Dealey Plaza Witness Survey

[Mark Tyler]

Malcolm Couch gave an eyewitness report on WFAA radio on the day of the assassination:

"Just as the President's car turned the corner, I heard a loud shot that sounded like at first a backfire.  And then I heard another one.  And then finally a third shot.  We naturally took this third shot as a rifle shot because we figured by the third shot that this was not a backfire, that it was not a motorcycle backfiring, but it was actually someone taking a crack at the President.  Just as our car rounded the corner we saw the President's car speed off."

On 27th November 1963 Malcolm Couch had an interview with the FBI which was reported as:

"he heard two loud noises about ten seconds apart which sounded like a motorcycle backfire. He said as they turned the corner onto Elm from Houston, he heard another noise, and Robert Jackson yelled to look up at the window. He said he immediately turned his head toward the area of the Texas School Book Depository building, and around the fifth or sixth floor he observed what appeared to be a rifle being withdrawn from a window. He said by this time the car was approximately in front of the window in question, but he could not observe any figure behind same."

CD5 : https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0045a.gif

Curiously only two shots were mentioned here for some reason, but the time frame of 10 seconds is of some value (as will be shown later).  In 1964 he gave a more detailed explanation to the Warren Commission:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you heard the first noise?
Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of Main onto Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn?
Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn.

6H156 : https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Couch.pdf

From this statement we can deduce that the Z190 Hughes frame above is around or just before Couch heard the first shot (i.e. Z190-Z220 is when the shot was fired).  Couch also gives more useful data on the other shots:

Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction ; uh-nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, but didn’t think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front of us. And, as I recall, I didn’t have any particular fears or feelings at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle. Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot?
Mr. COUCH. I’d say we were about 50 feet from making-or maybe 60 feet from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots?
Mr. COUCH. No.

With 5 seconds between each of the three shots we get to the 10 seconds that Couch mentioned in the FBI interview.  By saying he was 50-60 feet from making the turn when he heard the final shot, I think he is referring to roughly this animation frame:

Just to help readers with distance, the car labelled 23 is about 50-60 feet away from Couch (car 25) and it has just about made the turn onto Elm Street.  This frame also indicates that a few seconds later Couch would indeed have seen the Presidential limo as it sped away as his car turned the corner, just as he said on the day of the assassination.  In other words his judgement and testimony seems to be reliable and closely resembles the measurable events in Dealey Plaza.

In summary, Malcolm Couch heard three shots in a 10 second period somewhere in the range Z190 to Z400 of the Zapruder film, and immediately following this he saw a gun being withdrawn from the sixth floor window.

[Joe Bauer]

In his radio audio interview linked above, Couch mentions "I noticed a pool of blood on the sidewalk?"  "It wasn't the President's blood."

What an odd observation. Wonder what it was ( something on the sidewalk ) that put this image into his thoughts.

The shock of the extremely violent and frightening event and especially being right in the middle of it while it was happening, probably has an effect on some people regards their mind processing things differently and to different degrees I would imagine.

Up close lawn location JFK head shot eyewitness Jean Hill claimed she saw a small dog in Jackie's lap during the shooting?

Wonder if Couch was ever asked about his 11,22,1963 radio interview "pool of blood" statement in later interviews?

Edited August 30, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Mark Tyler]

7 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

In his radio audio interview linked above, Couch mentions "I noticed a pool of blood on the sidewalk?"  "It wasn't the President's blood."

What an odd observation. Wonder what it was ( something on the sidewalk ) that put this image into his thoughts.

The shock of the extremely violent and frightening event and especially being right in the middle of it while it was happening, probably has an effect of some people regards their mind processing things differently and to different degrees I would imagine.

Up close lawn location JFK head shot eyewitness Jean Hill claimed she saw a small dog in Jackie's lap during the shooting?

Wonder if Couch was ever asked about his 11,22,1963 radio interview "pool of blood" statement in later interviews?

The pool of blood is a strange observation, and probably the same pool that Jean Hill mentioned, who later said it was a spilt drink.  Couch located the area in the same place that Hill did:

"This was the little walkway - steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building."

I agree with you about the violent event affecting peoples judgement, as everyone would have been extremely distressed, especially those like Jean Hill who were so close to the limo.

The sound of gunshots may have also had a psychological effect in terms of people smelling gunpowder, as even Earle Brown 100 yards away from Dealey Plaza could smell it.  In the Camera Car #3 Tom Dillard also mentioned smelling gunpowder when his car stopped by the TSBD.

