Hole in floor of Limo

[Micah Mileto]

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57753&relPageId=25

Anybody have this clipping from the 12/30/1963 U.S. News and World Report?

[Evan Marshall]

The mere fact that they admit to finding additional bullet fragments is a severe indictment of any search done.

[Micah Mileto]

7 minutes ago, Evan Marshall said:

The mere fact that they admit to finding additional bullet fragments is a severe indictment of any search done.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305165

 

Is this what that's referring to?

[Michael Cross]

3 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305165

 

Is this what that's referring to?

Says three, shows two.  Nothing about this case is what it seems.

 

[Micah Mileto]

39 minutes ago, Michael Cross said:

Says three, shows two.  Nothing about this case is what it seems.

 

That would really be crazy if there were 2 instead of 3.

 

 

 

 

 

[Micah Mileto]

http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/fragments/fragphotos.html

CE 840 fragments from limo, Warren Commission Evidence:

 

CE 840 in evidence today (missing 1 fragment):

 

photo of 2 fragments found from underneath the left jump seat. Note: The FBI originally recovered three particles. In 1970, an independent researcher brought to the attention of the National Archives that one of the three fragments was missing. The Archives has been unable to locate it.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Micah Mileto

[Lawrence Schnapf]

the fragments identifed as CE 840 were collected from the limo after it was returned to the WH (late friday nite/early sat morning) The two fragments referred to in the above memo refer to ADDITIONAL fragments discovered when the limo was sent to Detroit in December. two entirely different events. 

[Micah Mileto]

7 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

the fragments identifed as CE 840 were collected from the limo after it was returned to the WH (late friday nite/early sat morning) The two fragments referred to in the above memo refer to ADDITIONAL fragments discovered when the limo was sent to Detroit in December. two entirely different events. 

Do you mean CE 567 (nose) and CE 569 (base)?

[Evan Marshall]

The "fragment" on the right looks like a cross section of a .22 long rifle solid.

And three shots does not meet my definition as a flurry!

Edited March 27, 2019 by Evan Marshall

[David Boylan]

Evan,

Any additional info on a .22 long? What rifle would typically use this? Can it be used with a silencer?

[Ron Bulman]

42 minutes ago, David Boylan said:

Evan,

Any additional info on a .22 long? What rifle would typically use this? Can it be used with a silencer?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=22+rifle+silencer&view=detail&mid=C7A2335DACCA7A757378C7A2335DACCA7A757378&FORM=VIRE

[Evan Marshall]

a .22 short and .22 long can be fired in a rifle chambere for .22 long rifle though the longs and shorts would probably not  be powerful enough to function a semiautomatic rifle designed for .22 long rifle. When I worked for Israeli Military Industries and was in Israel they showed me a small UZI submachine gun chambered in .22 long rifle and suppresed. The loudest noise created by this gun was when the empty case hit the floor.

[Pat Speer]

From patspeer.com, Chapter 1b:

 

 A 12-30-63 U.S. News and World Report article presented yet another shooting scenario to the public. This scenario was similar to the FBI's scenario, but with a twist. It detailed "The first struck President Kennedy in the back, just below the collar bone, and lodged in his body. The second shot struck Governor Connally and fragmented. Bullets hitting bone can splinter. A splinter from this bullet apparently hit the windshield of the car. Another splinter could have penetrated the floor pan. The third bullet struck President Kennedy in the back of the head, causing death. This bullet also fragmented somewhat." Well, where did they get this bit about the hole in the floor pan? Did someone tell the writer there was such a hole? One might think the FBI would want to know.

Or not. Sadly, a 1-6-64 memo from the FBI's Alex Rosen on the article declared "There appears to be little significance to the alleged location of this hole in the President's limousine at this time; however, since this item appears in a magazine with a nationwide distribution it is possible questions may be raised by the President's Commission concerning this. Therefore, it is felt we should be in a position to promptly answer any such inquiry." Rosen was clearly not one easily stirred.

But President Johnson was one easily shaken... That night, Rufus Youngblood, the Secret Service agent who'd protected Lyndon Johnson on the day of the shooting, received a most unusual phone call. It was from Johnson, who was extremely angry about a memo he'd received, written by a former Kennedy staffer. This memo made reference to an article in Sports Illustrated describing one of Johnson's frequent disagreements with his bodyguards. (The name of this staffer is unknown, as the memo from which Johnson was reading has never been located.) Johnson told Youngblood: "I've received a memorandum that disturbs me, Rufus. I'll read you some of it. 'I'm alarmed at the situation that has developed between the President and the Secret Service. Morale in the Secret Service is at an all-time low. A number of the members of the White House detail are asking for transfers. This is a great body of men. These men feel they are being prevented from doing their job properly. These men do not want favors; they just want to be accepted. We need them badly, especially in campaign years. They must feel the President appreciates their efforts. If they do something wrong, they do not want to be reprimanded in public over a radio system which lots of people listen to. The attachment this week from Sports Illustrated is an example. I'll do anything you think proper.' Johnson then continued "I just told Rowley (i.e., Secret Service Director James Rowley) to call all of them in and to take any of 'em's resignations that wanted to. And I'd be glad to have his, if he wants it, or yours or anybody else's. And if they don't want to handle it, well, we'll get the FBI to do it." Johnson then complained about Secret Service agents following his car too closely when he went for rides on his ranch. He then urged: "So you get ahold of Rowley and you all call a meeting of your group and (decide) whatever you decide you want to do; and if you want to resign, I'll be glad to accept it forthwith. And if the Secret Service wants to go back to counterfeiting, they can go back to counterfeiting, then I'll get the FBI to just assign me a couple of men to stay by my side without all this God damn big push! I don't know who it is bellyaching. First I heard of it. I'm sorry it didn't come to me. It had to come through some of Kennedy's staffers." Youngblood then asked who wrote the memo. Johnson responded "I don't think I ought to do that, but one of Kennedy's top people and somebody has been bellyaching to him. And there's enough truth in it (to see) that somebody talked. And I can't have disloyalty, and I can't talk in front of your people and have them repeat it." Youngblood then responded: "You're absolutely right. You cannot have disloyalty and I don't want any transfer, reassignment, or any other damned thing, sir." Johnson then returned to complaining about agents driving too close to his car. He then repeated his threat: "So you find out whose morale is low and get rid of the son of a bitch. And if the whole Secret Service is low, I'll tell Dillon (i.e., Secretary of the Treasury Douglas Dillon--Rowley's boss) the first thing in the morning that we'll just change the damned law in about five minutes and turn it over to the FBI because Hoover thinks that I could be handled a lot better anyway. I don't want any of it. I think now's a good time, after Dallas, to make the change, if they want to do it. Now I thought I did pretty well after Dallas and I thought I reflected credit on the Secret Service. I did my damnedest to compliment you and everybody else. But if the appreciation I get is going to be articles like this--Kennedy people coming in and telling me that the morale is the lowest in the history--I'm not going to be run by them, you know that." He then repeated: "You get ahold of Rowley and y'all see who the hell has been bellyaching and get it straightened out. Take their resignations, get them out of here, and get Lem Johns back and you and Lem Johns handle me. You handle me safer than the forty can, 'cause they're liabilities instead of assets. And if y'all don't want to do it, just honestly say so and I'll get you a good reassignment and I'll get Hoover to send me over a couple of 21-year-old accountants over here and they'll probably do as good a job." Youngblood then said "We'll stick with you, sir." Johnson then finished "Okay, but I want something done about it, you understand? Good night, Rufus."

 

 

(Note: the transcript presented above was constructed from two sources: Rufus Youngblood's 1973 book 20 Years in the Secret Service, and Michael Beschloss' 1997 book on the Johnson Tapes, Taking Charge. I then compared this transcript against the actual tape available on the Miller Center's website, in anticipation that major corrections were in order. This proved most surprising. The direct quotes in Youngblood's account of the conversation that were not in Beschloss' transcript were nevertheless a near-perfect match for the words on the tape of the conversation. Clearly, Youngblood--or his ghost writer, Richard Hardwick--had been granted access to the tapes...years before the public had been told of their existence. And that wasn't all. The words in bold were in Youngblood's book but not on Beschloss' transcript or the Miller Center's tape. This suggests either that Youngblood and Hardwick made these lines up or that the tapes on the Miller Center's website have been edited since 1973--when Youngblood was writing his book.)

In any event, after chewing out Youngblood, Johnson called up Youngblood's boss, Secret Service Director James Rowley, and repeated his threat of shutting down the service's Presidential Protection Division if they didn't fall in line. 

Not surprisingly, in light of this threat, when on the next day the FBI called Robert Bouck, the head of the Protective Research Section of the Presidential Protection Division, and asked him if a hole was discovered in the floor of the limousine, they were told there was no such hole. This marked the beginning and end of the FBI's investigation. While it could very well be that there really was no bullet hole in the floor of the limousine, Johnson's calling the Director of the Secret Service James Rowley the night before this call--and his threatening the jobs of every member of the Presidential Protection Division if they didn't get wise and help protect him from the criticisms of Kennedy loyalists--undoubtedly muddied the waters.