Ray Mitcham Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 55 minutes ago, John Butler said: Hi Ray, Whose this Ralph Cinque everyone seems to be wanting to tar brush me with. I've seen the name around but, have no idea what kind of work he does. Remember, I am a newbie to this kind of forum activity. I've only posted on one other site and was not well received. Oh, just like here with your ad hominem attacks. Cinque was a guy, who like you, thought that Altgens 6 was altered. He was shown to be totally wrong. People who misread photos have been tarred with the same brush. Edited January 20, 2017 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 8 hours ago, John Butler said: Alastair, the first two guys you show are two black guys in z frame 229. The woman in blue is behind Charles brehm in what you refer to as z frame 285. Thanks for the clarification, I did think that was who you were meaning... So, We have established that when you say 'Woman in Blue' that the person you mean is the one visible in Zapruder 285 above, standing behind the Brehms... as we know from other films/photos the person standing behind the Brehms is known as the Babushka Lady, as shown below... Is your point that it must be two different people because from the front she looks 'blue' and that doesn't match the look of her coat from the back? Is that what you are meaning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 39 minutes ago, John Butler said: Hi Ray, Whose this Ralph Cinque everyone seems to be wanting to tar brush me with. I've seen the name around but, have no idea what kind of work he does. Remember, I am a newbie to this kind of forum activity. I've only posted on one other site and was not well received. Oh, just like here with your ad hominem attacks. Can I just ask, when you say a 'newbie', how new do you mean? And when you say you have only posted on one other site, do you really mean only on one other site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, John Butler said: Hi Ray, Whose this Ralph Cinque everyone seems to be wanting to tar brush me with. I've seen the name around but, have no idea what kind of work he does. Remember, I am a newbie to this kind of forum activity. I've only posted on one other site and was not well received. Oh, just like here with your ad hominem attacks. Your responses tend to make the reader think that you were not able to understand the information found in Altgens #6 photo so to know he was not in the same spot then as he was later when seen in Zapruder's film. Altgens is obviously standing in the street in Altgen's 6 as the curb is to his right. And we know he is in fact standing because his camera can see over the hood of the approaching limo. So the photo tells us that Ike stepped into the street to take a picture of the slow moving limo approaching his position. He then stepped back out of the street before Zapruder panned far enough to capture Ike in his film frame. For him to not step back would have him in the path of the cycle riding closest to the curb. The location of the limo is easy to determine if you know how to do it. Get an actual overhead aerial view of Elm Street and count the white lane stripes from the corner (5 in total is what I think you want) ... as it looks as though the limo's tire is about 1/4 of the way over the fifth stripe. Use the overhead aerial view and place a line from a point at the middle of the photo that passes over a reference point on the car and beyond - then trace it back to the south knoll on the aerial photo and it will tell you where Ike took his photo in relation to the south pasture. The same can be done with a Zframe. I used Z428. Draw a line over JFK to a point on the wall beyond him. The limo was said to be averaging around 11 inches a frame, so count from 248 to 255 which is 7 frames ... and multiply that by 11" to know how much further the car rolled from 248 to 255. If you do the same with 255 by finding a reference point in the background and draw a line from there back to Zapruder's pedestal on an aerial photo of that area - that would be even easier. At least you can determine where the car was on the street at Z255. Edited January 20, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Z frame 287 is somewhat clearer. The Woman in Blue appears to have on a blue dress and a black head ban. The Babushka Lady is dressed in a head scarf, purse, and tan rain coat. They are not the same people by appearance. The Woman in Blue is in the Zapruder film and no where else. The Babushka Lady is not in Zapruder. She can be found in other photos and films. Some people say they are the same person. It's a curiosity. One that others have spoke of long ago. Jack White comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) Bill, I actually did what you are saying some time ago about the lines on the highway. I thought it was a fairly weak argument. The white lines are 10 ft (3 meters) and the distance between is 30 ft (9 meters). So the distance from the intersection (turn off Houston St.) is about 150 to 200 ft. The four car caravan seen in Altgens 6 at this point would be about 160 ft. or 4 stripes. The TSBD is 100 ft wide and 100 feet long. The presidential limousine is just past the TSBD and not to the R L Thornton Freeway sign. The confusion comes from the image of Mr. and Mrs. Kennedy in the limo. Jackie has her hand on John's arm. This is very similar or the same as the scene in Z frame 255. Many people say this is at the same time. One (Altgens 6) proves the others (Zapruder) validity. Edited January 20, 2017 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Butler said: Z frame 287 is somewhat clearer. The Woman in Blue appears to have on a blue dress and a black head ban. The Babushka Lady is dressed in a head scarf, purse, and tan rain coat. They are not the same people by appearance. The Woman in Blue is in the Zapruder film and no where else. The Babushka Lady is not in Zapruder. She can be found in other photos and films. Some people say they are the same person. It's a curiosity. One that others have spoke of long ago. Jack White comes to mind. After Jack was attacked in his home - he said lots of things that were odd when it come to photo interpretations. Jack said Moorman was standing in the street when she took her famous Polaroid - that Zapruder and Sitzman were waltzing on the pedestal in the Bronson slide - and that Toni Foster was 7ft tall .... just to name a few. His claims were debunked to death. The Moorman in the street nonsense was easy to debunk by first knowing the standing height of a DPD motorcycle (58") and applying that against the background of the knoll. I took two 58" tall stands and placed them in the same lane of traffic the cycles are seen riding in and photographed them from 54.5" off the street and again from 54.5" above the curb. The result told the true story. View of 58: stands in the street as photographed from 54.5" off the curb and again from 54.5" atop of the curb to see how the backgrounds line up to the heigth of the bikes windscreens ... A photo 54" off the street would not allow Moorman to see over the tops of the windscreens, but from atop of the curb she could see over them and when her Polariod and my test photos were overlaid - they were a match beyond