Marina and Neely St.

[Steve Thomas]

I have found 4 instances of Marina Oswald either testifying to or insinuating that the Oswalds were living on Neely St. in January, 1963.

(1) Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? (From Fort Worth to Elsbeth)
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3^rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12^th.

 

(2) Two weeks later, Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address in the beginning of January, 1963 and that he had been cleaning the rifle that same day.

CD 735 page 441

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11133#relPageId=450&tab=page

At the bottom of CD 735, there is the handwritten notation “CE 1156”.

This interview was conducted by FBI Agents, Anatole Buguslav and Wallace Heitman.

 

(CE 1156 Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII p. 197).

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227&tab=page

CE 1156 is confusing because it includes this information in an interview the FBI conducted of Marina on January 29 1964 and dated February 1, 1964.

This January 29^th interview was conducted by FBI Agents, Richard Wiehl and Wallace Heitman.

But

On February 18, 1964 the FBI agents went back to Marina at the offices of her attorney, and said, “Uh, we’ve got a problem. You told us yesterday that you saw Lee cleaning his rifle in January, but he didn’t buy it until March”.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815

 

On February 18, 1964 she told the FBI that she was mistaken on February 17^th about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had really taken place in March, 1963.

That suggests three possibilities:

a) she was genuinely mistaken about the date; or,

b) the FBI caught her in a lie and confronted her; or,

c) that since her statement of the 17^th was already part of the official record, the FBI went back to her and helped her coordinate her story to set the record straight.

 

(3) Marina told the WC that she first met Ruth Paine at a party in January, but the party didn’t take place until February 22, 1963

 

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street.
Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth?
Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance.

 

(4) Here is the translation of CE993, Marina's Narrative of life with Lee:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=610&tab=page

 

I started reading this narrative, and was immediately struck by how similar it is in linguistic style to Oswald's Daily Diary. Read his entry for October 21st, when he attempts "suicide" to the sound of violins playing. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_24.pdf

 

One other thing struck me. On pp. 626-627, she writes of moving to Neely St. after New Years, and then writes of meeting Ruth Paine.

Officially, she met Ruth on February 22nd, prior to her Neely St. move.

Is Marina once again putting herself on Neely St. in January, when they didn't actually move there until March?

 

Ruth Paine's testimony before the WC:

Mr. JENNER - Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE - No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER - I will get to that in a moment.

Mr. JENNER - You met Marina for the first time when.
Mrs. PAINE - I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of February of 1963.

Mr. JENNER - Now would you please relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963.
Mrs. PAINE - I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I Judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar.

Mrs. PAINE - It was Friday evening.
Mr. JENNER - Friday evening?
Mrs. PAINE - The 22d was Friday

 

It's a puzzle.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

She does not even recall when they moved to Neely?

And this is in February of 1964.

[Steve Thomas]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

She does not even recall when they moved to Neely?

And this is in February of 1964.

Jim,

I'd chalk it up to a hazy memory, but she said the same thing to two different federal agencies just two weeks apart.

Makes you go, hmmmm...

 

Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

I could see her getting it wrong once, but twice?

[Pamela Brown]

I could see a motive for her messing up the time she first saw LHO with the rifle, but the other lapses just seem due to a hazy memory.  Of course, with Marina, who knows? 

[Steve Thomas]

I'll just add this:

In her HSCA testimony, Marina couldn't remember the first time she saw the rifle.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

 

Marina's HSCA testimony

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

 

When do you first recall seeing Lee with a rifle in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. I cannot pinpoint exact month, you know, date of any kind.

Mr. McDONALD. Where did you first see it?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember where or when, but I can say that Lee did have a rifle during life in the United States.

Mr. McDONALD. When you refer to the "closet," what apartment are you referring to? At what apartment are we talking about?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall any apartment, but maybe one in Dallas.
Mr. McDONALD. The one on Neely Street?
Mrs. PORTER. Neely Street; yes.

Mr. McDONALD. Did you ask him where he obtained this rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't.

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

In the Spring of 1963, it was Marina who James Hosty was tracking. Did he think she was another Lydia Dimytruk?

Lydia Dimytruk is Kleinlerer's girlfriend. (Alexander Kleinlerer visited Marina When she was living with Elena Hall in the Fall of 1962. He helped load the U-Haul trailer to move the Oswalds from Fort Worth to Elsbeth St. in Dallas.

