JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Officer Whites true position on the west side of the triple underpass as the presidents car went under the tracks above...

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass.

Top right hand corner of this image, dark pants dark shirt white police hat...

Adam, 

Thanks for your comment.   That is Officer J. C. White.  From where he was standing he would not be able to see anything concerning the assassination, hear perhaps.  It doesn't matter whether there was a train on the tracks or not.  The Triple Underpass is 120 feet wide.  From that position he would not be able to see anything in Dealey Plaza.  As far as hearing goes if there was not a train blocking hearing would he have heard firecracker sounds or gunshots.  Maybe or maybe not.  From ground level on either side of the Triple Underpass one may not be able to see a train in the center of the tracks.  This train in all likelihood could only be seen from an elevated position such as Bell had on Houston Street, but not on Main or the grassy area below the reflecting pool.  Patsy Paschall had had an elevated location, but her film was intentionally debased to the point of being not very useful.   

So, I don't see why he would say there was a long, slow freight train blocking his sight and hearing unless that was so.  he wouldn't have seen anything from there anyway.  The six Dallas policemen talked about trains in the area before and after the assassination.  None but White said there was a train on the TU.  They weren't asked and they didn't tell. 

 

   

[John Butler]

10 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

John. the 'ghost train in MC2 is part of the the same three Pullman cars you see in the Hughes film, and you can see the back end of the 1st of those three cars in the Allen photo. The policeman on the Pullman car photo has him on top of the same Pullman's as in the other photos. I have measured the location of those cars for Hughes, Allen and MC2 and the location for the back end we see in Allen is the same location in all those photos.
 The photo from the Stemmons freeway  shows different train cars. On the left there is a boxcar behind a flatbed with some stacked pyramid shapes cargo, the another partial boxcar in front of it. I will look again for the photo but I think I saw those cars sitting farther West on the Stemmons spur, maybe 50 or 100 yards from the tower
Just checked google Earth. That photo on the Stemmons shows the Dal Tex is not blocked by the TSB, there is a gap between them. You can use that to do a line of sight back to the  camera location on the Stemmons. A second line of sight from the limo can be traced using Bowers tower visible in the center of the photo. The Annex is behind it and the tower lines up with the 3rd window from the left. That gives a very accurate line of sight. The limo is right over  Continental Ave. Turns out those boxcars on the left side of the photo are nowhere near the yard. They are 1000 feet or so North of the plaza on track parallel to the Stemmons. The limo is about 2000 feet North of the plaza and 850  feet from those train cars. They only other track that intersects with the line of sight is tracks in the yard behind(North of) the TSB but the cars are facing 90 degrees away from the direction of those tracks.
The cars on the left side of the photo are also on same track but about 800 feet closer to the yard than the other cars. Cars on the left side are about 1200 feet from the yard and the cars on the left side of the screen are about 400 feet North of the yard.
 I do not believe you can judge relatives sizes of objects and get their distance without specific measurements. It is a ball park judgements and needs to be verified by testing and comparing relative sizes. Like the train cars on either side of the Stemmons limo photo above look pretty close in size to be so far apart yet the cars on the left are 50% larger when you measure them. The other factor is the distance from the camera to each object. If a camera is 100 feet away from object A and 200 feet from object B the relative sizes of A& B will not be the same as a photo taken from half the distance.  I THINK! I will test that and get back to you.
Place yourself over Continental Ave on the Stemmons and Bower's tower will line up just as in the photo. Then draw a line from the back of the TSB which is directly behind the train cars to continental Ave and the line will show the possible locations for the train cars
 The dark overpass in the Paschel film is not in itself evidence of fakery and I think the lack of quality in some photos makes it hard to see the people on the bridge.

Chris,

Thanks for making a comment on my work.  i was hoping someone would.  During the making that presentation, I continually had a nagging thought something was not quite right.  This nagging thought had to do with perspective, distance, speed, and time.

Basically, was there enough time to get a long, slow freight off the Triple Underpass and into the railroad yards?  More on this later.

When I read your comment I did not at first grasp what you were saying.  It was a case of Huh?  What?  Why that?  So, I had to look at MC 2 and what I had been calling MC3 to see if I could see something of what your were saying.

Looking at this montage I got to where you were at by a different means.  First off I noticed there were little white posts in the background of MC 2 and not in MC 3.  So, these were different areas.  I at first thought MC 3 was just down the Stemmons exit from where MC 2.  But, where were the signal towers?  What I thought wasn't so and a big mistake.  

How did I know it was a mistake.  Its the perspective viewing the TSBD.  In MC 2 you can see the south and west side of the building and in MC 3 you can see the north and west side of the building.  This says the p. limo must be out on the Stemmons Freeway, but how far away.  This Google Earth shot gives and indication.  The green area in MC 3 is visible, but covered with structures today and was not in 1963.  The red line shooting through the middle of that area matches the photo.

The p. limo would be at the end of the line approximately on the Stemmons Freeway (Continental Ave).  I went back to Richard Trask's book, Pictures of Pain, and found this:

Pictures Of The Pain quote on MC 3

"Later still McIntire, returning to his car up on Stemmons Freeway near the Continental Avenue exit ramp, snapped off his third photo.  The police had set up a temporary road block.  Taking the picture in a northeasterly direction with the Texas School Book Depository warehouse and the Sunshine Biscuit Company on Munger Street in the background beyond the railroad abutment, the photo shows several Dallas police officers and motorcycle cops near parked cycle #333.  Civilian dressed men, including two holding 16mm turret cameras and one also having an audio tape recorder, are also on hand.  McIntire was annoyed that the motorcade had driven by so fast.  Neither he nor Tenny had heard the shots, and it was not until they were driving on to their office that they learned of the shooting."

This quote from Trask indicates that MC 3 is not a McIntyre photo.  He couldn't possibly walked there ahead of the p. limo to get to his car on the Stemmons.  Even if he had a ride he would not have been able to pass the remants of the motorcade containing the p. limo.  The 5 motorcycle policemen would not have allowed another vehicle to approach or pass the p. limo.  Even if someone in the motorcade picked him up the situation is still impossible.

The photo could have been made by Al Volkland who was there waiting for the p. limo to pass.   Trask says he was not to far from McIntyre's position.  That doesn't make sense.  In my opinion MC 3 is not a McIntyre photo.

I'll have more comments later as I study your measurements to see if I can duplicate those with Google Earth.  After today I'll be silent for the next couple of days due to being out of town.

Once again thanks for your concern.  I always know to pay attention even if I don't exactly understand what you are saying.  It is time to look closer. 

 

  

    

[John Butler]

Timing of the train photos and frames

There are 8 photos and film frames that show trains that are of interest in determining information about trains around the Dealey Plaza area.  These are trains that are on the railroad lines that run across the Triple Underpass into the railroad yards and the Stemmons Overpass railroad line.

The first to consider is the Wilma Bond photo 8.  Wilma Bond was first at the Main and Houston intersection to watch the motorcade.  After the p. limo passed through, she walked over into the grassy area between Main and Elm approximately in front of the Grassy Knoll.  There she took this interesting photo.

There is a train just behind the Pergola structure.  It appears to be very close to the railroad yards near the parking lot and consists of a short passenger car or engine with another passenger car attached.  This scene is probably 1 to 2 minutes after the assassination.  The black ford in the photo is the 22^nd car of the motorcade.

An interesting aside is that there appears to be the Lady in Blue (Babushka Woman) that is shown in the Zapruder film. (Tammi True?)

The Bell film also shows a train behind the Pergola structure.

This also appears to be passenger cars like the Bond film.  This scene is after Bell watches the p. limo move to and pass under the Triple Underpass.  At that point he leaves his elevated perch and moves to Main Street and the grassy area between Main and Elm.  This frame scene is probably 1 to 2 minutes after the assassination.  I believe Bond and Bell are showing the same train segments.

This train appears to be close to the Pergola perhaps just off the railroad parking lot.  Its hard to think that this train and the Bond train are out on the Stemmons line or further north on a main line pass Lee Bower’s tower.

Another photo, the Allen photo, shows a train near the parking lot by size, but is actually about 150 feet away on the Stemmons Overpass line.  The train should appear smaller and in the distance.  The signal towers which this train runs through is on the Stemmons line.

This train cannot be matched to the Bond and Bell trains.  There is not enough information to do that.  Here we see a taller passenger car (average 16 ft.) and freight cars (average 14 feet).  The freight cars are smaller then the passenger cars and we don’t see this in Bond and Bell.

The time of this could be anywhere from 3 minutes to an hour after the assassination.  Policemen went to the Grassy Knoll and parking lot directly after the assassination.  But, the photographers came later.

At this writing, an unknown photographer took a photo of a train with a man or policeman on top of it.

 

This train also appears if it is just off the parking lot and may be.  It consists of passenger cars.  From this appearance it might match the Bond and Bell photos.  But, I don’t think so.

The time of this photo is similar to the Allen photo’s 3 minutes to a hour.  The crowd in the parking lot has thinned out somewhat and might be later.

Next is the Hughes film frame that shows a train near the parking lot.  This train has 3 passenger cars in it.  It can not be matched to the others due to limited information.  It appears to be on a main track line leading into the railroad lines.

The time here is perhaps 2 to 5 minutes after the assassination.  Hughes was first in the Main and Houston intersection filming the motorcade.  After the p. limo passed he went to Main Street and filmed down toward the Triple Underpass.  From there he turned his camera off and walked over into the parking lot and began filming again.  All of the photos and frames suggest this was the same train at the edge of the parking lot.  That judgement is problematic.

There are 3 photos left to cover.  These are the McIntyre photos.  At least two are McIntyre and the third is more than likely someone else’s photo.

The first McIntyre photo, MC 1, is taken by McIntyre standing near the Stemmons Street exit.

This photo was taken less than 30 seconds after the assassination.  Given a speed varying from 50 to 70 mph for the p. limo this is probably about 15 seconds after the shooting.

If you blow this up you will see passenger cars behind the signal towers on the Stemmons spur line.  More than likely these are the passenger cars seen in Bell and Bond.

Next is McIntyre 2, MC 2. 

This is directly after MC 1 and in the distance one can clearly see passenger cars that are behind the signal towers on the Stemmons line and then must be on a main track near the parking lot.  These are the passenger cars seen in Bell and Bond.  The timing of this photo is a second or two after MC 1.

McIntyre 3, MC 3, is not a McIntyre photo.  Richard Trask of Pictures of the Pain fame says it is.  I dispute this because I can not see how he left this location and got to the Stemmons/Continental Avenue area in time to take MC 3.

The timing of this photo is based on measuring the distance from the Grassy Knoll via Elm and the Stemmons exit ramp to here at Continental Avenue on the Stemmons Freewy.  This distance is roughly 2016 feet.  Applying math to figure out how long it would it take to drive this distance at an average speed of 70 mph would be 5280 X 70 = 369,000 feet.  369,000 feet divided by 60 minutes = 6160 feet per minute.  This divided into the original 2016 feet gives one 33 seconds to reach this area.

In the background we see two train segments.  It is impossible to say more than freight cars are visible in the right hand (picture left) train.  This can’t be matched to anything else.  It is not on the Stemmons line but on a main track line near the railroad yards.  You can see distance between the Stemmons line and the main track line.  This could be the non-existent train that most people think was not in Dealey Plaza.  It could be the train that J. C. White spoke of on the Bridge.  If you apply a speed of perhaps 20 or 25 mph for this train leaving the Triple Underpass it could have reached this location to be in sync with the p. limo as seen.  It might be the Ghost Train.

The other two train cars are on the Stemmons and may or may not relate to the other train photos.

Edited November 18, 2020 by John Butler

[Chris Bristow]

John, check out the image on the right. The position of the 3 Pullman cars are marked by the 3 long red lines. Based on all the different photos and films(Nix too) that is where they sat. All the images of passenger cars in Hughes, MC2, Bond, Nix, Allen are of these 3 cars.
 The image in your last post that shows the line of sight back to the Stemmons & continental Ave lands a couple blocks short of Continental ave. Continental is the next major street North.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Chris Bristow said:

John, check out the image on the right. The position of the 3 Pullman cars are marked by the 3 long red lines. Based on all the different photos and films(Nix too) that is where they sat. All the images of passenger cars in Hughes, MC2, Bond, Nix, Allen are of these 3 cars.
 The image in your last post that shows the line of sight back to the Stemmons & continental Ave lands a couple blocks short of Continental ave. Continental is the next major street North.

Chris,

Thanks again.  I'll do that but will not be able to reply for the next couple of days. Graphics look good.  

Are you suggesting that the 3 cars in the last left hand graphic are the cars seen by Bell and Bond?  I thought of Nix and Muchmore, but forgot to check them out.

"The image in your last post that shows the line of sight back to the Stemmons & continental Ave lands a couple blocks short of Continental ave. Continental is the next major street North."

I thought that might be the case but was looking for a spot the photographer could be at on the other side of the Stemmons to make that shot work.  It seems to cut midway through that barren area in the photo.

If you put your position for the photographer here then please repost.  Thanks.

Edited November 19, 2020 by John Butler

[Chris Bristow]

20 hours ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

Thanks again.  I'll do that but will not be able to reply for the next couple of days. Graphics look good.  

Are you suggesting that the 3 cars in the last left hand graphic are the cars seen by Bell and Bond?  I thought of Nix and Muchmore, but forgot to check them out.

"The image in your last post that shows the line of sight back to the Stemmons & continental Ave lands a couple blocks short of Continental ave. Continental is the next major street North."

I thought that might be the case but was looking for a spot the photographer could be at on the other side of the Stemmons to make that shot work.  It seems to cut midway through that barren area in the photo.

If you put your position for the photographer here then please repost.  Thanks.

John, Bowers building is visible in the Stemmons photo directly above Greer's head. Directly above that is The Annex Building. The center of Bowers building/Tower lines up with the third set of Windows from the left on the Annex Building. Draw line of sight from that third set of windows and through the center of Bowers Tower. That will give you the completely accurate line of sight that leads to Continental Street a couple blocks north of the point that you have now. 

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

John, Bowers building is visible in the Stemmons photo directly above Greer's head. Directly above that is The Annex Building. The center of Bowers building/Tower lines up with the third set of Windows from the left on the Annex Building. Draw line of sight from that third set of windows and through the center of Bowers Tower. That will give you the completely accurate line of sight that leads to Continental Street a couple blocks north of the point that you have now. 

Chris,

I finally got google earth to show Continental Avenue.  As soon as I am back wth my computer rather than this Ipad I will post the correct view.  Thanks for that.  I am not to concerned with strict accuracy.  I will use the north face of the TSBD for the origin.

[John Butler]

Chris,

Here is an interesting notion.  Could the guy standing on the truck bed or vehicle see almost everything in Dealey Plaza, Elm Street, Triple Underpass, and Stemmons Freeway.  Including McIntyre, the photog who took MC 3, and the guys shown in MC 3, could they be spotters/controllers/filmers.  Could the assassination crew be like the Nazis and want a complete record?

It looks like from that elevated position that might be possible, particularly with binoculars or telephoto lens.  They had cameras   Across the street Al Volkland is alleged to have taken this photo.  Info from Pictures Of The Pain.

Edited November 20, 2020 by John Butler