[Mark Tyler]

Tom Dillard was in the front seat of Camera Car #3 and was quoted in an FBI report from 25th November 1963:

Mr. Dillard stated the car in which he was riding had not approached the corner of Houston and Elm Streets when he heard a noise sounding like a "torpedo" (a large firecracker). He states upon hearing another sound similar to the first he realized it was gunfire.
He states that upon hearing the third shot the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository building. He states at that time he heard Bob Jackson of the Dallas times Herald exclaim "I see a rifle. It’s up there in the open window." Then Jackson pointed toward the Texas School Book Depository Building located at Elm and Houston Streets.
Mr. Dillard stated he looked upward toward the building and saw nothing resembling a rifle protruding from an open window. He states he did, however, take two photographs of the building at that time.

CD5 : https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0049a.gif

Sadly there aren't any specific timings, but please note that the third shot was fired when his car was directly in front of the TSBD, which closely resembles what Malcolm Couch said.  Helpfully his deposition to the Warren Commission in 1964 gives much more information:

Mr. DILLARD. Yes; I heard an explosion which I made the comment that I believe, in my memory, I believe I said, “My God, they’ve thrown a torpedo” and why I said “torpedo”, I don’t know. If you wish, I’ll go ahead.
Mr. BALL. Go ahead with your story.
Mr. DILLARD. Well, then I later estimated, immediately later, estimated, oh, 4, about 3 or 4 seconds, another explosion and my comment was, “No, It’s heavy rifle fire,” and I remember very distinctly I said, “It’s very heavy rifle fire.”
Mr. BALL. How many explosions did you hear?
Mr. DILLARD. I heard three--the three approximately equally spaced.
Mr. BALL. What is the best estimate of the position of your car with reference to the turn at Main and Houston when you heard the first explosion?
Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps, oh, just a few feet around the corner and it seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn when I heard the first explosion.

6H163 : https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Dillard.pdf

Just after the final shot the car stopped and Dillard took two pictures of the TSBD where others in the car said the gun was withdrawn from:

https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/45067/image-of-the-top-floors-of-the-texas-school-book-depository

In summary Dillard says:

• Three equally spaced shots.
• 4 seconds between shots.
• The first shot was fired just after the turn onto Houston Street.
• The last shot was fired when the car was directly in front of the TSBD.

This is a very similar story to Couch, only varying in minor detail.

[Mark Tyler]

James Underwood was in the front seat of Camera Car #3, and was quoted in an FBI report from 25th November:

Mr. Underwood states the car in which he was riding was approaching the corner of Houston and Elm Streets, Dallas, Texas, when he heard a loud noise sounding similar to a gunshot. He states that upon hearing the second noise he realized it was a gunshot and that at the sound of the next shot the car in which he was riding was almost directly in front of the Texas School book Depository Building located on Elm and Houston Streets. He stated at this time the car in which he was riding had been stopped, and he overheard Bob Jackson of the Dallas Times Herald say "There’s a rifle." Then Jackson pointed upward toward the Texas School Book Depository building.

CD5 : https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0024a.gif

Once again, notice how the final shot was fired when the car was "almost directly in front of the Texas School book Depository".  Apart from this, it's rather vague about detail like timings, but the 1964 Warren Commission deposition helps out somewhat:

Mr. UNDERWOOD. After we turned onto Houston Street, the car I was in was about, as far as I can remember, about in the middle of the block or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short block, when I heard the first shot.
Mr. BALL. Between Houston and Elm?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; between Main and Elm, closer to the Elm intersection, Elm and Houston intersection, when I heard the first shot fired. I thought it was an explosion. I have heard many rifles fired but it did not sound like a rifle to me. Evidently must have been a reverberation from the buildings or something. I believe I said to one of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car I was in was about in the intersection of Elm and Houston when I heard a second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and I realized that they were by that time. The last two shots, I realized they were coming from overhead.

6H169 : https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Underwood.pdf

When the first shot he heard was fired, the position of the car was about halfway along Houston Street which is later than Couch and Dillard said.  Here is that point in the animation showing his car (25) halfway:

Notice that the time is Z309, which is exactly the time that the assassin was depressing the trigger for the fatal head shot.  Underwood said the second and third shots were fired when the car was in front of the TSBD which would be around Z400 before it stopped circa Z450-Z480.

