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David Josephs

Psychiatric autopsy performed on Oswald... language disability

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I am both suggesting and asking about whether someone with Asperger's and difficulty writing (as is evident in virtually every ENGLISH written document from Ozzie)
Would be able to not only learn RUSSIAN but write it with what appears to have been NO ERRORS similar to the English written words...

When does this assumption of "Asperger's" give way to a native Russian speaker learning and writing English and the results thereafter?

 

CE3134 below, is by the same Dr. ROME who was reporting on Hemingway's condition when he was admitted to the Mayo Clinic as George Sevier.. and who many feel was involved in changing the man enough to cause him to commit suicide...

It wasn’t money or terminal cancer (https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/opinion/02hotchner.htmlthat drove the Nobel Prize winner to kill himself with a double-barreled shotgun, at least according to his friends. Many of them say that it was the FBI that made him paranoid. Hemingway was admitted to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota in 1960 for growing mental and physical illness. He died that summer. “The Clinic had suggested that Mr. Hemingway register under the alias George Sevier,” a January 13, 1961 letter to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover said. “Mr. Hemingway is now worried about his registering under an assumed name, and is concerned about an FBI investigation.”

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3134.pdf is the report which Dr. ROME sends to the WCR which attempts to state that OSWALD had a specific language disability:

image.png.809fb815ed4950cfea048a8098cda211.png

 

Those with Asperger syndrome have some ability with language in its widest sense, hence their huge potential in learning a new language, but have difficulty with abstraction and creativity. Those with dyslexic difficulties tend to find reading and spelling their main area of difficulty, but they are frequently highly creative.  http://languageswithoutlimits.co.uk/resources/SfLAutism.pdf

 

In Class Strategies  https://www.brighthubeducation.com/teaching-tips-foreign-languages/64308-aspergers-and-learning-languages/ 

There are some useful strategies and considerations when teaching a language to someone with Asperger's Syndrome. Here are a few suggestions:
Find out how they learn best - this information may be in their IEP, or you could talk to the person about their preferred learning styles
Concrete examples - you may find that concrete, meaningful, real life examples of language work best, and that abstract or imagination based tasks are much more challenging
Role play - this is a handy strategy, providing the young person is able to understand that it is a role play and not a real life event that you are conducting
Language in action - show how language is used in a practical way, with language being used in cooking tasks, when reading a magazine, in online activities or in conjunction with other learning (such as games on an interactive whiteboard) 

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David,

        I have been a Board Certified American psychiatrist for the past 30 years.  Although I have not studied much about Oswald, and have not read his actual writings, I find it hard to believe that he suffered from a major mental illness-- including any serious cognitive or executive function deficits.  

         Why?   Mainly because of his "successful" service in the Marine Corps, and his apparent, long-term work for U.S. intelligence-- including a protracted stint as a false defector to the USSR.  Such work would require fairly high ego functioning and commitment over time-- moving to a foreign country, maintaining a "legend," working, getting married, etc.  Emigrating to a foreign country is extremely stressful for most people, in general, especially for those who don't speak or understand the language well.

         As for his alleged language disability, the diagnosis seems questionable for someone who, reportedly, learned Russian at the U.S. military school in Monterey, California during his Marine Corps service. On the other hand, I can see why the Warren Commission would have been interested in portraying Oswald as mentally impaired.  A "Lone Nut" is, by definition, a "nut."

        I wonder if there has been much written (by George De Mohrenschildt or Marina) about Oswald's fluency in Russian.
        

Edited by W. Niederhut

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Maybe they (powers that be) sent an American over to Russia and a Russian came back.  I don't understand why this (if) happened -- the purpose.  I mean who was to gain from this?  What was the point?  And the emotion the Oswald family displayed at LHO's funeral.  I don't think he was a blood relative.  Robert Oswald was not related to his "brother's" children.  He never visited them.

Kathy C

 

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WN,

good meeting you ....  and thank you by way of confirmation of the thoughts

Oswald never "learned" Russian...  he spoke it flawlessly and was in fact even said to have been good enough to be an interpreter ...  except there is not mention of the Monterey School (at which an old learned French translation - I lived in Monterey a while) nor is there any mention of the schooling for Russian in his Service Record...