question. Jack White and Jim Fetzer made numerous trips to the Plaza and couldn't get it right. Of Course they never bothered to find out the standing height of a DPD motorcycle either. The woman in blue is seen with her coat open, thus her blue colored dress is visible in Zapruder's film. She is still wearing a head scarf. From behind - her dress is not visible and we only see her coat and head scarf. As I recall - there was one or two aftermath photos showing her on the knoll side of the street. Jack knew Bev Oliver and believed her story as I did. However, Jack never cared to ask Bev if that was her in Zapruder's film showing a blue dress under her tan overcoat. Bev will tell you it is her. I also want to say that the reflections you see in the limo that seem warped to you is because the side of the car is bowed outward which distorts the reflection. All these things can be tested just they were done when Jack White made his claims. Those reflections being seen from a skewed angle also adds to the distortion. Stand in front of a chrome bumper and see how you and everything behind you looks - then you will know what I am talking about. Edited January 20, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, John Butler said: Z frame 287 is somewhat clearer. The Woman in Blue appears to have on a blue dress and a black head ban. The Babushka Lady is dressed in a head scarf, purse, and tan rain coat. They are not the same people by appearance. The Woman in Blue is in the Zapruder film and no where else. The Babushka Lady is not in Zapruder. She can be found in other photos and films. Some people say they are the same person. It's a curiosity. One that others have spoke of long ago. Jack White comes to mind. "They are not the same people by appearance" - ok, I know what you mean. Thing is John, if you hear hooves think horse, not unicorn. Could there be another explanation for the difference in 'appearance'? Afterall we only see the 'blue' from the front in the Zapruder film and the 'tan' from behind... as I type this Bill has just responded and it includes an explanation... 4 minutes ago, Bill Miller said: The woman in blue is seen with her coat open, thus her blue colored dress is visible in Zapruder's film. She is still wearing a head scarf. From behind - her dress is not visible and we only see her coat and head scarf. As I recall - there was one or two aftermath photos showing her on the knoll side of the street. Jack knew Bev Oliver and believed her story as I did. However, Jack never cared to ask Bev if that was her in Zapruder's film showing a blue dress under her tan overcoat. Bev will tell you it is her. Sounds reasonable to me. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 And the craziness on this post just keeps right on going. Jesus. Bill Miller - I've been reading your posts here and you've been doing a good job. Then you said the Babushka lady was Bev Oliver. Bawahaha! No xxxxing way that is Bev Oliver. Do the research and you'll find she's just a hanger on in this case like the other wack job ----- (sorry can't even remember her name but it's the woman who wrote she knew LHO in NO). If you continue to believe it's Oliver, then my respect for your analysis on this thread will definitely drop a notch or three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 To be fair, Bill said that he 'did' believe her story - I presume he doesn't anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Walton said: Bill Miller - I've been reading your posts here and you've been doing a good job. Thanks - the photographic record has always been my main interest. Then you said the Babushka lady was Bev Oliver. Bawahaha! No xxxxing way that is Bev Oliver. Do the research and you'll find she's just a hanger on in this case like the other wack job ----- (sorry can't even remember her name but it's the woman who wrote she knew LHO in NO). I have not found Beverly to be wacky at all. I could just say that because the HSCA knew about Beverly and didn't bother to call her is all the proof I need to believe she was there, but that would be wrong of me. I know that her and Charles Brehm became friends since the assassination and he was convinced she was the woman who stood with him after the shooting. They remained close friends over the years because of this. I also know that Beverly took her mother back down to the Plaza on the the day of the shooting and took pictures of her there. Groden has seen them and had told me about them. These were personal to Bev and have never been published, so hardly anyone would know about them but people she cared to share them with. I will ask to see them when I am in Dallas again. Both Robert and Jack claimed that they had seen the shoes she wore that day as well - one of them scuffed against the yellow paint along the curb when she stepped off it. I remember reading once that the yellow stripes around Dallas had been painted just prior to the President's arrival. Those curb markers let drivers know there was a bend in the road coming .... guess they didn't want JFK's driver to have a mishap and miss a bend in the road. That would have been embarrassing to our beloved President. If you continue to believe it's Oliver, then my respect for your analysis on this thread will definitely drop a notch or three. I wonder if the woman you are thinking of was Judith Baker. That woman wrote a book called 'Lee and me' if I remember correctly. She did seem like a kook!!! Bev's connection to knowing Oswald was Ruby introducing Lee to her at his club. I do believe Ruby knew Beverly and Oswald. But either way I am in disagreement with your notion that the value of a person's ability to rationally address simple angles and cross referencing reference points relies on them agreeing with your assessment of an assassination witness. It tells me that when I say 12" = 1foot - or that 3' = 1yard that someone like yourself would cast doubt on those conclusions because they disagreed with me on the character of Beverly Oliver. None of which has anything to do with the points I have made about the things John said. If that is the case, then I we will have to agree to disagree. Edited January 21, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) The invisible tan raincoat? Is that related to an invisible rabbit named Harvey? Edited January 21, 2017 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Yes, Bill, thanks. Judith is a fake. Bev is too. Google and find the story about her so-called big reveal years ago - she was going to reveal never seen photos but it was all a ruse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 Thing is John, if you hear hooves think horse, not unicorn Well, what about deer, cows, zebras, and other animals? We want to keep an open mind on the "hooves" issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 The explanations here are becoming loopier and loopier. Here's one in that vein. The Woman in Blue knew Abraham Zapruder would be filming. Being innovative an wanting to set a new style she sewed the front of her blue dress to the back of her tan rain coat so that Abe would notice. That way they could market a new concept and makes lots of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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