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Glenn Nall

CE399 and its connections to...

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was CE399 definitively connected to either JFK or John Connally via tissue, or by any other means?

Edited by Glenn Nall
removed extra content because I think it was too much for people to handle in their interest in answering the question. I made it simpler for them. ;)

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12 hours ago, Glenn Nall said:

was CE399 definitively connected to either JFK or John Connally via tissue, or by any other means?

No.  In addition, CE399 really has no provenance, so we don't know where it actually came from.

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1 hour ago, Pamela Brown said:

No.  In addition, CE399 really has no provenance, so we don't know where it actually came from.

thank you, Pamela - 

I was pretty sure it didn't physically trace to Connally or Kennedy; I was answering a question in Quora (there are oceans of JFK questions in Quora since the recent files release)... wanted to be sure.

and to be clear, CE399 DID ballistically trace to the MC rifle (which doesn't amount to a hill of beans, of course...), right? just not its "post-muzzle" :) history...? 

 

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Knowing nothing about forensics I too have wondered whether a bullet that has passed through two human bodies and inflicting significant injuries wouldn't have had at least "some" traces of blood and/or tissue on it's surface after being found within the time frame stated regards the discovery of CE399?

Do fired rifle bullets come out of flesh and blood bodies clean like CE399?

One might suppose that they do or that certain post hit - physical contact factors could possibly clean such traces away such as the expended bullet going through thick cotton, sandy soil, water, etc.

Perhaps the physical handling of a bullet like CE399 after it's discovery could also do this? 

Was the person credited with CE399's first discovery at Parkland ever asked whether they noticed any blood on the bullet when they first picked it up? Or did they say that the bullet they found looked exactly as it appeared in later photo's shown to them?

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Glenn:

Mr. EISENBERG - The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you received it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a small quantity of metal for analysis.
Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way.
Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet.

The match was only the grooves of 399 matching the barrel of the MC....  At some point the rifle was fired into a substance like cotton or water...  Since it appears to me that the DAY rifle out from the TSBD is not CE139, who knows when the switches were made?

(Side note on rifles: Over the Labor Day weekend while Oswald and family are in New Orleans with the Murrets (Lee’s mother’s sister and husband), two men arrived at the door of one Robert McKeown, a self confessed arms dealer who worked in similar circles as Jack Ruby, had supplied arms for Castro’s cause and was a close friend of Castro himself.  McKeown was on probation at the time. Lee Oswald announces to McKeown that he has finally found him and would like to buy 4 rifles for $10,000.  Lee Oswald was traveling with a man named Hernandez. [H&L])

This compares the rifle in evidence with the huge photo of DAY and the rifle...  we don't even see faint outlines of the markings on the TSBD rifle....

There was well more than 1 C2766 and if we remember, Riva's job was to grind off the serial numbers...

 

What amazes me is despite Frazier being the ballistics expert you'd think the FBI would be interested in any debris on that bullet to match fibers, match skin or blood...
There was nothing on the bullet cause the bullet was never in Dallas....  Chief Rowley produces it and gives it to Elmer Todd...  who according to the evidence gives it to Frazier over an hour after Frazier had already received it...

CE399 is part of the Secret Services role...  dropping protection, taking the body, arranging the morgue, Ambulance wild chases... Kellerman front and center.

We also have that FBI memo mentioning a bullet behind JFK's ear in addition to CE399...  (see below)...

 

fig6.jpg

Edited by David Josephs

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49 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. FRAZIER - Not any [blood or similar material] which would interfere with the examination,...

wow. "which would interfere with...," as opposed to "which would assist us with...".

absolutely hilarious in either its commentary on the primitive state of criminal procedure in the early sixties and/or the apparent primitive state of Frazier's mind.

thanks for this. very illuminating, in particular the engravings and the lack of same... hmmm

I've glanced at those images before, and past them by. looking at them more closely, there seems to be a problem. yet another one.

Edited by Glenn Nall

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https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRifle.pdf

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf

The articles behind the posts....  According to the evidence, the Money Order was found 4 separate times on Saturday.... in 4 different places.

and the pistol wasn't the one they took from Oswald either....  Westbrook helped with that...

Hope you enjoy them..

DJ

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43 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Glenn:

Mr. EISENBERG - The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you received it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a small quantity of metal for analysis.
Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way.
Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet.

The match was only the grooves of 399 matching the barrel of the MC....  At some point the rifle was fired into a substance like cotton or water...  Since it appears to me that the DAY rifle out from the TSBD is not CE139, who knows when the switches were made?

(Side note on rifles: Over the Labor Day weekend while Oswald and family are in New Orleans with the Murrets (Lee’s mother’s sister and husband), two men arrived at the door of one Robert McKeown, a self confessed arms dealer who worked in similar circles as Jack Ruby, had supplied arms for Castro’s cause and was a close friend of Castro himself.  McKeown was on probation at the time. Lee Oswald announces to McKeown that he has finally found him and would like to buy 4 rifles for $10,000.  Lee Oswald was traveling with a man named Hernandez. [H&L])

This compares the rifle in evidence with the huge photo of DAY and the rifle...  we don't even see faint outlines of the markings on the TSBD rifle....

There was well more than 1 C2766 and if we remember, Riva's job was to grind off the serial numbers...