The "alleged" language disability is a line of thought put forward by those who cannot see how that contradicts his abilities in Russian... or try to avoid attributing the poor English (and lack of any southern accent) to it NOT being the man's 1st language...

Marina claimed Ozzie had an accent from the region while articles a plenty have been written about the strange accent... 

 

Gary Oldman:

Share Tweet  Jan 16, 2018 

Gary Oldman found mastering president-killer Lee Harvey Oswald’s accent daunting while he was working on Oliver Stone’s 1991 movie Jfk.
The Brit, who is winning acclaim and awards for portraying Winston Churchill in Darkest Hour, was so confident he knew what John F. Kennedy’s assassin sounded like, he left the accent until after he’d researched the character’s past – only to discover Oswald sounded nothing like he imagined.
“The producers gave me a per diem, an airline ticket and a couple of contacts with addresses and phone numbers… and I became an investigator to find Oswald,” Gary explains. “I was in New Orleans and Dallas. It all felt very shady.
“I think I’ve got the accent in the bag, this sort of Southern thing, like Matthew McConaughey, and then I see him (Oswald) speak and he’s got the weirdest accent in the world. He sounded a little like Kermit the Frog!”

This is the famous moment when he reacts to being charged for JFK...  about a min in...  at 22 seconds in he starts talking...  would you EVER guess this man spent 21 of his 24 years in the south?   And the crazy thing was that at age 12, 13, 14 in NYC having just moved - did not have a "southern" accent at all...

http://harveyandlee.net/Comrade/Comrade_boy.html  is an article that contrasts Harvey in USSR and Lee here in the USA...

1295892933_PeterGregory-certifiesOswaldspeaksRussian.thumb.jpg.1b00df577084a770e9f7dfca27085853.jpg

We are to remember that Oswald arrives June 13th...   within a week he contacts P P Gregory (a Russian speaking Petroleum engineer... hmmmm, where have we heard THAT title before?) in order to have HIM certify his proficiency in Russian...  so what I say ???

Oswald and Paul

EDIT: IT'S BEEN BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION THAT THIS WAS NOT PAUL GREGORY... BUT ALEXANDER ZIGER..
SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION AND MISLABELING

106960514_OswaldandPaulGregory.thumb.jpg.9642c9eb674fa781e33f3f69c6f21317.jpg

Turns out his dad, Peter Paul Gregory helped George Kunkel with Marina

246398932_PeterGregoryandMarinaandGeorgeKunkeltoherleft.jpg.16f037b55adfc56074a992ed43cf6eb8.jpg

 

Edited by David Josephs

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On 8/14/2018 at 1:33 PM, W. Niederhut said:

I wonder if there has been much written (by George De Mohrenschildt or Marina) about Oswald's fluency in Russian.

From De Mohrenschildt's manuscript "I Am a patsy!  I am a Patsy!"

DeMohren_Russian.jpg

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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

From De Mohrenschildt's manuscript "I Am a patsy!  I am a Patsy!"

DeMohren_Russian.jpg

Remarkable...  Oswald read  Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Gogol, and Turgenev in Russian?

How do we explain that one?

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12 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Remarkable...  Oswald read  Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Gogol, and Turgenev in Russian?

How do we explain that one?

Some people believe that, as part of his spy training, he secretly took Russian at the U.S. Army's Monterey School of languages.  However, official USMC records, as well as recollections of his Marine associates, indicate he was not based near Monterey nor did he ever have time for such extensive training there.

My belief is that the man killed by Jack Ruby was a native Russian speaker.  See:

https://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html

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One has to wonder then why he needs Peter Gregory to confirm his abilities..

He never actually USED this recommendation to DO anything... Kinda like LIFE buying Zap's "film" only to lock it away...

The son's father teaches Russian and instead he goes to Marina/Ozzie for lessons and discussion...

Me thinks there's more to these Gregory's than meets the eye...

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On 8/16/2018 at 7:34 AM, David Josephs said:

One has to wonder then why he needs Peter Gregory to confirm his abilities..

He never actually USED this recommendation to DO anything... Kinda like LIFE buying Zap's "film" only to lock it away...

The son's father teaches Russian and instead he goes to Marina/Ozzie for lessons and discussion...

