Mrs. Stanton, Mrs. Sanders, where are you?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Bart,

With all due respect, you're full of beans, dude.

A severe case of wishful thinking on your part.  (One of the worst I've ever seen, in fact.)

--  Tommy 

 

Keep dreaming Tommy, keep hope alive!

[Andrej Stancak]

Here is the doorway scene in Darnell film with provisional name labels. At least as I understand them currently. Happy to change if we can gather convincing evidence.

[Andrej Stancak]

I did some research into the background of both ladies using publicly available data. Mrs. Stanton appeared not to be married. I was able to find an association with a person which was her sister, however, she also passed away. Thus, it is almost impossible to get any data on her appearance or a picture now. However, Mrs. Sanders was married and had children, and her son may live in Dallas. There is still a chance to at least ask about Mrs. Sanders and her appearance (height, body build), or even obtain her photograph. This would help to solve the problem of identities of the two ladies standing on the top landing on that fateful Friday afternoon. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

Check my post at the bottom of page 1.

 

With regards your drawing.

There is no Lovelady as he is gone

No Shelley as he is gone

No Calvery as there is no proof to ID her.

No Hicks as there is no proof to ID her.

No McCully  as there is no proof to ID her.

No Williams as he is gone

No Davis as there is no proof to ID her.

Stanton may be the short heavy set lady you found in Darnell

Sanders is nowhere to be seen.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Chris Davidson]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?usp=sharing

[Andrej Stancak]

A very instructive clip, Chris. The lady in white keeps moving the whole time while ascending the steps. The lady in dark cloth appeared to arrive sooner than the lady in white. 

The point which I find important in the context of the reconstruction of Darnell doorway is that the scene corresponds to some 30 seconds of time that elapsed since the last shot rang out.  Therefore, the people on steps would still be at identical or similar locations as evidenced in Wiegman film and Altgens6.  

[Chris Davidson]

Andrej,

I would agree that Baker reaches the curb some 30 seconds after the last shot.

I do not agree with your assumption that everyone reacts the same way and therefore no-one moved(maybe they did, maybe they didn't) within that time period. Thirty seconds can be an eternity in terms of movement.

As for Baker:

The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to
Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

This total = approx 29.8 seconds.
 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

17 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Andrej,

I would agree that Baker reaches the curb some 30 seconds after the last shot.

I do not agree with your assumption that everyone reacts the same way and therefore no-one moved(maybe they did, maybe they didn't) within that time period. Thirty seconds can be an eternity in terms of movement.

As for Baker:

The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to
Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

This total = approx 29.8 seconds.
 

 

 

Chris:

some doorway occupants moved and some not during the period between Wiegman (Altgens6) and Darnell. Mrs. Reese, a short lady, stepped few steps up which would give a better chance to view what is going on up there over the Tripple Underpass. Carl Jones left the doorway entirely. Mr. Frazier moved about 2 feet forward. Prayer Man turned around towards his left compared to Wiegman. However, Mrs. Ruth Dean is exactly where she was in Wiegman film. So is Mr. Williams, the man shielding his eyes with one arm. And the same holds for the man in a black suit (Bill Shelley) who stands in the center-east part of the top landing in Altgens6, Wiegman and Darnell. Billy Lovelady moved towards the western wall and maybe a step or two down. Mrs. Stanton, if my analysis is correct, moved slightly back into the shadow of the top landing. 

So, yes, people moved during the 30 seconds after the last shot but the doorway scene still shows the people who were there during the shooting at their locations or at locations not far from their locations in Wiegman. This what I believe my reconstruction shows.

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

A very instructive clip, Chris. The lady in white keeps moving the whole time while ascending the steps. The lady in dark cloth appeared to arrive sooner than the lady in white. 

The point which I find important in the context of the reconstruction of Darnell doorway is that the scene corresponds to some 30 seconds of time that elapsed since the last shot rang out.  Therefore, the people on steps would still be at identical or similar locations as evidenced in Wiegman film and Altgens6.  

Andrej,

I'll concede that the lady in dark (including a dark headscarf and a boldly patterned skirt with dark horizontal stripes that's a lighter color than her sweater) is on that step before lady in white (including a white headscarf) arrives.  Both of those ladies have been spotted by Sandy and I in the Z-Film, standing with a couple of other close-together, headscarf-wearing ladies which group is immediately to the left of the positively identified guys, Templin and Brandt.

IIRC, in the Z-Film the lady in white can be seen wearing "heels," whereas the lady in dark two people to her right is wearing "flats".  Which could help to explain how lady in dark arrived at the steps a few seconds before lady in white (whom I believe grabs a-hold of her friend's right arm as she's ascending the steps. 

In short, I believe you have Lovelady and Calvery and Hicks/(Reed?) labeled correctly in your drawing.

Keep up the good work.

