When did the second floor lunchroom encounter first come to light?

[David Josephs]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:30 PM, Lance Payette said:

I was referring to the inevitable confusion and chaos that ensues when a President is shot on a public street in broad daylight and people are running around like chickens with their heads cut off, and specifically the confusion within the TBSD, and even more specifically the confusion of two men running through the building with the idea that the shooter(s) might still be inside.  The sense you are talking about, where sowing confusion is actually part of the assassination plan, obviously depends on what the plan was.

I believe the person coming down, as described in Baker's affidavit and the official version, was LHO.  I believe Baker's affidavit is an inartful description of what was later fleshed out as the second floor lunchroom encounter.  You can and presumably will say this is preposterous, but the fact is that the affidavit strikes me as a quick-and-dirty description of the same event as the lunchroom encounter.

 

Of course, that's what I would have asked.  My guess is, Baker would have said something like:  "The man was Oswald.  In the immediate aftermath of the assassination, I was confused about what floor we were on.  When I said the man was walking away from the stairway, I meant he was walking away from where I was on the stairway, which is why he had to turn when I called to him.  I summarized the event in a couple of lines, having no idea that every word would later be scrutinized with a microscope."  My guess would be that he probably did say something like this, which is why the issue had turned into a pumpkin by the time of his Warren Commission testimony.

 

Well, honestly, who cares what I think?

I haven't even written a book.  But since you've asked, I am heavily inclined to the Lone Nut theory; open to a possible "conspiracy" where LHO was the lone shooter (and lead conspirator) but possibly working with a couple of pro-Castro helpers; and somewhat less open to a small-scale conspiracy where LHO was cooperating with pro-Castro conspirators.  I reject any notion that LHO was a false defector, actually a member of the radical right rather than a Marxist, or a patsy in any sort of elaborate conspiracy involving LBJ, CIA, FBI, Military Intelligence, DPD, Mafia or the other usual suspects.

I can recognize the inconsistency between Baker's affidavit and the official version as "a problem" without regarding it as an insurmountable problem.  Yes, as I said in my OP, even as a more-or-less Lone Nutter I am not entirely happy with the lunchroom encounter - which is one of the reasons I tend to believe it's true.

I'm not laughing at those who see something sinister in these events.  A sinister interpretation is certainly possible.  It just seems weak to me.  (I just downloaded all 1600 pages of Reclaiming History on my Kindle at the exorbitant price of $30, which I never bothered to read when I was more of a conspiracy theorist myself.  So I will presumably emerge in a month or so as a full-tilt Lone Nutter.)

Lance...

"I'm not laughing at those who see something sinister in these events."    I see that and it's appreciated from a purely intellectual POV...

The very first "The Evidence IS the Conspiracy" article I wrote I made the assumption that Oswald was the LN and accomplished his goal, his plan...  But then I look closely at the details and timing of this "plan" and some of the most simple thing begin to unravel....

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-on-november-22-1963   is the article... it's not very long and goes to the heart of your conclusion...

That is - if Oswald did it he must have passed thru some key milestones to be at the window with the rifle at the right time...

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:30 PM, Lance Payette said:

Well, honestly, who cares what I think?

Well, honestly, many of us do.  Someone who can articulate their position while leaving the door open for additional info is the PERFECT forum member...  I can respect Tracy for his POV and approach...  I simply disagree with his analysis and conclusions.

I'd be very interested in your take on the little article I wrote years ago...  it is the opening essay to a collection of work I am compiling.  And while I agree with Salandria about the minutia wearing us down... it is in the minutia that the WCR gives away its cover-up....

You may have seen this BOSWELL drawing... basically describing how most of the skull was gone...

 

 

Had you seen the ARRB skull where BOSWELL draws the missing bone right on it?

 

 

Now contrast that what was seen at Parkland by those who as close as HUMES or BOSWELL.   That's quite a difference, no?

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

I realize this is a tangent...

With regards to the Lunchroom charade....  I don't know how deeply you've worked with the evidence offered but that's my area of focus.

It appears to me that wherever the FBI/SS/CIA/DPD could lie about something, they did.  Not 100% of course... but I see a plan that allows for a variety of different people to see and tell an accurate truth that - in the end - conflicts with other "accurate truths".

When witnesses are in such conflict with the physical evidence... and ALL the physical (and verbal) evidence is literally taken by the FBI the night of the 22nd.. we are left with evidence which completely skirts the chain of custody authentication process....

If the evidence in total cannot be trusted as "authentic" - the charges against Oswald based on such evidence are also not authentic.