59037724269d7_Allen-DayandrifleVERYlargeandclear-noMAUSERorMCmarkingsv3-croppednumbered.thumb.jpg.e50493618f2cbdafbc0562597bf1e7aa.jpg

What amazes me is despite Frazier being the ballistics expert you'd think the FBI would be interested in any debris on that bullet to match fibers, match skin or blood...
There was nothing on the bullet cause the bullet was never in Dallas....  Chief Rowley produces it and gives it to Elmer Todd...  who according to the evidence gives it to Frazier over an hour after Frazier had already received it...

CE399 is part of the Secret Services role...  dropping protection, taking the body, arranging the morgue, Ambulance wild chases... Kellerman front and center.

We also have that FBI memo mentioning a bullet behind JFK's ear in addition to CE399...  (see below)...

but, wait, there's more.

man, that's not even the same scope on the rifle(s)... is it? no way. the throat with the lens is much longer in one pic than the other...

"dropping protection, taking the body, arranging the morgue, Ambulance wild chases... Kellerman front and center."

right, ONCE they stole the body from Texas...

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2 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

  According to the evidence, the Money Order was found 4 separate times on Saturday.... in 4 different places.

DJ

I read an account of how O was supposedly able to walk several miles to purchase that money order or the PO box during his lunch break on the day it/they were purchased, or something to that effect. Don't remember where I read that, but I want to refer to it on something. Do you recognize this narrative and remember where it's printed?

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Just now, Glenn Nall said:

I read an account of how O was supposedly able to walk several miles to purchase that money order or the PO box during his lunch break on the day it/they were purchased, or something to that effect. Don't remember where I read that, but I want to refer to it on something. Do you recognize this narrative and remember where it's printed?

lol... of course, I wrote/illustrated it with some source help from Armstrong.

59fc8ee87a327_BuyingandmailingthePostalmoneyorder.thumb.jpg.b5e5bacedddd604133530bcd2d9542f9.jpg

The entire article is linked to in a previous post of mine...

He bought the money order AT THE MAIN DALLAS POST OFFICE...

why would he need to place it in a mailbox in a different section

Here is the G-eneral P-ost O-ffice stamp on the Money Order next to the zone 12 stamp

59fc8fa031f06_Kleinsenvelopepostmarkzone121030amandthePMOstamp.thumb.jpg.c5e6441ee9111836f575d1f6076aedc7.jpg

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John Orr (former DOJ prosecutor) will be discussing his research and discovery of organic material resembling muscle cells on the nose fragment discovered in the limo at the mock trial in two weeks. His findings were covered in the 2013 Fox Special on the 50th anniversary. he will also discuss the computer animation that pointed to  gunman on the roof of the Records Building.....

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some former postal workers have suggested the franking mark does not represent where the envelope containing the PO was deposited but represents the machine in the GPO that marked the envelope. we are trying to get to the bottom of this for the mock trial...........

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Pamela- a researcher told me earlier this year that there was bullet damage to the ashtray behind the limo driver's seat. are you aware of any such damage? 

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41 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

some former postal workers have suggested the franking mark does not represent where the envelope containing the PO was deposited but represents the machine in the GPO that marked the envelope. we are trying to get to the bottom of this for the mock trial...........

Then it's simply a coincidence that the GPO is zone 1 and the postmark includes one of the established zone numbers?

I've heard the arguments related to the different machines and what type of marks are placed on the envelopes...

The map below shows that zone 12 touches the corner of W. Commerce and N. Beckley...

The corner of N. Beckley and W. Commerce is where the Beckley bus turns south...  and continues right past the bus stop in front of Oswald's rooming house.

Most feel Oswald got on the Marsalis bus but McWatters and Roy Milton both negate the thought that Oswald was on THAT bus... yet his "interrogation" yielded notes that said he took a bus all the way either home or to the Texas Theater... 

That would have been the N. Beckley bus which followed behind McWatters' bus right away.  Nobody every checked any other buses.

This may come in handy: https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf  which is a timeline I compiled from the research I did in this paper: https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf  

At the very least you must have a problem contrasting what Harry Holmes told us to what happened with Harold Marks and the Secret Service in Virgina... not to mention their finding it in Kansas as well.   Holmes' account of the money order is a sham and a poor one at that.

They found a PMO book with the stub with the correct amount and traced it to Oswald....   Q1 Mr. Prosecutor

Where's the book of PMO's?  the original should have looked like this with the PO stub remaining.

I thought you said the FBI said $21.95?
Mr. HOLMES. He had, and that was the amount of money order I had been looking for. So I had my postal inspector in charge call our Chicago office and suggested that he get an inspector out to Klein's Sporting Goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order.
Mr. BELIN. So what happened?
Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $21.95---$21.45 excuse me, and that the shipping---they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20.
So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one.
I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within 10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963.

59a72fcd2e151_LHOMoneyorderincolorwithsignaturecomparisonsandwhatthestublookslike.thumb.jpg.d45c09e17e637fd224b80c654cfbfcad.jpg

63-23.thumb.jpg.3993fc1393eef2b119003843e4861499.jpg

 

 

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13 hours ago, Glenn Nall said:

thank you, Pamela - 

I was pretty sure it didn't physically trace to Connally or Kennedy; I was answering a question in Quora (there are oceans of JFK questions in Quora since the recent files release)... wanted to be sure.

and to be clear, CE399 DID ballistically trace to the MC rifle (which doesn't amount to a hill of beans, of course...), right? just not its "post-muzzle" :) history...? 

 

Yes, it did come from the MC.  What a nice 'coincidence'!

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