For more information on Lydia Dimytruk, see: (she is a piece of work!)

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20More%20Referrals/105-82555%20More%20Referrals%203-04.pdf

pp. 13-33, Suspected of being a Russian spy. Formerly married to Vasily Kostenko, also suspected of being a Russian spy.

She marries Pavel Dimytruk in 1956. Emigrates to the U.S. In 1959 and divorces him in 1960.

Sound familiar?

 

James Hosty told the WC:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hosty.htm

Mr. STERN. Did you take over from Agent Fain or in some other way?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I did not take over directly. When Agent Fain retired directly from the Bureau he had closed the case. He had a case which we call a pending inactive case on Mrs. Marina Oswald. This case I did take over. It was in what we call a pending inactive status, that is, nothing was to be done for a period of 6 months. Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her.
I might add that it is the practice of the FBI to interview immigrants from behind the Iron Curtain on a selective basis, and she was so selected to be one of these persons to be interviewed.
Mr. STERN. When was this?
Mr. HOSTY. This was March 4, 1963, when I began my inquiry as to her present whereabouts. I determined on March 4, 1963, through the Immigration and Naturalization Service records that she had moved from Fort Worth to the Dallas area. She was living on a street called Elsbeth Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.
Mr. STERN. What happened in connection with the case of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. HOSTY. This case was closed at this time. It was closed.
On March 11, 1963, I made inquiry at this Elsbeth address, and determined from the landlady, I believe her name was Mrs. Tobias, that she had just evicted Lee and Marina Oswald from her apartment building because of their alleged fighting and his alleged drinking. They caused a disturbance and she had asked him to leave on March 3, 1963. She told me they had moved a short distance away. She didn't know where. On that same date, I was able to determine from the postal authorities that they had changed their address to 214 Neely Street, also in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.
On the 14th of March, I verified that Oswalds were residing at this address when I found the mailbox with the name of Lee and Marina Oswald at this address, 214 Neely Street.

 

Did the apartment house at 214 Neely have mailboxes?

Would the Oswalds have a mailbox with their name on it if LHO was getting mail at a PO Box?
 

The only record I have found is the original application for P.O. Box 2915 in October, 1962 where Lee lists 3519 “Fairimore Av” as his home address. (I think he meant to write 3519 Fairmount – Gary Taylor’s address). There is no change of address card in Volume 20 of the Hearings and Exhibits

(20H176). https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1137

Was it never entered into evidence?

Is James Hosty lying?

Is he getting his info from somewhere else?

A Record from Mary's Database

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/marysdb.php?id=7651

 

Record:

POST OFFICE BOXES

Sources:

-----

Mary's
Comments:

LHO - P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, rented October 9, 1962, closed May 1963 (WC Vol 20, p. 176); LHO - P.O. Box 6225, Dallas, rented Nov 1, 1963 (WC Vol 22, pp. 185, 291);

 

Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

Steve asked "Did the apartment house at 214. Neely have mailboxes?"

As of June of 2014, it sure did. Also, it appears that these mailboxes (vertical and black to the left of the doors to 212 and 214 W. Neely) in 2014 are identical to the mailboxes in this picture from (1963?)

https://srhistorical.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/neely-house-oswald-20141.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KVIzzXiMlo4/U5n5MTYf5tI/AAAAAAABGys/upz32GeQ9fw/s1600/Screen+Shot+2014-06-12+at+9.01.25+PM.png

[Steve Thomas]

40 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Steve asked "Did the apartment house at 214. Neely have mailboxes?"

As of June of 2014, it sure did. Also, it appears that these mailboxes (vertical and black to the left of the doors to 212 and 214 W. Neely) in 2014 are identical to the mailboxes in this picture from (1963?)

https://srhistorical.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/neely-house-oswald-20141.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KVIzzXiMlo4/U5n5MTYf5tI/AAAAAAABGys/upz32GeQ9fw/s1600/Screen+Shot+2014-06-12+at+9.01.25+PM.png

Paul,

 

Thanks. That answers a question I've had in my mind for a long time.

 

Steve Thomas

[Joe Bauer]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I'll just add this:

In her HSCA testimony, Marina couldn't remember the first time she saw the rifle.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

 

Marina's HSCA testimony

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

 

When do you first recall seeing Lee with a rifle in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. I cannot pinpoint exact month, you know, date of any kind.

