How is it possible Oswald met with David Phillips in Dallas given that he was in New Orleans at the time?

[Sandy Larsen]

A lot of researchers accept that Antonio Veciana saw Oswald talking with Maurice Bishop (David Atlee Phillips) in Dallas. I just read some accounts of that saying this occurred in late August to Early September 1963.

Wasn't Oswald known to be in New Orleans at that time? (Marina left New Orleans on September 23rd, and Oswald is said to have followed.)

John Armstrong says it was LEE Oswald who met with Marice Bishop in Dallas. So this isn't a problem for him. But what do non-H&L researchers believe?

 

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

It's all a moot point because the late August-September timeframe was invented by Fonzi. If you don't believe me, go back and read Fonzi's original interview notes on which he based his theory. This is all explained here:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/04/gaeton-fonzi-and-veciana-allegations.html

But to answer your question, LHO couldn't have met with anyone in Dallas (barring a plane flight that there is no evidence for) since he was indeed in New Orleans.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

It's all a moot point because the late August-September timeframe was invented by Fonzi. If you don't believe me, go back and read Fonzi's original interview notes on which he based his theory. This is all explained here:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/04/gaeton-fonzi-and-veciana-allegations.html

But to answer your question, LHO couldn't have met with anyone in Dallas (barring a plane flight that there is no evidence for) since he was indeed in New Orleans.

Tracy,

I respectfully disagree with the implications of your article, although I do agree with your careful scholarship of the issues, and even with your modest conclusion.

The key implication, however, is that Antonio Veciana could not have seen Lee Harvey Oswald in the company of Maurice Bishop in Dallas at any time between the final week of August and the first week of September, 1963.

If (and only if) I have read your article correctly, then I believe such an implication is an overstatement, based upon your findings in that article.

Despite the other (minor) issues that you highlighted in the relationship between Bishop, Veciana, Oswald -- and Fonzi's relationship with Veciana -- you did not fully discount the possibility that Veciana saw Oswald in the company of Bishop in Dallas during that time period.

My first material evidence is the historical fact that Lee Harvey Oswald worked only six weeks for the Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans (from 5/9/1963 to 7/19/1963), and he declined to inform Marina Oswald of this fact, and he continued to leave before 8am every morning, and return home around 5pm every afternoon.

This gave the illusion to Marina Oswald that Lee Harvey Oswald was still working full-time at Reily.   She didn't suspect anything else -- and Oswald always had pin money.   MARINA HAS NO EXPLANATION ABOUT WHAT LEE HARVEY OSWALD DID WITH ALL THAT SPARE TIME.

Insofar as Lee Harvey Oswald had ACCOMPLICES in New Orleans during the summer of 1963, we have a very real possibility of TRANSPORTATION for Oswald, and eight hours of free time daily between 7/20/1963 and 9/9/1963.   Such transportation could include aircraft (including amateur pilot aircraft) to and from New Orleans to Dallas -- which would make an important business trip entirely plausible in the time-frames involved.

My second material evidence is the historical fact of a novel manuscript written by David Atlee Phillips, entitled, The AMLASH Legacy (1988) in which he "confesses" that he helped to groom Lee Harvey Oswald in a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro during the summer of 1963, including a Fake FPCC in New Orleans, and an attempt to obtain a Cuban Visa at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City during the final week of September, 1963.

It is well known that Antonio Veciana had one burning goal in life -- and that was to assassinate Fidel Castro.  So, the political scenario also makes sense.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited December 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo
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[W. Tracy Parnell]

Paul,

Thanks for your thoughts. My main goal with the article was to convey the fact that the late August-early September timeline promoted by Fonzi for years is not supported by the Veciana interviews. Of course, I can not rule out that Oswald was somehow transported to Dallas and back to New Orleans by some unknown helper. I just find the evidence for that very weak. As for Phillips' novel-it was a work of fiction and I don't see him using it to convey any hidden truths. As for Veciana, I'm not sure he was that interested in killing Castro. If he was, he failed miserably. He may have been more interested in the "killing Casto business" which seems to have paid very well indeed. But that is just a pet theory of mine and I have no proof at this time and in fact it could probably never be proven.