Me thinks there's more to these Gregory's than meets the eye...

That is an interesting focus David because I do know for sure that Simpich (at least sometime ago) cited Gregory's vouching for LHO as one of the strongest proofs of LHO's proficiency in Russian. I do believe that Walt Brown doesn't believe LHO knew Russian very well (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I wanted to toss the Gregory bit at him to see how he'd dissect it. If it can be broken down, perhaps this could be something relating to the fact (and lack?) thereof of LHO's evidence of knowing Russian. Also, this motivates me to consider this....say LHO did not know Russian....then lets consider Mexico City and how the man on the phone spoke "broken Russian"....I mean what the hell? Doesn't that almost jive with the alternate possibility that LHO did not know Russian all that much lol? If LHO did know Russian (putting aside the H&L bit) then its bad for the conspirators, and if he didn't know Russian it could've actually worked for the impersonated phone calls.... I know there is so much more to this than I will probably ever know (hell, Blunt himself won't go near Mexico City lol).

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14 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

That is an interesting focus David because I do know for sure that Simpich (at least sometime ago) cited Gregory's vouching for LHO as one of the strongest proofs of LHO's proficiency in Russian. I do believe that Walt Brown doesn't believe LHO knew Russian very well (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I wanted to toss the Gregory bit at him to see how he'd dissect it. If it can be broken down, perhaps this could be something relating to the fact (and lack?) thereof of LHO's evidence of knowing Russian. Also, this motivates me to consider this....say LHO did not know Russian....then lets consider Mexico City and how the man on the phone spoke "broken Russian"....I mean what the hell? Doesn't that almost jive with the alternate possibility that LHO did not know Russian all that much lol? If LHO did know Russian (putting aside the H&L bit) then its bad for the conspirators, and if he didn't know Russian it could've actually worked for the impersonated phone calls.... I know there is so much more to this than I will probably ever know (hell, Blunt himself won't go near Mexico City lol).

No matter who I read it seems they can state that it MAY not have been Oswald down there, yet continue the argument as if it HAD to be Oswald...  (e.g. the testimony about Oswald pitching a fit at the Cuban Embassy...  to get remembered...  except - it wasn't Oswald who was in Dallas with 2 Hispanic looking men visiting Odio and tooling around Dallas

So your thought may be interesting yet there are numerous people here in the US after 1962 who are aware of his Russian language proficiency..

One also has to wonder how Marina and Marguerite communicated...  One spoke no Russian while the other supposedly spoke no English...  :secret
 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11472#relPageId=2&tab=page 

img_11472_2_300.png

 

H&L p.226
Henry Roussell, Jr. served with Harvey Oswald for 3 or 4 months in MACS 9 at Santa Ana (MACS 9) and was one of six Marines who shared a Quonset hut with him in 1958 (while Lee Oswald was still in Japan). A couple of months after Roussell left MACS 9 (on 3/6/59) his aunt, Rosalee Quinn, visited him in Santa Ana. She was a stewardess for Pan American airlines, had taken a Berlitz course in Russian, and was interested in working for the American Embassy in Moscow. Roussell wanted to introduce his aunt to Oswald and thought a meeting would give her a chance to practice speaking Russian.

One evening Roussell brought Oswald to a boarding house where his aunt was living, introduced her to Oswald, and then left while Miss Quinn and Oswald went to dinner and later to a movie. After conversing in Russian for several hours she thought Oswald spoke Russian very well for someone who had never attended a formal course in the language. 29 (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=448&tab=page)

 

H&L p415
According to Katya Ford it was either George Bouhe or Teofil Meller who found Oswald the job at JCS. After the assassination Peter Paul Gregory told the Secret Service that it was Bouhe who found Oswald the job at JCS. 129 (
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=437&tab=page)

Vada Oswald (Robert Oswald's wife) told her neighbor, Mrs. Penny Pearson, that Lee Harvey Oswald was hired by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall "because he could speak Russian. "130 (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=236&tab=page)

 


H&L p425-425

The party was attended by Lev Aronson, Thomas and Natalie Ray, Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan, George Bouhe, Anna and Teofil Meller, Tatiana Biggers, Samuel Ballen, Lydia Dymitruk, Mr. and Mrs. Charles Harris, George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, and Yaeko Okui. Nearly all of these people were either Russian or married to a former Russian national.of Polish decent.".....
-----