In summary, James Underwood heard two shots after the head shot and he seems to have missed the first shot around Z190-Z220 that the other occupants of the car reported just after the turn onto Houston Street.

[Mark Tyler]

Robert Jackson was in the back seat of Camera Car #3, and was quoted in an FBI report from an interview on the day of the assassination:

He advised the car in which he was riding was proceeding north on Houston Street, between Main and Elm Streets, and the presidential car had already turned left on Elm Street (off Houston Street) when he heard three loud reports which sounded like shots from a gun.  He stated that there was a "pause" after the first shot, which was followed by the second and third shots in rapid succession.
Jackson advised that upon hearing the three shots, he looked upward and straight ahead at a window in the Texas School Book Depository building, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, in time to see the barrell of a rifle being pulled inside the window. Jackson said he was unable to see the person holding the rifle and therefore could not describe such individual.

CD5 : https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0069a.gif

No exact timings or positions were given, but note that after the final shot he saw the gun being withdrawn from the sixth floor window.  More detail was given in his 1964 deposition to the Warren Commission:

Mr. JACKSON. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately almost half a block on Houston Street.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard the first shot?
Mr. JACKSON. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this building. Approximately where we heard the first report.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark in a black “X” on 347 the spot where your car was at the time you heard the first shot?

2H158 : https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/pdf/WH2_Jackson.pdf

Sadly I can't spot the X in this exhibit to make his testimony clearer, but I assume it's halfway down the block as he said (if anyone has a clearer version let me know!):

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0484b.htm

However the timing of the first shot relates to someone speaking in the car:

Mr. JACKSON. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did sneak up and make that comment and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President’s car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like a rifle approximately half of the weapon. I guess I saw, and just as I looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it. I didn’t even see a form in the window.

As quoted earlier Dillard described a "torpedo" as the noise of the first shot, so this it could be him, or it could be Underwood as he mentioned a "firecracker".  Sadly due to this ambiguity I'm not sure which shot he is referring to for certain as Underwood's first shot was Z310 and Dillard's was Z220.  However the timing of the last shot can be deduced by his reference in this quote:

"I said 'There is a gun' or it came from that window. I tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the corner."

As with the other witnesses he is saying the final shot was fired just before they started to turn the corner.  This statement is especially useful because we can peg the final shot to a time no later than Camera Car #3 beginning its turn onto Elm Street, which is about Z400-Z440. Jackson confirms this timing as he saw the Presidential limo leave Dealey Plaza:

"As we turned the corner--or we stopped where the intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear end of it as it disappeared under the underpass."

Here is the Google street view from a similar position at the intersection showing what would have been visible as he looked down the Elm Street incline:

Here is the animation frame of this time with an arrow showing his view as the limo went under the bridge:

The time the limo left under the underpass was Z460-Z486, which was indeed the same time that Jackson's car stopped, which adds credibility to this witness statement.  It all happened very quickly of course, but all of the claims he makes seem correct from a physical perspective.  In terms of shot timings he said:

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot you heard and the last shot you heard?
Mr. JACKSON. I would say 5 to 8 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one?
Mr. JACKSON. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second. I really can’t be sure.

In summary, there are a few ambiguities and uncertainties with Jackson's testimony but I would say the pattern of two shots in quick succession at the end was closer to Underwood's description than the equally spaced shots that Dillard mentioned.

[Mark Tyler]

So this concludes my tour of statements from the Camera Car #3 witnesses.  As with all witnesses in Dealey Plaza they disagree on one or two details (e.g. the spacing of the shots), but they mostly corroborate each other in terms of the timing of the last shot.  They also seem to corroborate the statements from other witnesses who are certain there was at least one shot well after the head shot (Brehm, Moorman, Hill, Hudson, Dishong, Bowers, etc).

The final proof that Z313 can't be time of the final shot is to look at the position of Camera Car #3 at that point and look through the eyes of the witnesses.  Here is the Google street view from roughly that point:

Judging from the statements above, none of the witnesses said this is where the shooting stopped (Underwood actually said this is where he was when the shooting started!).  I think this proves that at least one shot was fired well after Z313, and is the final coup de grace for the oldest myth in town.

Whether you are a conspiracy theorist, a lone gunman theorist, or a fence sitter like me, challenging the "last shot was the head shot" orthodoxy has profound implications for the most popular theories (i.e. they are wrong!).  The information I have used was available in 1963 and 1964, and in several cases was being broadcast to the world within hours of the assassination so I consider these to be the honest views from those witnesses.

I have just updated the witness spreadsheet for this latest analysis, and also the names of a few policeman in the Dealey Plaza area who are slightly less well known.  I also put "Jim Braden" on the list as he was acting suspiciously in the Dal-Tex building, and the three unidentified tramps.  Despite none of these new witnesses providing useful information regarding the shooting I have included them as they were in the Dealey Plaza area around the time of the crime.

As always, if I have made any mistakes please let me know so I can clear them up.

[Mark Stevens]

2 minutes ago, Mark Tyler said:

.....

Regarding a shot after the head shot, what would you believe the implications of this to be?

I've never personally believed or considered a shot after the head shot simply due to the "logistics" of it all. For instance in all possible shooting locations I've considered, each had a great view of the target and could clearly see the result of the head shot. There would be no need to fire another round considering what I view to be the severity of that wound.

The only way I feel a shot could have happened after the head shot was if Kennedy was not the target or was not the only target. Even though he had what appeared to be a fatal wound, if he was not the only target or even the target then other shots would be necessary.

Another way I could consider is if the shooter had a poor line of sight to the target and could not see the result of the head shot. This seems doubtful to me because if this shooter couldn't see the target well enough to see the head shot, this shooter likely would not even have a shot to begin with and would not be firing at all.

The last option is some form of return fire, but from and to leave me with no real options.

I believe based on what I currently know that reports of shots after the head shot are mistaken and are either echoes or other sounds or the witness recollection of the timing is off.

[Joe Bauer]

The first photo above is intriguingly thought provoking.

You get an angle shot that shows the TXSBD in a much more "right/back" location relative to JFK's limo than I have ever seen before.

A thought occurred to me seeing this new farther right side TXSBD location about any bullet coming from a rifle out of the TXSBD building and hitting JFK in the back of his head and blowing out the flap of skull and bone on the "far right side" of it.

I am picturing JFK's limo going down towards the triple underpass. When the head shot occurred, JFK's limo was in the middle of Elm and heading straight toward the underpass. His limo was aligned with it's back facing straight back and not facing the TXSBD which in this photo is clearly to the right of a straight back line.

If the TXSBD shooter hit JFK's head the shot would have come in from a "right to left" angle. Imo, this angle of entry would go through JFK's skull in a way that could not change course 90 degrees and blow out the "far right" side of his skull.

The  skull blowout and the TXSBD are both on the right side.

Looks much more likely to me that JFK's head shot came from a much more straight back location, even slightly left back...to penetrate his skull and blow out his skull on the right side.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Mark Tyler]

14 hours ago, Mark Stevens said:

Regarding a shot after the head shot, what would you believe the implications of this to be?

In terms of the assassination narrative it's very hard to say.  I don't feel a late shot helps or hinders any particular theory (conspiracy or lone gunman).  My real goal with this work is to separate the wheat from the chaff, i.e. establish where the real evidence lies and where the red herrings are.  Maybe in a year or two when I have completely finished studying the evidence I may come off the fence, but at the moment there are still unresolved areas that could affect my thinking (e.g. the single bullet theory which which may help us locate the position of the assassin somewhere other than the sixth floor window).

14 hours ago, Mark Stevens said:

I've never personally believed or considered a shot after the head shot simply due to the "logistics" of it all. For instance in all possible shooting locations I've considered, each had a great view of the target and could clearly see the result of the head shot. There would be no need to fire another round considering what I view to be the severity of that wound.

The only way I feel a shot could have happened after the head shot was if Kennedy was not the target or was not the only target. Even though he had what appeared to be a fatal wound, if he was not the only target or even the target then other shots would be necessary.

This is the most common response to a late shot people have given me over the last year: "why would the assassin bother to shoot again if he hit his target at Z313?".  As with all questions it has various assumptions and preconceptions baked into it:

• The assassin saw what we see in the Zapruder film at Z313.
• The assassin knew JFK was mortally wounded.
• The assassin had time to weigh up whether to shoot again.
• There was only one assassin (and one target as you say).

I feel some of these assumptions are wrong (possibly all of them), but ultimately it's hard to know for sure as the assassin never came forward to explain his actions.