[Terry Adams]

Mr. Parnell, I agree with the terminology, "killing Castro business."  I am sure that a tremendous amount of money was spent by the U. S. Government and others to "kill" Castro.  The fact that he was not assassinated shows that he may well have been a story from a bad novel.  If I am correct, I think  that Castro himself claimed that over 100 attempts had been made on his life.  It was just great politics on all sides to keep him alive.  I'm sure that the little people involved were trying their best to get the job done, when all the time, there were actions, over their heads, that kept anything "real" from happening.  I am sure that many, many people (powers that be) got rich in the "killing Castro business."  This is somewhat off course, but if that had really been an effort to allow someone such as Veciana and his people to have removed Castro, the tragic events of Nov. 22, 1963 may have been averted.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Terry Adams
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[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Terry Adams said:

Mr. Parnell, I agree with the terminology, "killing Castro business."  I am sure that a tremendous amount of money was spent by the U. S. Government and others to "kill" Castro.  The fact that he was not assassinated shows that he may well have been a story from a bad novel.  If I am correct, I think  that Castro himself claimed that over 100 attempts had been made on his life.  It was just great politics on all sides to keep him alive.  I'm sure that the little people involved were trying their best to get the job done, when all the time, there were actions, over their heads, that kept anything "real" from happening.  I am sure that many, many people (powers that be) got rich in the "killing Castro business."  This is somewhat off course, but if that had really been an effort to allow someone such as Veciana and his people to have removed Castro, the tragic events of Nov. 22, 1963 may have been averted.

Tracy and Terry,

Jason Ward has been using computer methods to study to latest releases of FBI and CIA data pursuant to the JFK Records Act of 10/26/2017.   His conclusion is much the same as yours, with regard to the "killing Castro business."

Many or perhaps most of the CIA releases involve Cuban Exiles (many of whom were living in the past half-century, and so required "redaction" of their names) who were named in connection with some new plot to assassinate Fidel Castro.

The fact that the US spent millions of dollars to hundreds of individuals and groups from 1960-1963 in his futile passion, suggests to Jason Ward that most of these Cuban Exiles were only in it for the money -- putting on a good show -- but even if Fidel Castro had been killed, most would have preferred to remain in Miami anyway!   It was a sort of "welfare" for Cuban Exiles -- and perhaps the only job that many of them could obtain in Miami or New Orleans.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 12/4/2017 at 2:08 PM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Paul,

Thanks for your thoughts. My main goal with the article was to convey the fact that the late August-early September timeline promoted by Fonzi for years is not supported by the Veciana interviews. Of course, I can not rule out that Oswald was somehow transported to Dallas and back to New Orleans by some unknown helper. I just find the evidence for that very weak. As for Phillips' novel-it was a work of fiction and I don't see him using it to convey any hidden truths. As for Veciana, I'm not sure he was that interested in killing Castro. If he was, he failed miserably. He may have been more interested in the "killing Casto business" which seems to have paid very well indeed. But that is just a pet theory of mine and I have no proof at this time and in fact it could probably never be proven.

Tracy,

Thanks for the polite discourse.   The following is my opinion:

I think your article successfully made the point that the CT which Fonzi promoted was immaterial to the Veciana interviews.  I, for one, wish to give Antonio Veciana the benefit of the doubt -- that he truly and sincerely tried to whack Fidel Castro as he said.  We have plenty of material evidence that his group, Alpha 66, was feared and fearsome.

Although historians know that JFK put a stop to all US-sponsored Cuba Raid activities after the Cuban Missile Crisis -- many historians also admit that JFK and RFK privately ordered and managed "Operation Mongoose," and that this secret operation had links to 544 Camp Street in New Orleans.  This secret group had orders from the White House to assassinate Fidel Castro -- even though the FBI had shut down all other Cuba Raid groups.  (cf. Lamar Waldron, Ultimate Sacrifice, 2005)

David Atlee Phillips was indeed managing Alpha 66 through the CIA with one goal: to assassinate Fidel Castro.  Antonio Veciana was certainly its leader.  

It is for this reason that I am willing to give Phillip's 1988 work of fiction (The AMLASH Legacy) some leeway here.   I choose to see Phillips making a life-long confession -- before he died (1988).   It's the story of a CIA agent and his adventures, including one with Lee Harvey Oswald in a plot to kill Fidel Castro from bases in New Orleans and Mexico City.  The presence of a factual scenario there is a glaring hint, begging for attention, in my humble opinion.

I agree that most Cuba Raid groups were merely profiting from the millions of dollars that the CIA wastefully threw at the "Kill Fidel" passion.  The closest anybody came was Frank Sturgis, sponsoring Marita Lorenz and her "poison pill."   But her heart was not in it.  She was no Mata Hari.

Antonio Veciana was likely involved in other plots involving secret Havana conspirators to kill Fidel -- but some of those conspirators may still be living -- and they could never talk -- even today.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited December 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo
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[Jeffrey Reilley]

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/124-10280-10004.pdf

 

Mr. Veciana was getting around in the summer of 63. August 24th in Orlando meeting with Frank Sturgis. A week or two later meeting with DAP in Dallas and seeing Oswald. 