Mr. McDONALD. Where did you first see it?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember where or when, but I can say that Lee did have a rifle during life in the United States.

Mr. McDONALD. When you refer to the "closet," what apartment are you referring to? At what apartment are we talking about?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall any apartment, but maybe one in Dallas.
Mr. McDONALD. The one on Neely Street?
Mrs. PORTER. Neely Street; yes.

Mr. McDONALD. Did you ask him where he obtained this rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't.

 

Steve Thomas

One would think that Marina would have a better recollection of when she first realized Lee had purchased a rifle and when see first saw Lee with it. 

Why?   

Several universally young mother shared reasons including family need diverting cost.

If Lee had just produced a previously unannounced purchase camera, radio or fishing pole one could see Marina perhaps not remembering even a general time period of first seeing such innocuous items, but even something that innocent would probably still initiate a "where'd you get the money for that when Junie needs shoes or doesn't have a crib?"

But instantly seeing a high powered rifle in your small living space midst would be at least a little scary shocking and surely elicit a much more concerned response from a young mother imo.

More concern than just the frivolous diversion of family need funds.

"Uh, Lee , why do you need a gun...and such a big gun?"

And "why did you not consult me about this?"

And knowing Marina's at times sarcastic wit - "What are you going to do with this ...shoot us some rabbits to help with our food needs?" "

"This is not a toy." "Why did you buy this?'

You'd think Marina would feel very uncomfortable with such a potentially dangerous weapon anywhere near her baby.

And to see her husband cleaning and mock aiming of his new gun in his spare home time must have made Marina at least wonder where this previously unseen interest of Lee's came from if he had never shown this in the years she had known Lee previously?

I think Marina was purposely very vague about her first awareness of the rifle and her reactions to Lee's acquiring it to protect herself from any potential self incrimination and culpability on her part.

How much did Marina personally protest Lee's frivolous purchase of such a potentially deadly weapon or asked Lee about his motivations in acquiring something so scary and illogically unnecessary relative to their family's basic and normal needs?

And when Lee first told Marina of his using this rifle to actually shoot at and trying to kill someone, even understanding Marina's unique situation of knowing no one who she could trust to reveal such craziness and her fear of what might happen to her and June if she went to the authorities, any half way intelligent young mother ( and Marina was very intelligent ) would have freaked out at such an action by her husband and been in huge fear of the consequences if Lee was caught.

They would instantly start thinking of ways to get away from such a violent person...in my opinion anyway.

Maybe Marina was doing and thinking all of these things. Her situation was impossibly compromised by her isolation from anyone she could trust enough to really help her in any significant way.

Maybe she went to bed every night hoping that this craziness on Lee's part was just a one time thing? We do know that Marina was experiencing deep level depression that culminated in her trying to kill herself during her time with Lee in Texas, no matter how feeble this attempt was.

 

[Steve Thomas]

The HSCA was 14 years after the fact.

 

Back in 1964...

"Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read---where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think---I saw some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in the room.
Mr. RANKIN. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have the scope on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it did not have a scope on it.

 

Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald, 1964

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

 

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read---where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think---I saw some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in the room.
Mr. RANKIN. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have the scope on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it did not have a scope on it.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing the rifle when the telescopic lens was on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I hadn't paid any attention initially.
I know a rifle was a rifle. I didn't know whether or not it had a telescope attached to it. But the first time I remember seeing it was in New Orleans, where I recognized the telescope. But probably the telescope was on before. I simply hadn't paid attention.
I hope you understand. When I saw it, I thought that all rifles have that.

 

I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it."

 

So, let me see if I've got this straight.

Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased.

She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, but then later told them that she was mistaken and that the cleaning had taken place in March.

It was kept out in the open, but maybe he kept it outside.

She never actually saw him take the rifle away from the apartment and never talks about seeing him bring it back.

Lee took the rifle on Sunday, but the shooting (Walker) wasn't until Wednesday. Where was the rifle in the meantime?

She said that Lee had told her her buried the rifle after the shooting. When did he go back and dig it up?

When she saw the rifle, it didn't have a scope on it, but knew it had a scope because she recognized it.

I read that Love Field is something like six miles from where they lived on Neely St., so he would have had to have taken the bus, unless someone was giving him rides – all the time while he working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Lee was riding a bus for six miles with a rifle, several times.

