.jpg

 


David,

It's possible that Fritz's notes indeed WERE written at the time of the questioning. And that the top line ("Claims 2nd Floor Coke when off came in") was written in later when it was decided that Oswald had to be getting a Coke from the machine. The Coke story was needed to explains how Baker noticed that Oswald was in the lunchroom. He could not have seen him through the window, but he could have heard the Coke machine drop the Coke. (This is how Stan Dane explained the need for the coke story, and why it kept changing.)

 

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10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

FBI Agent Bookout offers a slightly different take on that single line scrawled by Fritz well after the fact...  Bookout is describing what he heard Oswald say... Fritz's notes were from memory much later...

59c1961b46b50_Bookoutrefutesout-front-with-shelleytime-smallerforweb.thumb.jpg.bdbaae47adedc8e31ca8fa476282e806.jpg


David,

Note the broken chronology in the above account.

  • First Oswald bought the Coke and had his 2nd floor encounter with Office Baker. (Implying that the shooting had already occurred.)
  • Then Oswald went to the 1st floor and had lunch.
  • He then went outside and stood with Bill Shelley.
  • He then went home.


This of course makes no sense. But if you remove the false Coke and Officer Baker stories, we have this:

  • Oswald went to the 1st floor and had lunch.
  • He then went outside and stood with Bill Shelley.
  • He then went home.


Then the chronology works. I wonder if the Coke story is actually true. I mean, wasn't it Oswald's habit to get a Coke on the 2nd floor on the way down for lunch? (It seems like I've read that.)  If so, the story would be:

  • First Oswald bought a Coke on the second floor.
  • He then went to the 1st floor and had lunch.
  • He then went outside and stood with Bill Shelley.
  • He then went home.

And the chronology still works.

Therefore, the chronology was broken just because of the addition of the fake 2nd floor encounter. If Prayer Man is Oswald, then we know Oswald went out early enough to witness the shooting.

 

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6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


David,

It's possible that Fritz's notes indeed WERE written at the time of the questioning. And that the top line ("Claims 2nd Floor Coke when off came in") was written in later when it was decided that Oswald had to be getting a Coke from the machine. The Coke story was needed to explains how Baker noticed that Oswald was in the lunchroom. He could not have seen him through the window, but he could have heard the Coke machine drop the Coke. (This is how Stan Dane explained the need for the coke story, and why it kept changing.)

 

I'm fairly sure that has been proven false...  what amazes me is the changing of the shirt and pants which remains in the notes...
That absolutely destroys Bledsoe and McWatters and the cab driver...  since they lied... what evidence against the innocent Oswald can be trusted?

A different story is presented by the second set of

notes acquired by the ARRB. The Warren Commission

observed that during Oswald’s various interrogations,

“Captain [Will. Fritz of the homicide and robbery

bureau did most of the questioning, but he kept no

notes and there were no stenographic or tape recordings.”

5 On the other hand, it was clear that Fritz possessed

some sort of notes, for he told the Warren Commission,

while recounting the interrogations, that “...I

kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things I

have made I would have to make several days later...”.6    http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/haappanen-notes.pdf 

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