Natalie Ray, one of the party attendees, said, "Oswald was very proud of the fact that he spoke Russian so well." As a native of Russia Natalie said that she was amazed that he had such a good command of the language.169 Other attendees of the party were equally amazed at his proficiency in the Russian language and discussed their thoughts with the Warren Commission:

• Natalie Ray was asked by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, "Did he (Oswald) speak to you in Russian?" Mrs. Ray replied, "Yes; just perfect; really surprised me. .... it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time, you know .... .l said, 'How come you speak so good Russian? I been here so long

and still don't speak very well English."'

• George Bouhe was asked by Liebeler, "Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?" Bouhe replied, "I would say very good."170

• Mrs. Teofil (Anna) Meller was asked by Liebeler, "Do you think that his command of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had spent in Russia?" Mrs. Meller replied, "Yes; absolutely better than I would expect."

• Elena Hall was asked by Liebeler, "In your opinion, Lee did have a good command of the Russian language?" Mrs. Hall replied, "Very good ..... "

• Mrs. Dymitruk was asked by Commission attorney Albert Jenner, "He did speak Russian?" Mrs. Dymitruk replied, "Yes; and I was really surprised-in short time, he spoke nicely."

• George DeMohrenschildt told Jenner, "He loved to speak Russian ..... he spoke fluent Russian ..... he had a remarkable fluency in Russian ..... he preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian."

Peter Gregory told Warren Commission Representative Gerald Ford, "I thought that Lee Oswald spoke (Russian) with a Polish accent, that is why I asked him if he was of Polish decent."

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Many here will recall previous discussion of the January 27, 1964, executive session of

the Warren Commission in which J. Lee Rankin was discussing Marina Oswald as

well as Lee Oswald's knowledge of languages. He said, "In addition to that there is this Spanish dictionary, and the books about Spanish where he was trying to learn Spanish although he had know some Spanish before he went to Russia, and we are trying to run that down to find out what he studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages because she used to make fun of him, according to some of their Russian friends, about his pronunciation of Spanish words, and he was very clumsy at it, and was embarrassed by her making jokes about that."

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On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:34 AM, David Josephs said:

One has to wonder then why he needs Peter Gregory to confirm his abilities..

He never actually USED this recommendation to DO anything... Kinda like LIFE buying Zap's "film" only to lock it away...

The son's father teaches Russian and instead he goes to Marina/Ozzie for lessons and discussion...

Me thinks there's more to these Gregory's than meets the eye...

David, this all gets so deep and confusing.  Any possibility  a one and only LHO, impersonated later,  might have been recruited at a young age by say David Ferrie and in turn encouraged by him or others to learn Russian, study Communism and Marxism?  Given his reported fondness for "I led Three Lives"?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045397/

Philbrick and Philby are similar after all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby

One was Angleton's friend for many years... 

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5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

One also has to wonder how Marina and Marguerite communicated...  One spoke no Russian while the other supposedly spoke no English...  

David, I imagine you've read this before...  Ozzie was supposedly not Marina's first date with an American in Russia???  In Leningrad (?) before she moved to Minsk, a representative of Rand Corporation/defector from who said she spoke to him in "good" English?  I can't remember they guy's name at the moment but don't think it was just a dream.  

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Robert Webster... and he was working his angle to also get any info on the economy... that Marina also approached him Was amazing and hard not to see how the KGB would try to get friendlies into our country too....

So..

Any possibility?  

In this case?

{grin}

so, who goes to Russia? I believe the one who went was smarter than Lee by quite a bit, was getting info about Russia and working for Angleton via Phillips.

Lee punched a sarge, shot himself, got VD....   it is very hard for me to believe the real Lee learning Russian... he was a good old southern boy... maybe Ruby even kept an eye in him... idk   

So sorry for staying the course... two different people, as I see it

........ 

Again, photo at bottom middle,1959 passport... last of Lee Oswald I’m aware of....