If Oswald was the man coming down the stair... how much more incriminating can that be Lance?  than say a man behind a auto-closing door which takes a few seconds to do so, holding a coke he must have had time to purchase with witnesses claiming that was where he was left prior to the entire mess.

The real problem to me comes with the description which amazingly matches the description given by a number of people...  yet OZZIE was barely 5'9" and weighed no more than 135lbs...  so this to me means there was even more reason to use the affidavit...  it matched all the other descriptions... just not Oswald.

BAKER: "The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."

BRENNAN: He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds.

Signal 19, involving the President. Suspect: white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches, one hundred sixty-five pounds, believed to have used 30 caliber rifle. Believed to be in the old School Book Depository, Elm and Houston, at this time.

Attention Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45.

Edited January 4, 2018 by David Josephs

[James DiEugenio]

David Josephs: Well, honestly, many of us do. 

 

Speak for yourself David.

[David Josephs]

9 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

David Josephs: Well, honestly, many of us do. 

 

Speak for yourself David.

I am Jim....

Nothing wrong hearing out the thoughts of someone else - even if one disagrees - especially on these pages....

To me it simply makes the evidence directed explanations contrast more sharply with the LN conclusion.

Yet, those of the LN ilk are still missing some very important connections and blatant conflicts with the LN story...

As I've said repeatedly here, "People ain't gonna learn what they don't wanna know" and is true on both sides of this coin.... 

The time of the LNer being taken seriously has passed.  Just interesting to see which parts of the story they hang their hats upon...

no personal offense intended...

[Sandy Larsen]

23 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." 
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

 

When David J. quoted Mrs. Reid's WC testimony earlier in this thread, I believe his point for doing so was to show why it was necessary for the WC to change Baker's 3rd/4th floor encounter to the 2nd floor.

Many of us now do not believe a 2nd floor encounter occurred. My own research led me to believe that, and I'm familiar with some of the ROKC research (like Bart's) that leads me to the same conclusion.

But what of the Mrs. Reid testimony? Without her testimony, most the other testimony has Oswald buying a coke on the 2nd floor before the motorcade goes by, going down to the first floor, and eating lunch in the lunchroom there. Then hanging around there and going outside and standing near Bill Shelley, for a while, near the time the shooting took place. Around that time, some saw Oswald standing in or near a little storage room near the the front door.

My question is, how does one explain Reid's testimony? Did Oswald go back up to the 2nd floor after the shooting took place? Stay there for a moment and then go back down? If so, for what reason? To get another coke?

Or is this a case of yet one more employee lying to buttress the fabricated story of the 2nd floor encounter?

Bart? David J.? Anybody else who doesn't believe a 2nd floor encounter occurred?

 

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

My question is, how does one explain Reid's testimony? Did Oswald go back up to the 2nd floor after the shooting took place? Stay there for a moment and then go back down? If so, for what reason? To get another coke?

Well Sandy... 

From what I understood Oswald was eating lunch on the 1st floor and then went up to the 2nd floor...  got the coke and walked thru the 2nd floor offices to leave the building passing Mrs. Reid who obviously had been let back into the same building where the DPD claims they were searching for a man with a rifle...  but those citizens just keep streaming back into that building and people are coming out... let alone what occurs at the back doors...  here is the exhibit Reid marked...  He could have easily walked down the back steps and out the back... instead Pierce Allman supposedly runs into Oswald on his way in.... looking for a phone.

could the lunchroom scene have been created due to this testimony from Reid?  Mrs Reid testified right after Marrion Baker on March 25th  but had spoken to BELIN on the 20th.

Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct? 
Mrs. REID. That is right. 
Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? 
Mrs. REID. That is right. 
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you? 
Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes. 
 

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first saw him? 
Mrs. REID. Right here. 
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28? 
Mrs. REID. That is right. 
Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497? 
Mrs. REID. That is right. 
Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway? 
Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there? 
Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29. 
Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange? 
Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk. 
Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were when you thought you passed him. 
Mrs. REID. Here. 
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put for Mrs. Reid. 

 

There is the Armstrong answer which has some legs...   that it was Lee who Reid sees, not Harvey.  With Whaley reconfirming the man he drove had on an over coat to his brownish over shirt... and Bledsoe's testimony discredited... 

Later that afternoon, I heard that the City had a suspect in custody and I called and reported the information about the suspect running down the hill and getting into a car to Captain Fritz and was requested to come at once to City Hall. I went to the City Hall and identified the suspect they had in custody as being the same person I saw running down this hill and get into the station wagon and leave the scene.

Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? 
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?
Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. 

Mr. BELIN - Was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a jacket?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I don't believe he was.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper. 
Mr. WHALEY. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.
Mr. BALL. Look something like it?
And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he had on? 
Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one. 
Mr. BALL. That is right. 
Mr. WHALEY. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt. 
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it. 
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. You said that a jacket-- 
Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir. 
Mr. BALL. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket. 
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. 

 

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Did Baker actually see Oswald in the lunch room, or just infer it?

 

"Mr. DULLES - Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully.
If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course, that he--that you saw him follow?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the right.
Mr. BELIN - By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the-- this is--
Mr. BAKER - This is a hallway right here.
Mr. BELIN - It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there.
Mr. DULLES - Yes.
Mr. BAKER - And he had no business in there, and the lunchroom would be the only place that he would be going..."

 

I've been racking my brains about the lunchroom for the last couple of days ever since Jim DiEugenio brought up the question of when the story of coke first appeared.

 

It seems to me that if you were trying to frame someone for JFK's murder, the last thing you would want to do is give him an alibi by placing him in the lunchroom within 90 seconds of the crime. And then when I read this exchange with Allen Dulles, it hit me. The effort was not to put Oswald in the lunchroom, it was to put him near the stairs. No one saw him commit the crime, (your only eyewitness failed to identify him in a lineup)  or leaving the scene. No one saw him coming down the stairs, so the next best thing was to put him near them.

 

If Oswald had been coming down the stairs...

 

When Lumpkin and Truly went to tell Fritz at approximately 1:30 that Oswald was missing, did they tell Fritz that Truly had run into Oswald in the lunchroom? Not to my knowledge.

When Johnson took Baker's affidavit, did he go to Fritz and say, "Hey Captain, you know that guy you've got in the interrogation room; well I've got an officer out here who said he ran into that guy in the lunchroom 90 seconds after the shooting?  Not to my knowledge.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

When Lumpkin and Truly went to tell Fritz at approximately 1:30 that Oswald was missing,

According to Truly this happens much earlier....  he felt is was before 1pm just after Fritz had arrived.

They were congregated around the spot where the rifle was found yet Truly is not aware of that entire situation happening in front of him?

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him? 
Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle. 
Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time? 
Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle. 
Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building? 
Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building. 
Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found? 
Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know. 
Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz? 
Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor. 

Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address? 
Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. 
Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? 
Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? 
Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock. 
Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place. 
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct? 
Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. 
Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? 
Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer. 
Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? 
Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. 
Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? 
Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory. 

[Ron Bulman]

18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I read your article a few weeks back.  Excellent.  But This connection went right over my head.

I'd read about Texas School Book Depository Vice President Occus Campbell before.  Truly said they were headed out together for lunch and stopped to watch the parade.  Campbell was quoted, on the 22nd, in it turns out the New York Times Herald as saying that as they went back into the building after the assassination "we saw him (Oswald) in a small Storage Room On The First Floor".   Somebody somewhere once posted a picture of this storage room, it's right by the front door and stairs to the second floor in the entryway/vestibule.

I know I read this part, but the first time, woosh.  In the Dallas Morning News (the Morning edition?) on 11/23/63 Kent Biffle reported "In a Storage Room On the First Floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald. "Does this man work here", the officer reportedly asked Truly".  

I'm no attorney in any shape form or fashion but I think Perry Mason might have tried to call that Corroboration on behalf of his client. 

When I wrote this I wondered about Biffle's source, thought it might be from Campbell also.  Looking around today I came across the link below.  In it Hasan says Biffle overheard Truly telling FRITZ he had seen Oswald near the storage room on the first floor, as he went inside with Baker.  I don't know if Biffle told someone this or where Hasan found it but if true everything Fritz said about the investigation and interrogation is pretty much crap.

http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-lunchroom-encounter-that-never-was.html

I swear I don't remember ever reading this blog before I started this thread.  It felt weird finding it and thinking someone was talking about this four years ago but I've never seen it? 

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

When David J. quoted Mrs. Reid's WC testimony earlier in this thread, I believe his point for doing so was to show why it was necessary for the WC to change Baker's 3rd/4th floor encounter to the 2nd floor.

Many of us now do not believe a 2nd floor encounter occurred. My own research led me to believe that, and I'm familiar with some of the ROKC research (like Bart's) that leads me to the same conclusion.

But what of the Mrs. Reid testimony? Without her testimony, most the other testimony has Oswald buying a coke on the 2nd floor before the motorcade goes by, going down to the first floor, and eating lunch in the lunchroom there. Then hanging around there and going outside and standing near Bill Shelley, for a while, near the time the shooting took place. Around that time, some saw Oswald standing in or near a little storage room near the the front door.

My question is, how does one explain Reid's testimony? Did Oswald go back up to the 2nd floor after the shooting took place? Stay there for a moment and then go back down? If so, for what reason? To get another coke?

Or is this a case of yet one more employee lying to buttress the fabricated story of the 2nd floor encounter?

Bart? David J.? Anybody else who doesn't believe a 2nd floor encounter occurred?

 

This get's deep in a hurry,.  The Aussie's at ROKC have hashed it out some.  Mrs. Reid, and, Two Mrs. Reeds working at the TSBD.   Two Mrs. Reid's too at one point?  No, a deliberate deception (?) debunked?

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t559-geraldean-reid

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/mrs-robert-reid/

I thought I'd read she was Truly's secretary.  No.  She worked her way up to clerical supervisor on the second floor outside  TSBD VP Ochus Campbell's office.  Truly's office was on the first floor.  They did watch the parade together.  If she was loyal, wanted to keep her job and was leaned on by one and the DPD/FBI/SS...  She had four months to (be) prepare(d) for her statement in March.  

I can't find it again tonight but earlier today found it unusual that Mrs. Reid's first statement about this was taken by the Secret Service on December 4th.  Almost 2 weeks after, by Them?   Maybe I'm mistaken or confused about something else I read.

Last, somewhere on this forum or jfk facts I remember reading about this but should dig deeper before posting.  Their was a young lady (whose name I can't remember at the moment) that volunteered to stay inside the vestibule and "man" the receptionists desk and phones because she had seen JFK before so others could see him in the parade.  She said the pones went dead and the power went out at the time of the assassination.  This whole last part is from memory.  She also said positively, emphatically, under questioning, refusing to change her story that Mrs. Reid(?) did Not pass by her or go up the stairs ahead of others re-entering.  It was all important regarding timing of when Reid could have seen Oswald.  Aghhh!!!  What was the lady's name!      

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Not sure but I think Bart had done some work on this.

Edited January 5, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Guest]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Not sure but I think Bart had sone some work on this.

Indeed. Pages 75-78

[Ron Bulman]

13 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Indeed. Pages 75-78

Yes, Geneva Hine has to be who I was thinking of.   I don't know where I got that when she changed desks to answer the phones it involved moving to the first floor.  Interesting to note she says she did Not see Oswald on the 2nd floor and he would have had to have passed her going to the stairs to the first floor. "I don't believe there was a soul in the office" when she came back from the window, after the power and phones went dead and she went to look out to see what was going on.  That Mrs. Reid came back up with a group, I. E. that she would not have been alone out in the middle of this open area of desks trying to converse with Oswald.  Finally she says the first person into the office after the assassination is a policeman.    Here is her full testimony.

 https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol6/page393.php

It pretty much blows Mrs. Reid's testimony apart.  She seems to have conviction in her statements, even as she clarifies some.  Interesting she has a Bachelor of Science degree in Theology, no guarantee of veracity (see Jerry Fallwell, Jim Baker) but one would hope maybe she was being truthful.  Both women claim Oswald came to them for change for the coke machine.  Geneva, dimes and quarters on a daily basis.  She calls him unfriendly and stoic because she would speak to him in the warehouse and he would not respond, she never saw him smile or laugh.  She once asked SHelly what kind of a queer duck do you have working down here.  He said that was just his way.

Mrs. Reid was not so effusive or descriptive but she towed the line and followed Truly's lead.  Her testimony was featured.  Geneva Hine's was buried.

[Sandy Larsen]

Thanks Ron, very helpful to me. And Bart, I did some further reading in Anatomy... truly an amazing piece of work.

In his interrogations, Oswald made no mention of going to the second floor after lunch . Only Mrs. Reid made that claim. But her testimony is nullified by the testimony Geneva Hine. Hine said that she alone had stayed in the second-floor office during the motorcade. She left for a short period of time immediate after the shooting to look out the east windows, then returned... knocking on a couple of locked office doors on her way back. She was the only one in the room when she arrived back in the second-floor office. For Mrs. Reid's story to be true, she had to have already been in the office when Hine returned.

I am now satisfied that Mrs. Reid lied about seeing Oswald on the second floor after the shooting.

 

[Guest]

Thank you Sandy. I appreciate the feedback.

I will post another update soon with about 20 pages extra material.