We can deduce that a 5 second gap between shots implies 2.5 seconds to operate a bolt action gun, 2 seconds to line up the target, and 0.5 seconds to squeeze the trigger.  This matches the gap between the known victim reactions in the Zapruder film to two of the shots fired at Z220 and Z310.  With a large majority of witnesses describing three shots, when was the third fired?  Logically it must be before Z220 by about 5 seconds, or after Z310 by 5 seconds.  I favour the latter because of the dozens of witnesses who say that's what happened, compared to the almost zero reliable witnesses who support a very early shot at Z160 or before.

If the third shot was fired between Z220 and Z310 as some witnesses claim, we have two guns firing as there wouldn't have been enough time to accurately fire 3 shots in 5 seconds.  However, this creates a loose end because many witnesses say the shooting lasted about 10 seconds, and Z220 to Z310 is only 5 seconds.  By contrast, if a witness missed the first or last shot it would explain why those witnesses say the shooting lasted just 5 seconds (e.g. James Altgens).

14 hours ago, Mark Stevens said:

Another way I could consider is if the shooter had a poor line of sight to the target and could not see the result of the head shot. This seems doubtful to me because if this shooter couldn't see the target well enough to see the head shot, this shooter likely would not even have a shot to begin with and would not be firing at all.

The last option is some form of return fire, but from and to leave me with no real options.

A return of fire scenario is interesting and worth considering as Jean Hill suggested this is what she thought was happening after the head shot as the secret service agents were all brandishing guns (and she said the shots came too quickly for a single gunman).  However, none of the agents said this is what happened and no other witnesses volunteered this idea so I suspect it's probably not what happened.  If more than one gun was fired that day I suspect it was either another assassin or maybe a decoy shooter to distract from the "real" assassin who may not have been located in the TSBD.

14 hours ago, Mark Stevens said:

I believe based on what I currently know that reports of shots after the head shot are mistaken and are either echoes or other sounds or the witness recollection of the timing is off.

My best estimate of when the final shot was fired is circa Z400 which is about 5 seconds after Z313 so I don't think this is close enough to be mixed up with the previous shot.  Any witness can be wrong of course, but for so many to be wrong in exactly the same way seems unlikely.

When studying the witness statements my general attitude is to accept what the witnesses say happened unless there is a conflict or contradiction.  In this part of the case there are witnesses who did not hear a shot after Z313 such as James Altgens who I mentioned earlier, so we have a conflict between the witnesses which must be resolved somehow.  In the case of Altgens I explained that he was distracted in the time Z370-Z430 by:

• A loud siren 20-25 feet away.
• Noisy bikes and cars whizzing past.
• He was taking a photo at the time (the so called Altgens 7 photo).
• The gruesome head shot moments before.

By contrast the Houston Street witnesses mentioned earlier had no such distractions so I consider them to be in a better position to recall a shot or shots fired in the time frame Z370-Z430.

In summary, some of the witnesses must have been mistaken.  Either there was or there wasn't a late shot.  I think there was a late shot because of the high number of quality witnesses who say there was a shot in the circa Z400 time frame, including the Camera Car #3 witnesses whose observations can be clocked using the known car positions relative to the Zapruder film from Z190 to Z400 which contains the three shots they reported.

[Mark Tyler]

9 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The first photo above is intriguingly thought provoking.

You get an angle shot that shows the TXSBD in a much more "right/back" location relative to JFK's limo than I have never seen before.

A thought occurred to me seeing this new farther right side TXSBD location about any bullet coming from a rifle out of the TXSBD building and hitting JFK in the back of his head and blowing out the flap of skull and bone on the "far right side" of it.

I am picturing JFK's limo going down towards the triple underpass. When the head shot occurred, JFK's limo was in the middle of Elm and heading straight toward the underpass. His limo was aligned with it's back facing straight back and not facing the TXSBD which in this photo is clearly to the right of a straight back line.

If the TXSBD shooter hit JFK's head the shot would have come in from a "right to left" angle. Imo, this angle of entry would go through JFK's skull in a way that could not change course 90 degrees and blow out the "far right" side of his skull.

The  skull blowout and the TXSBD are both on the right side.

Looks much more likely to me that JFK's head shot came from a much more straight back location, even slightly left back...to penetrate his skull and blow out his skull on the right side.