 

Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

Ha, Steve.  Top this off with when Ruth Paine moved Marina back from New Orleans in the summer of 63 she didn't remember loading, observing, transporting or unloading a rifle when they got back to her garage in Irving.  Neither did Michael who happened by to help with the unloading.  From memory of WC testimony when they were asked about it.

Ruth said Lee told her he hitch hiked from New Orleans to Dallas.  Guess he just threw the strap over his shoulder, stuck his thumb out and somebody picked him up.  Sounds logical, right.....?

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

One would think that Marina would have a better recollection of when she first realized Lee had purchased a rifle and when see first saw Lee with it. 

Why?   

Several universally young mother shared reasons including family need diverting cost.

If Lee had just produced a previously unannounced purchase camera, radio or fishing pole one could see Marina perhaps not remembering even a general time period of first seeing such innocuous items, but even something that innocent would probably still initiate a "where'd you get the money for that when Junie needs shoes or doesn't have a crib?"

But instantly seeing a high powered rifle in your small living space midst would be at least a little scary shocking and surely elicit a much more concerned response from a young mother imo.

More concern than just the frivolous diversion of family need funds.

"Uh, Lee , why do you need a gun...and such a big gun?"

And "why did you not consult me about this?"

And knowing Marina's at times sarcastic wit - "What are you going to do with this ...shoot us some rabbits to help with our food needs?" "

"This is not a toy." "Why did you buy this?'

You'd think Marina would feel very uncomfortable with such a potentially dangerous weapon anywhere near her baby.

And to see her husband cleaning and mock aiming of his new gun in his spare home time must have made Marina at least wonder where this previously unseen interest of Lee's came from if he had never shown this in the years she had known Lee previously?

I think Marina was purposely very vague about her first awareness of the rifle and her reactions to Lee's acquiring it to protect herself from any potential self incrimination and culpability on her part.

How much did Marina personally protest Lee's frivolous purchase of such a potentially deadly weapon or asked Lee about his motivations in acquiring something so scary and illogically unnecessary relative to their family's basic and normal needs?

And when Lee first told Marina of his using this rifle to actually shoot at and trying to kill someone, even understanding Marina's unique situation of knowing no one who she could trust to reveal such craziness and her fear of what might happen to her and June if she went to the authorities, any half way intelligent young mother ( and Marina was very intelligent ) would have freaked out at such an action by her husband and been in huge fear of the consequences if Lee was caught.

They would instantly start thinking of ways to get away from such a violent person...in my opinion anyway.

Maybe Marina was doing and thinking all of these things. Her situation was impossibly compromised by her isolation from anyone she could trust enough to really help her in any significant way.

Maybe she went to bed every night hoping that this craziness on Lee's part was just a one time thing? We do know that Marina was experiencing deep level depression that culminated in her trying to kill herself during her time with Lee in Texas, no matter how feeble this attempt was.

 

Joe,

Here is the Occam's Razor answer:

Marina lied her eyes out about the rifle.

"Oswald" neither owned nor possessed any rifle. 

He never ordered one, he never bought one, he never paid for one, he never handled one after the Marine Corps and he never had one of his own.

He was framed.

[David Von Pein]

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Marina lied her eyes out about the rifle.

"Oswald" neither owned nor possessed any rifle.

He never ordered one, he never bought one, he never paid for one, he never handled one after the Marine Corps and he never had one of his own.

He was framed.

And that would mean that Jeanne DeMohrenschildt lied her eyes out too (at 9 H 315)....

JEANNE DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"

MR. JENNER -- "You say..."

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "A rifle."

MR. JENNER -- "A rifle, in the closet?"

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything."

MR. JENNER -- "Standing up on its butt?"

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "Yes."

MR. JENNER -- "I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw?"

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "It looks very much like it."


 

Edited July 17, 2019 by David Von Pein

[Paul Jolliffe]

6 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And that would mean that Jeanne DeMohrenschildt lied her eyes out too....

JEANNE DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"

MR. JENNER -- "You say..."

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "A rifle."

MR. JENNER -- "A rifle, in the closet?"

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything."

MR. JENNER -- "Standing up on its butt?"

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "Yes."

MR. JENNER -- "I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw?"

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "It looks very much like it."


 

We agree!

Jeanne DeMohrenschildt lied!