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 1:52 PM, Jeffrey Reilley said:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/124-10280-10004.pdf

Mr. Veciana was getting around in the summer of 63. August 24th in Orlando meeting with Frank Sturgis. A week or two later meeting with DAP in Dallas and seeing Oswald. 

Jeffrey,

Yes, the politics of the day -- and the personnel at 544 Camp Street where Lee Harvey Oswald was hanging out (cf. Jim Garrison) -- makes the sighting of Oswald with DAP a near-certainty, in my humble opinion.

Yet we must try to remember -- contrary to the CIA-did-it CTers -- that Antonio Veciana was interested only in the assassination of Fidel Castro.  Solely and only. 

Also, according to DAP himself in his novel, The AMLASH Legacy (1988), written the year he died, his connection with Lee Harvey Oswald, the New Orleans FPCC and the Mexico City trip to get a Visa to Cuba -- all this was also pursued in the context of a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro.

Not JFK, but Fidel Castro.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jeffrey Reilley]

Mr. Trejo,

   I agree that Veciana was solely after Fidel. I don't believe you would find many that disagree with that. I have not read much that suggests a finger should be pointed towards him in relation to JFK's murder. 

  However, if DAP, Veciana, and LHO were all on board this train of "let's go get Fidel", how exactly would the Dallas right-wingers be privy to the sensitive operation that was taking place? I mean, Veciana was with Frank Sturgis within two weeks of seeing DAP with LHO, which to me seems like a lot of big hitters in this saga going after the same goal: killing Fidel, not JFK. Who then would have the ability to set them all up, to the point that they would bury their own guy(Oswald) to save their own face?  Although I make it a point to never underestimate my enemies, I find it hard to believe that ex-general Walker and the people of his ilk had that ability. 

  In DAP's novel, didn't he have it so Oswald took the plan for taking out Fidel and use it for killing JFK? Although a work of fiction, in the real world would there not be people above DAP that would have been in the proverbial loop as to what those plans were? Would they not have the means, motive, and opportunity to hijack said plans? 

   I am relatively new to this subject, so I may be completely off direction wise. I am but a golf ball whacker guy who likes to read. 

Have a great day!

-Jeff  

[Paul Trejo]

On 12/21/2017 at 8:56 AM, Jeffrey Reilley said:

Mr. Trejo,

   I agree that Veciana was solely after Fidel. I don't believe you would find many that disagree with that. I have not read much that suggests a finger should be pointed towards him in relation to JFK's murder. 

  However, if DAP, Veciana, and LHO were all on board this train of "let's go get Fidel", how exactly would the Dallas right-wingers be privy to the sensitive operation that was taking place? I mean, Veciana was with Frank Sturgis within two weeks of seeing DAP with LHO, which to me seems like a lot of big hitters in this saga going after the same goal: killing Fidel, not JFK. Who then would have the ability to set them all up, to the point that they would bury their own guy(Oswald) to save their own face?  Although I make it a point to never underestimate my enemies, I find it hard to believe that ex-general Walker and the people of his ilk had that ability. 

  In DAP's novel, didn't he have it so Oswald took the plan for taking out Fidel and use it for killing JFK? Although a work of fiction, in the real world would there not be people above DAP that would have been in the proverbial loop as to what those plans were? Would they not have the means, motive, and opportunity to hijack said plans? 

   I am relatively new to this subject, so I may be completely off direction wise. I am but a golf ball whacker guy who likes to read. 

Have a great day!

-Jeff  

Jeff,

In my CT, the JFK Kill Team was involved in the framing of Lee Harvey Oswald as an FPCC Communist during the summer of 1963.   The mechanism for getting Oswald to cooperate was to tell him a fabrication -- namely -- that he was involved in a conspiracy to kill Fidel Castro.

For most of 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald believed that he was participating in a plot to kill Fidel Castro (according to me).   This is the also the best explanation for the Mexico City episode.   It also explains DAP's involvement, and also DAP's novel.  It also explains why LHO would scare Marina and Ron Lewis with talk about hijacking an airplane to Cuba.  It also explains the DAP/Oswald/Veciana meeting in Dallas.

It also explains how many people in New Orleans could have been involved with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orelans, without having any clue that a JFK Assassination plot was underway.   It also explains how the Dallas Team and the smaller New Orleans team cooperated.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited December 23, 2017 by Paul Trejo
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