The angle of trajectory for the head shot is tricky to judge due to the slightly leftward direction of JFK's head at frame Z312:

However, I do agree with you that a shot entering the rear centre of the skull would indeed exit the right side in this scenario (especially if it was fired from a different angle such as the Dal-Tex building).  This is also consistent with what you seen in the Zapruder frames Z314-Z320, and also the autopsy photos.

It's also the reason that I don't think this shot came from the right hand side on the grassy knoll as the head damage was entirely on the right hand side.  If a shot was fired from the knoll it would have damaged the left side also, but that's not what we see in the film, the autopsy photos, or what the Parkland doctors and Dealey Plaza witnesses reported.

The Dal-Tex is also mentioned regarding JFK's back and throat wound because the trajectory seems too flat to come from a high position like the sixth floor TSBD window.

Ultimately what is required to sort this out is a high quality 3D rendering of Dealey Plaza that can explore each of these potential sniper locations and see which one is most consistent with the physical evidence.  Each of the 3D models I have seen over the years has been purely to bolster the sixth floor sniper scenario, thus wilfully ignoring all other lines of inquiry.  Perhaps even more grievous is that these models very often get the wound locations wrong such as the entrance wound being placed in the neck when it should be lower down on the back.  The other "trick" is where JFK is made to lean forward to raise the back wound above the throat wound, as the HSCA did:

None of these contortions are consistent with the photos and films such as the Croft photo just a few seconds before the wound was inflicted:

I look forward to @Lawrence Schnapf and his colleagues shedding light on this part of the case and allowing us all to judge what the most likely shooting trajectories were in 1963:

 

[Mark Stevens]

34 minutes ago, Mark Tyler said:

In terms of the assassination narrative it's very hard to say.  I don't feel a late shot helps or hinders any particular theory (conspiracy or lone gunman).  My real goal with this work is to separate the wheat from the chaff, i.e. establish where the real evidence lies and where the red herrings are.  Maybe in a year or two when I have completely finished studying the evidence I may come off the fence, but at the moment there are still unresolved areas that could affect my thinking (e.g. the single bullet theory which which may help us locate the position of the assassin somewhere other than the sixth floor window).

This is the most common response to a late shot people have given me over the last year: "why would the assassin bother to shoot again if he hit his target at Z313?".  As with all questions it has various assumptions and preconceptions baked into it:

• The assassin saw what we see in the Zapruder film at Z313.
• The assassin knew JFK was mortally wounded.
• The assassin had time to weigh up whether to shoot again.
• There was only one assassin (and one target as you say).

I feel some of these assumptions are wrong (possibly all of them), but ultimately it's hard to know for sure as the assassin never came forward to explain his actions.

We can deduce that a 5 second gap between shots implies 2.5 seconds to operate a bolt action gun, 2 seconds to line up the target, and 0.5 seconds to squeeze the trigger.  This matches the gap between the known victim reactions in the Zapruder film to two of the shots fired at Z220 and Z310.  With a large majority of witnesses describing three shots, when was the third fired?  Logically it must be before Z220 by about 5 seconds, or after Z310 by 5 seconds.  I favour the latter because of the dozens of witnesses who say that's what happened, compared to the almost zero reliable witnesses who support a very early shot at Z160 or before.

If the third shot was fired between Z220 and Z310 as some witnesses claim, we have two guns firing as there wouldn't have been enough time to accurately fire 3 shots in 5 seconds.  However, this creates a loose end because many witnesses say the shooting lasted about 10 seconds, and Z220 to Z310 is only 5 seconds.  By contrast, if a witness missed the first or last shot it would explain why those witnesses say the shooting lasted just 5 seconds (e.g. James Altgens).

A return of fire scenario is interesting and worth considering as Jean Hill suggested this is what she thought was happening after the head shot as the secret service agents were all brandishing guns (and she said the shots came too quickly for a single gunman).  However, none of the agents said this is what happened and no other witnesses volunteered this idea so I suspect it's probably not what happened.  If more than one gun was fired that day I suspect it was either another assassin or maybe a decoy shooter to distract from the "real" assassin who may not have been located in the TSBD.

My best estimate of when the final shot was fired is circa Z400 which is about 5 seconds after Z313 so I don't think this is close enough to be mixed up with the previous shot.  Any witness can be wrong of course, but for so many to be wrong in exactly the same way seems unlikely.

