Ice bullets

[Paul Brancato]

  Cliff - if the frontal throat shot wizzed past Connolly’s left ear where does that put the shooter?

[Ron Bulman]

51 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

22 hollow point from the front.  No exit when shooting a rabbit, squirrel, or human throat.  Bullet mushrooms and shards disperse from the edges.  Shuts him up regarding what happens next.  Pre autopsy x-ray. Pre autopsy surgery to remove bullet and fragments from entry wound and ensuing tracheostomy (along with other bullets/fragments elsewhere?).  Open his eyes back up, somehow, the Priest in Dallas said they were closed.  Bingo, you have the death stare photo with the butchered throat.

Still wish Bob Prudhome was around to analyze the ballistics.  I trusted his judgement. 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=ice+ice+baby&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=3b877d7d4d7d4d2fbc7be1e9f071e5c5&sp=1&qs=ONR&pq=ice+ice&sc=8-7&cvid=3b877d7d4d7d4d2fbc7be1e9f071e5c5

[Cliff Varnell]

12 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Never noticed the left hand pulling the tie. 

I agree with Gil's analysis that JFK was grabbing at the tie with his left forefinger. 

Then the finger stiffens.

Civilians working for the US Army Special Operations Division developed paralytics to silence guard dogs -- took two seconds to take effect.

That's about how long it took JFK to act paralyzed.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Cliff Varnell

[Mathias Baumann]

18 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

 Bennett said he was looking to the front when he heard the first shot; the Willis 5 (Z202) photo shows him facing to the right in the follow-up car.  He said he then turned to look at "the Boss"; Altgens 6 (Z255) shows his features blurred, consistent with movement.  He said he saw JFK hit in the back "four inches down from the shoulder"; the bullet defects in JFK's clothes are four inches below the collars.  The back shot occurred right before the head shot, Bennett stated.

Did he really HEAR the back shot or did he just SEE the impact of the bullet on Kennedy's back?

If you look at the bystanders in Altgens 6 none of them seems startled by the sound of a high-powered rifle being fired. Some of them are still smiling.

[Michael Cross]

16 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I agree with Gil's analysis that JFK was grabbing at the tie with his left forefinger. 

Then the finger stiffens.

Civilians working for the US Army Special Operations Division developed paralytics to silence guard dogs -- took two seconds to take effect.

That's about how long it took JFK to act paralyzed.

He may indeed be grabbing at his tie, but from the blurred images how, again, can anyone be certain?  We need much better resolution to talk about individual fingers.  I'm inclined to agree with Gil's theory overall.  I don't think there's a good understanding of when the shot occured.  For JFK to be reacting AT ALL, the bullet hit him several frames earlier at 18 FPS.  

I would argue he's reacting at 225, and more clearly at 226.  This is the very beginning of his hands moving up, but they're moving.  Which makes the bullet impact several frames earlier IMO.

226:

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, Michael Cross said:

He may indeed be grabbing at his tie, but from the blurred images how, again, can anyone be certain?

Certain of what?

Who in the world is going to react to a shot in the back by putting their hands in front of their throat?

It seems to me folks engage in witness bashing when Glenn Bennett's notes are ignored, and the testimony of close proximity witnesses are ignored.

From the WC testimony of close proximity witness Linda Willis:

<quote on>

Mr. Liebler: Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade came past you there?

Miss Willis: Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.

<quote off>

From the WC testimony of close proximity witness Nellie Connally:

<quote>

Mrs. Connally:...I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. Specter: And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. Connally: Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry.  I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

<quote off>

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Did he really HEAR the back shot or did he just SEE the impact of the bullet on Kennedy's back?

From Bennett's contemporaneous notes:

(quote on)

...The Presidents auto moved down a slight grade and the crowd was very sparse.  At this point I heard a noise that immediately reminded of a firecracker. Immediately upon hearing the so called firecracker, looked at the Boss's car. At this exact time I saw a shot that hit the Boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder; a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the Boss's head.

(quote off)

Quote

If you look at the bystanders in Altgens 6 none of them seems startled by the sound of a high-powered rifle being fired. Some of them are still smiling.

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

16 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

  Cliff - if the frontal throat shot wizzed past Connolly’s left ear where does that put the shooter?

Is that what happened?

[Paul Brancato]

14 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Is that what happened?

Referring to the photo analysis by Gil. Connolly reacted to the shot that whizzed past him and entered JFK’s throat. Looked like it was to Connolly’s left. Did you see it differently? I think he was implying that the bullet went through the windshield first.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Paul Brancato

[Cliff Varnell]

5 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Referring to the photo analysis by Gil. Connolly reacted to the shot that whizzed past him and entered JFK’s throat. Looked like it was to Connolly’s left. Did you see it differently? I think he was implying that the bullet went through the windshield first.

I always found that part of Gil's analysis highly speculative.

I'd personally speculate that Black Dog Man fired the shot, which then deflected down and to the right.

[B. A. Copeland]

On 9/23/2018 at 5:56 AM, Mathias Baumann said:

Shellfish toxin can cause what is called paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP).

Could that explain Kennedy's grasping at his throat?

I never believed he grabbed his throat as seen in the z-film. It looks like his body simply reacted from probably a hit to either the neck or the back. This of course is my non-professional/medical opinion. I have also always wondered if that back brace played a role in his physical reaction.

Edited September 25, 2018 by B. A. Copeland

[Michael Cross]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Certain of what?

Who in the world is going to react to a shot in the back by putting their hands in front of their throat?

It seems to me folks engage in witness bashing when Glenn Bennett's notes are ignored, and the testimony of close proximity witnesses are ignored.

From the WC testimony of close proximity witness Linda Willis:

<quote on>

Mr. Liebler: Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade came past you there?

Miss Willis: Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.

<quote off>

From the WC testimony of close proximity witness Nellie Connally:

<quote>

Mrs. Connally:...I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. Specter: And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. Connally: Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry.  I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

<quote off>

 

Certain that he's grabbing his tie.  Or extending a finger.  If you read my response I said I was inclined to agree with Gil's hypothesis, but that the idea you can see WITH CERTAINTY what JFK's hands, let alone individual fingers are doing is nonsense.  At least in the images on this thread.

[Cliff Varnell]

 

3 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

I never believed he grabbed his throat as seen in the z-film. It looks like his body simply reacted from probably a hit to either the neck or the back. This of course is my non-professional/medical opinion. I have also always wondered if that back brace played a role in his physical reaction.

Ever been hit in the back?

If you have I seriously doubt you brought your hands up in the vicinity of your throat.

No doubt you'd arch your back and throw your head back.

Check out hit-by-pitch vids on Youtube.

Why would a back brace around his waist cause his hands to raise to the level of his throat?

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Michael Cross said:

Certain that he's grabbing his tie.  Or extending a finger.  If you read my response I said I was inclined to agree with Gil's hypothesis, but that the idea you can see WITH CERTAINTY what JFK's hands, let alone individual fingers are doing is nonsense.  At least in the images on this thread.

On what basis do you impeach the eye witness testimony of Glenn Bennett, Nellie Connally, and Linda Willis?

We're into "implied witness bashing" territory here...

[Cliff Varnell]

This is the Willis 5 photo (Z202). 

Phil Willis stated that he took this picture while startled by a shot.  SS SA Glenn Bennett is on the far right, seated facing to the right.  He wasn't looking at Kennedy at the time of the first shot.

And yet he accurately described the location of the back wound in contemporaneous notes; "four inches down from the right shoulder".

The back shot couldn't have been the first shot unless you assert that Bennett made it all up and had a lucky guess on the back wound location.

Gratuitous witness bashing in my book.

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Cliff Varnell