--  Tommy 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Andrej,

I'll concede that the lady in dark (including a dark headscarf and a boldly patterned skirt with dark horizontal stripes that's a lighter color than her sweater) is on that step before lady in white (including a white headscarf) arrives.  Both of those ladies have been spotted by Sandy and I in the Z-Film, standing with a couple of other close-together, headscarf-wearing ladies which group is immediately to the left of the positively identified guys, Templin and Brandt.

IIRC, in the Z-Film the lady in white can be seen wearing "heels," whereas the lady in dark two people to her right is wearing "flats".  Which could help to explain how lady in dark arrived at the steps a few seconds before lady in white (whom I believe grabs a-hold of her friend's right arm as she's ascending the steps. 

In short, I believe you have Lovelady and Calvery and Hicks/(Reed?) labeled correctly in your drawing.

Keep up the good work.

--  Tommy 

5

Tommy,

would it be possible to maybe measure the distance from the spot the two ladies occupied during the shooting (in Z film) and the Depository doorway? We can then estimate their time possibilities they had to reach the doorway better. 

Your impression that the two ladies had their arms intertwined was not silly at all, I fell for it as well. Only when I failed to fit the white lady in this way did I realise that she was a freelancer. There was an alley in the crowd of people in the western half of the doorway whichis visualized in the top view of the doorway in one of my earlier posts. The lady in white had a clear path if she wanted to enter the building.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy,

would it be possible to maybe measure the distance from the spot the two ladies occupied during the shooting (in Z film) and the Depository doorway? We can then estimate their time possibilities they had to reach the doorway better. 

Your impression that the two ladies had their arms intertwined was not silly at all, I fell for it as well. Only when I failed to fit the white lady in this way did I realise that she was a freelancer. There was an alley in the crowd of people in the western half of the doorway whichis visualized in the top view of the doorway in one of my earlier posts. The lady in white had a clear path if she wanted to enter the building.

 

Andrej,

Probably the best way to do that is to google Don Roberdeau's revised Dealy Plaza "map" and find the dots labeled "Templin" and "Brandt" on the Elm Street sidewalk. Lady in Dark was standing immediately to the left of John Templin (whom you can see in the Z-Film), and Lady in White is the second gal to the left of her.

(I believe Roberdeau has mislabled some of the dots in that immediate area, like "Burney," for example IIRC.)

Chris Davidson could probably tell you how far "Templin" and "Brandt" were from the TSBD's steps ...

--  Tommy 

PS  The lady in white's left shoulder dips as she starts going up the next step, which suggests to me that the weight of lady in black is causing that to happen.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Gary Murr]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

would it be possible to maybe measure the distance from the spot the two ladies occupied during the shooting (in Z film) and the Depository doorway? We can then estimate their time possibilities they had to reach the doorway better. 

Andrej:

If you [or someone] is able to indicate the position of the ladies in question relative to the four "live" oak trees that run along and in front of the Elm Street extension [that runs to the railroad yards] I have some exact measurements of distances from these trees to the front of the TSBD, measurements [with accompanying diagrams] constructed by SA Brent Hughes of the FBI Exhibits Section on December 6, 1963.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Gary Murr
Stroke through inadvertently on during my writing

[Thomas Graves]

11 minutes ago, Gary Murr said:

Andrej:

If you [or someone] is able to indicate the position of the ladies in question relative to the four "live" oak trees that run along and in front of the Elm Street extension [that runs to the railroad yards] I have some exact measurements of distances from these trees to the front of the TSBD, measurements [with accompanying diagrams] constructed by SA Brent Hughes of the FBI Exhibits Section on December 6, 1963.

 

Gary,

With all due respect, see my response to that question, above.

--  Tommy 

[Gary Murr]

Hello Tommy:

No problem - and I did see your reply to Andrej before my offer. No offense to Don Roberdeau and his map , which I am familiar with and is excellent. However, perhaps the information I have, coupled with Don's witness positioning can aid with the end results Andrej [and others] are trying to achieve. As I indicated in my  prior response, the measurements I have were taken within two weeks of the assassination event, on site, with the aid of surveyors equipment.

FWIW

 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Gary Murr
Strike through stuck on again

[Thomas Graves]

8 minutes ago, Gary Murr said:

Hello Tommy:

No problem - and I did see your reply to Andrej before my offer. No offense to Don Roberdeau and his map , which I am familiar with and is excellent. However, perhaps the information I have, coupled with Don's witness positioning,can aid with the end result Andrej and others are trying to achieve. As I indicated in my prior response, the measurements I have were taken within two weeks of the assassination event, onsite, with the aide of surveyors equipment.

FWIW

Gary

Gary,

Perhaps the information you have is more accurate than Don's?

I have no problem with that whatsoever.

I'm just saying that it's an easy-to-verify fact that the "Lady in Dark" and the "Lady in White" (who are the topic of several recent posts in this thread) were standing just to the left of the easy-to-spot-in-the-Z-Film John Templin (and his bud, a Mr. Brandt, whose first name I forget at the moment).

--  Tommy 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves