Ruby and the Western Union

[Ron Ecker]

7 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ron:

Is this you bughliose moment?

Do you really think this was the first time he ever sued Western Union?

I have no idea how often he used it. I don't think I ever used it myself. I've seen people send telegrams in the movies.

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Joe,

I might be wrong, but I think Little Lynn was living in Fort Worth at the time. I'd have to back and look.

 

If you look these guys up in the Mary Ferrell Foundation, you should be able to read their FBI statements.

At 10:00 Ruby was supposed to still be in bed.

John Smith, video reporter for WBAP-TV saw Ruby at about 8:00 AM on 11/24 standing on the Commerce St. sidewalk. WBAB-TV truck parked on Commerce St. about 25' from the basement ramp. Smith spoke to Ruby. Saw him again about 10:00 AM next to the ramp. Ruby looked like a person who was "just killing time."

Ira Walker, employee WBAB-TV saw Ruby between 7:30 and 8:00 AM near WBAB-TV truck. Walker said he first saw Ruby shortly after the armored truck was backed into the basement of the Police Department. Ruby came up to the WBAP-TV truck and asked if Oswald had been brought down yet. Walker told him "no". Ruby came up to truck and asked this question on two occasions.

 

Steve Thomas

This is incredible testimony that if true blows away the official record of Ruby's activities the morning of 11,24,1963.

I had never heard of these witnesses nor their Ruby sighting statements.

[Joe Bauer]

Steve, I just saw that the distance between Fort Worth and Dallas is 32 miles.

I now see that this distance is significant enough to explain why Ruby didn't drive to personally give Little Lynn any funds at her apartment.

[Stephanie Goldberg]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

And now we find out that there probably was a closer Western union he could have gone to.  Was it open that day?

So...how do we find out the hours of Western Union locations in Dallas in 1963?

[Ron Ecker]

6 minutes ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

So...how do we find out the hours of Western Union locations in Dallas in 1963?

The yellow pages may give the business hours.

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

17 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Joe,

If you look these guys up in the Mary Ferrell Foundation, you should be able to read their FBI statements.

At 10:00 Ruby was supposed to still be in bed.

John Smith, video reporter for WBAP-TV saw Ruby at about 8:00 AM on 11/24 standing on the Commerce St. sidewalk. WBAB-TV truck parked on Commerce St. about 25' from the basement ramp. Smith spoke to Ruby. Saw him again about 10:00 AM next to the ramp. Ruby looked like a person who was "just killing time."

Ira Walker, employee WBAB-TV saw Ruby between 7:30 and 8:00 AM near WBAB-TV truck. Walker said he first saw Ruby shortly after the armored truck was backed into the basement of the Police Department. Ruby came up to the WBAP-TV truck and asked if Oswald had been brought down yet. Walker told him "no". Ruby came up to truck and asked this question on two occasions.

 

Steve Thomas

Why have these two witnesses ( Smith and Walker) received so little mention in the larger research body context?

They gave FBI statements so their eye witness accounts are part of the public record.

Were they and their accounts discredited?  If so, how?

Did the Warren Commission not know of these two and their recorded statements?

I just accessed the relevant Mary Ferrell pages referring to three 3 television truck technicians and their Ruby sighting accounts early in the morning of 11,24,1963 as described in the commission records.

Like the commission's dismissal of Seth Kantor's stated account of personally meeting and talking to Jack Ruby at Parkland hospital the early afternoon of 11,22,1963 ... they similarly dismiss these men's accounts of seeing Jack Ruby as mistaken identity.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Did the Warren Commission not know of these two and their recorded statements?

I just accessed the relevant Mary Ferrell pages referring to three 3 television truck technicians and their Ruby sighting accounts early in the morning of 11,24,1963 as described in the commission records.

Like the commission's dismissal of Seth Kantor's stated account of personally meeting and talking to Jack Ruby at Parkland hospital the early afternoon of 11,22,1963 ... they similarly dismiss these men's accounts of seeing Jack Ruby as mistaken identity.

Joe,

 

I'm assuming this means you read their Warren Commission testimony. In addition to Smith and Walker, a third man - the cameraman, Warren Richey also testified. They all testified before the WC.

I like to use this site:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm

because it lets me cut and paste things.

All three of the men said they didn't know Ruby personally, but recognized him when they saw his picture on TV and in the papers as the guy who approached them on the street the morning of the 24th.

Walker told the WC that his FBI statement was wrong in that it wasn't he who said he saw Ruby around 8:00 to 8:30.

Richey told the WC that it was him.

You're right. The parallels to Seth Kantor are too stark to overlook.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Craig Carvalho]

To Jim D.

I have researched this case for over 45 years now. In recent years I have become very focused on a possible Oswald-Ruby connection. I do believe that Ruby was "stalking" Oswald that entire weekend beginning with his visit to PMH on the afternoon of 11/22 which he denied up until the time of his death. Why he would vehemently deny something as innocuous as this seems in and of itself conspiratorial.

To begin to understand how any connection between the two could have come to pass one must travel back several months before the president's assassination and visit an event in Oswald's life that in all respects must have been a pivotal moment for him... Oswald's attempt on the life of Edwin Walker. This attack however seems to be one topic that most Oswald researchers go out of their way to avoid. Perhaps they feel that it only serves to further muddy the waters of an already muddled stream of facts and information. Nevertheless, it set the stage for events that unfolded in Dealey Plaza. And it also raises the first in a series of possible Oswald-Ruby related coincidences. 

We know that Oswald's last steps as a free man began at his rooming house on Beckley, paused briefly at Tenth and Patton, and then ended at the Texas Theater on Jefferson. Looking at a map of Dallas in 1963 it is noteworthy that had Oswald not been stopped by officer Tippit, his journey would had led him in a nearly straight line to the doorstep of Jack Ruby's apartment, (AG Waggoner Carr sent a private memo to the WC stating this fact). How does this relate to the attempt on Walker you ask? 

While most researches are well aware of the above mentioned facts, fewer realize that Ruby's lesser known Vegas Club was only about a half mile from Walker's home on Turtlecreek Boulevard. The attack on Walker took place at 9 p.m.. Yet Oswald did not return home until close to midnight. During a closed session of the WC this concern was raised. Where was Oswald for nearly 3 hours? This question has never been answered or even contemplated by most of the research community.

Could Ruby have, in some way, assisted Oswald in his attempt on Walker? Even perhaps if it were only to give Oswald a place to hide. If Ruby did assist Oswald it would certainly help explain Ruby's obsession with the idea of a right-wing conspiracy in connection with the president's murder beginning in the early morning hours of Saturday November 23rd. This was after Ruby himself had corrected DA Henry Wade regarding Oswald's membership in the FPCC following Oswald's midnight press conference. This would also explain Ruby's stated reluctance to tell his whole story to Chief Justice Earl Warren in Dallas. When asked by Chief Justice Warren what Ruby was so afraid of, Ruby stated in no uncertain terms that..."There is a group here called the John Birch Society. The leader of this group is general Edwin Walker." But most importantly it would supply us with a real motive for Ruby's stalking and murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Regards,

Craig C. 

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Craig Carvalho said:

While most researches are well aware of the above mentioned facts, fewer realize that Ruby's lesser known Vegas Club was only about a half mile from Walker's home on Turtlecreek Boulevard. The attack on Walker took place at 9 p.m.. Yet Oswald did not return home until close to midnight. During a closed session of the WC this concern was raised. Where was Oswald for nearly 3 hours? This question has never been answered or even contemplated by most of the research community.

Could Ruby have, in some way, assisted Oswald in his attempt on Walker? Even perhaps if it were only to give Oswald a place to hide.

Craig,

 

" Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because as soon as he came home I showed him the note and asked him "What is the meaning of this?"
Mr. RANKIN. And that is when he gave you the explanation about the Walker shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what?
Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week."

 

Where was the rifle between Sunday and Wednesday?

 

Steve Thomas

[Craig Carvalho]

10 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Craig,

 

" Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because as soon as he came home I showed him the note and asked him "What is the meaning of this?"
Mr. RANKIN. And that is when he gave you the explanation about the Walker shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what?
Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week."

 

Where was the rifle between Sunday and Wednesday?

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

I have toyed with the idea that maybe Ruby's involvement could have included the whereabouts of Oswald's Carcano, (either before and or after the shooting). It would certainly make more sense then hiding it in some bushes near the scene of the crime. But this idea would only be viable if in fact Ruby had prior knowledge of Oswald's planned attack. Having no direct evidence of this, (other than Robert Surrey's documented encounter just prior to the attack on Walker), I felt it best to keep my hypothesis as simple as possible. 

I do believe that if Ruby assisted Oswald he did so on orders from someone. If he was going to help hide Oswald, why not help hide the intended murder weapon?

Regards,

Craig C. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Craig Carvalho

[Joe Bauer]

On 8/3/2019 at 10:38 AM, Steve Thomas said:

 

Steve, I just read these three TV truck technician's Warren Commission testimonies regarding their commonly shared belief that the man they saw near their truck the morning of 11,24,1963 was Jack Ruby.

There are discrepancies between their accounts such as the time frames of their sightings.

And of course they saw the man in question from different view points and distances.

However, they all seemed to share about the same concluding confidence in their belief that the face they saw that morning was Jack Ruby based on pictures or newsreels they saw of Ruby soon after Ruby shot Oswald.

Their shared descriptions of the Ruby look-alike man's clothing attire and his slightly unkempt appearance do contradict what was generally known about Ruby's typical way of dress and grooming.

I can understand their Ruby ID testimonies being considered with at least some doubt based on these contradictions.

Julia Ann Mercer stated she identified Jack Ruby as the driver of a green plumbing truck pulled up on the end of the Elm Street / Dealey Plaza sidewalk the late morning of 11,22,1963, causing her to have to stop and slowly pass the truck just 1 and 1/2 hours before JFK was killed mere yards from there.

She claimed she identified the man she saw behind the drivers wheel of this truck as Jack Ruby after being shown photos of different men by her FBI interrogators and picking out Ruby's face among them.

The two TV truck technicians on Commerce Street the morning of 11,24,1963 testified under oath they saw the Ruby look-alike man's face and saw this even closer than Julia Ann Mercer's stated distance.

But these two TV truck technicians had another aspect in their up close physical encounter beyond just visual.

They exchanged words.

They heard their look-alike man speak, directly to them.

I was surprised the Warren Commission questioner didn't pursue this added encounter dynamic with the technicians.

A simple logical question you would expect from the questioner to the technicians would be something like..."you heard this man's voice. Have you at anytime after your encounter and before your testimony today had the chance to hear any recorded tape of Jack Ruby himself speaking to the press?"

And if you have, could you in anyway tell if the voice you heard in your personal encounter with the man on Commerce Street was the same or even similar as the speaking voice of Jack Ruby you may have heard later through TV or radio reports?

And this would include a certain way of speaking such as inflections, loudness, accent ( Texan? ) or no accent, movement of mouth, etc.

The added personal encounter act of speaking directly to someone and being spoken to ( and only a couple of feet apart ) adds a very important credibility dynamic in a person's identification determination claims in a comparative sense...imo.

These TV truck technicians spoke face to face with their Ruby look-alike person just as Seth Kantor claimed he did the afternoon of 11,22,1963 at Parkland hospital.

Curious whether the two technicians ever tried to compare their auditory memories of their encounter with the Commerce street man to later videos of Jack Ruby interviews which they almost certainly came across in their lives after their initial Ruby look-alike encounter?

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

Doyle Lane, the WU clerk, testified that he knew Jack Ruby from prior transactions.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man by the name of Jack Ruby that day?
Mr. LANE. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that time?
Mr. LANE. I had known him through patronage.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he came into the Western Union office that day you recognized him as Jack Ruby, a man with whom you had done Western Union telegraph business?

Lane also wrote a letter to Laurence Wilcox detailing the nature of the prior transactions.

But that's no fun, is it?

[Ron Ecker]

I'm kind of like Jack Ruby. Whenever I go to buy my Lotto ticket, there are closer locations than Publix to buy it at. But I prefer to go buy it at Publix. However, I never take my dog with me.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Ron Ecker

[Guest]

Well, I probably wouldn't take my cat with me regardless of whether I were simply going to Western Union or also carrying out a Mafia-orchestrated hit on a Presidential assassin.  But surely I'd be far less likely to take her if I were carrying out a Mafia-orchestrated hit.  By all accounts, Ruby was fanatically devoted to Sheba, even referring to her as his "wife," and took her most everywhere.  The fact that he took her on this occasion seems to suggest to most people that the shooting of LHO was indeed an impromptu act and not a planned one.  The entire sequence of Ruby's morning just makes no sense as a planned hit on Oswald, but in any event I think it's difficult to see any mystery to his visit to the WU main office where he had done business on past occasions.

[James DiEugenio]

Ron:

Do you live in Florida?

To those of us who live in California, Publix is the Ralph's of Florida.