813255003_Oswald-Harveysquareshoulders-LEEdroppedshoulders-moreexamplesincollage.thumb.jpg.18272493737ada97d59209feb400311b.jpg

 

 

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On 8/20/2018 at 3:38 PM, David Josephs said:

No matter who I read it seems they can state that it MAY not have been Oswald down there, yet continue the argument as if it HAD to be Oswald...  (e.g. the testimony about Oswald pitching a fit at the Cuban Embassy...  to get remembered...  except - it wasn't Oswald who was in Dallas with 2 Hispanic looking men visiting Odio and tooling around Dallas

So your thought may be interesting yet there are numerous people here in the US after 1962 who are aware of his Russian language proficiency..

One also has to wonder how Marina and Marguerite communicated...  One spoke no Russian while the other supposedly spoke no English...  :secret
 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11472#relPageId=2&tab=page 

img_11472_2_300.png

 

H&L p.226
Henry Roussell, Jr. served with Harvey Oswald for 3 or 4 months in MACS 9 at Santa Ana (MACS 9) and was one of six Marines who shared a Quonset hut with him in 1958 (while Lee Oswald was still in Japan). A couple of months after Roussell left MACS 9 (on 3/6/59) his aunt, Rosalee Quinn, visited him in Santa Ana. She was a stewardess for Pan American airlines, had taken a Berlitz course in Russian, and was interested in working for the American Embassy in Moscow. Roussell wanted to introduce his aunt to Oswald and thought a meeting would give her a chance to practice speaking Russian.

One evening Roussell brought Oswald to a boarding house where his aunt was living, introduced her to Oswald, and then left while Miss Quinn and Oswald went to dinner and later to a movie. After conversing in Russian for several hours she thought Oswald spoke Russian very well for someone who had never attended a formal course in the language. 29 (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=448&tab=page)

 

H&L p415
According to Katya Ford it was either George Bouhe or Teofil Meller who found Oswald the job at JCS. After the assassination Peter Paul Gregory told the Secret Service that it was Bouhe who found Oswald the job at JCS. 129 (
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=437&tab=page)

Vada Oswald (Robert Oswald's wife) told her neighbor, Mrs. Penny Pearson, that Lee Harvey Oswald was hired by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall "because he could speak Russian. "130 (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=236&tab=page)

 


H&L p425-425

The party was attended by Lev Aronson, Thomas and Natalie Ray, Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan, George Bouhe, Anna and Teofil Meller, Tatiana Biggers, Samuel Ballen, Lydia Dymitruk, Mr. and Mrs. Charles Harris, George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, and Yaeko Okui. Nearly all of these people were either Russian or married to a former Russian national.of Polish decent.".....
-----

Natalie Ray, one of the party attendees, said, "Oswald was very proud of the fact that he spoke Russian so well." As a native of Russia Natalie said that she was amazed that he had such a good command of the language.169 Other attendees of the party were equally amazed at his proficiency in the Russian language and discussed their thoughts with the Warren Commission:

• Natalie Ray was asked by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, "Did he (Oswald) speak to you in Russian?" Mrs. Ray replied, "Yes; just perfect; really surprised me. .... it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time, you know .... .l said, 'How come you speak so good Russian? I been here so long

and still don't speak very well English."'

• George Bouhe was asked by Liebeler, "Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?" Bouhe replied, "I would say very good."170

• Mrs. Teofil (Anna) Meller was asked by Liebeler, "Do you think that his command of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had spent in Russia?" Mrs. Meller replied, "Yes; absolutely better than I would expect."

• Elena Hall was asked by Liebeler, "In your opinion, Lee did have a good command of the Russian language?" Mrs. Hall replied, "Very good ..... "

• Mrs. Dymitruk was asked by Commission attorney Albert Jenner, "He did speak Russian?" Mrs. Dymitruk replied, "Yes; and I was really surprised-in short time, he spoke nicely."

• George DeMohrenschildt told Jenner, "He loved to speak Russian ..... he spoke fluent Russian ..... he had a remarkable fluency in Russian ..... he preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian."

Peter Gregory told Warren Commission Representative Gerald Ford, "I thought that Lee Oswald spoke (Russian) with a Polish accent, that is why I asked him if he was of Polish decent."

Thanks for the response David. I have to digest all this. As for your interesting language question regarding Marina and Marguerite....I take it you believe Marina knew English well enough to converse?

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