When studying the witness statements my general attitude is to accept what the witnesses say happened unless there is a conflict or contradiction.  In this part of the case there are witnesses who did not hear a shot after Z313 such as James Altgens who I mentioned earlier, so we have a conflict between the witnesses which must be resolved somehow.  In the case of Altgens I explained that he was distracted in the time Z370-Z430 by:

• A loud siren 20-25 feet away.
• Noisy bikes and cars whizzing past.
• He was taking a photo at the time (the so called Altgens 7 photo).
• The gruesome head shot moments before.

By contrast the Houston Street witnesses mentioned earlier had no such distractions so I consider them to be in a better position to recall a shot or shots fired in the time frame Z370-Z430.

In summary, some of the witnesses must have been mistaken.  Either there was or there wasn't a late shot.  I think there was a late shot because of the high number of quality witnesses who say there was a shot in the circa Z400 time frame, including the Camera Car #3 witnesses whose observations can be clocked using the known car positions relative to the Zapruder film from Z190 to Z400 which contains the three shots they reported.

Great reply Mark, some interesting points to mull over.

Thanks.

[John Butler]

On 8/29/2020 at 9:14 AM, Mark Tyler said:

Malcolm Couch gave an eyewitness report on WFAA radio on the day of the assassination:

"Just as the President's car turned the corner, I heard a loud shot that sounded like at first a backfire.  And then I heard another one.  And then finally a third shot.  We naturally took this third shot as a rifle shot because we figured by the third shot that this was not a backfire, that it was not a motorcycle backfiring, but it was actually someone taking a crack at the President.  Just as our car rounded the corner we saw the President's car speed off."

Thanks Mark ,

I didn't know this.

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

I favour the latter because of the dozens of witnesses who say that's what happened, compared to the almost zero reliable witnesses who support a very early shot at Z160 or before.

Mark,

Who would you consider as a reliable witness?  Is it someone in authority?  Someone whose statement has been verified by other witnesses?  Witnesses who say things that match the Zapruder film or other films and photos?  Or, witnesses that do not say things that match the Zapruder film or other films and photos?  

Where would you place a shot a Z 160?  At about the middle of the TSBD?  Or at the SW corner of the TSBD?  Past the TSBD?  At the R L Thornton sign?  At the Stemmons sign? 

David Josephs says a shot at Z 190 would be approximately at the SW corner of the TSBD.  He looked at Chris Davidson's Swan Song math and said that concurs.  I'm sure one or two of those excellent fellows will correct me if I got that wrong due to bad memory.

Edited August 31, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

On 8/15/2020 at 5:42 AM, Mark Tyler said:

It's all about lines of sight from where the photographs were taken.  If you look at the Bronson photo the 5 people are behind the limo.  If you look at the Zapruder frame the 5 are just to the left of the Stemmons sign, which is all exactly what the animation frame shows here (black line for Zapruder, yellow transparency for Bronson):

It's a perfect example of triangulation which verifies both the Zapruder film and the Bronson photo as authentic at that specific moment in time.  The blue scarf lady is just visible in both at one end, and then the lady in the yellow dress on the other side.  Here is a blow up of the Bronson photo compared to the Zapruder frame:

Also, notice how the red haired lady is clapping and has her hands slightly raised in both photos.

Here is the Moorman Polaroid you mentioned:

Sadly it's rather grainy, but I think you can just make out the two teenage boys on the left who appear in the Bronson photo just to the right of the umbrella man.  Alas with grainy or blurred photos it's not ideal for analysis.  It's rather irritating that it didn't come out as clearly as the other Moorman photos:

 

Mark,

There's a couple of things here to make comment on.  I agree Bronson and Moorman show pretty much the same thing.  That is there is a large gap of space in what I call Mannikin Row in the Zapruder film.  You say this is due to camera angles from where Zapruder is at.  What about the angles of Bronson and Moorman?  They are at different angles.  I really don't see how this can be due to camera angles.  (one can't really really on the Moorman photo.  There were no 50+ feet tall trees in Dealey Plaza on Nov., 22, 1963.

Then there is Willis and Betzner to consider.  They too are from different camera angles, but show basically what Zapruder shows from the other side of the street.

Betzner shows what Zapruder shows.  No gaps or Spaces in the area between the Stemmons sign and the lammpost.  The Stemmons sign is behind the woman with the blue scarf.

Willis is almost a complete reversal of Zapruder.  The woman with the blue scarf is almost covered by the sign as shown in Zapruder.  There are no gaps or spaces in the line between the Stemmons sign and the lamppost.