J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?

[Mark Knight]

Duke, I was simply using the Demjanjuk case to illustrate my son's point...while I don't agree with him, I can understand where he's coming from. I'm afraid that my son's response is similar to what one might expect from the current crop of prosecutors out there, that pragmaticism might overrule justice in a case such as JFK's...not to mention that the government never likes to admit that it was wrong.

But I believe that if we can identify JFK's killer and prosecute him and any conspirators, justice might still be served. [sorry, Tom Purvis, but I'm not convinced that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the fatal shots were fired; for him to have been a patsy, it would merely have to be POSSIBLE that he could have done the deed...and he certainly was capable.]

[sorry, Tom Purvis, but I'm not convinced that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the fatal shots were fired; for him to have been a patsy, it would merely have to be POSSIBLE that he could have done the deed...and he certainly was capable.]

Well, since I was in Athens, Ohio at the time, rest assured that I do not "know" if he was or if he was not.

Just that as of yet, I have found absollutely no other viable suspect, and ALL ROADS lead directly back to LHO.

And, many of these roads were not meant to be found!

Nevertheless, even with this, I have to stick with what was stated in my original 1994 draft manuscript which dealt only with the first shot/CE399.

If you will recall.

Tom, I think that perhaps you and I actually are on the same page. Oswald WAS capable of committing the crime, and he was connected to the acquisition of A Mannlicher-Carcano, but as you state, unless new evidence is found, we simply can't put him in THAT window with THAT rifle at the time the shots were fired.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Duke, I was simply using the Demjanjuk case to illustrate my son's point...while I don't agree with him, I can understand where he's coming from. I'm afraid that my son's response is similar to what one might expect from the current crop of prosecutors out there, that pragmaticism might overrule justice in a case such as JFK's...not to mention that the government never likes to admit that it was wrong.

But I believe that if we can identify JFK's killer and prosecute him and any conspirators, justice might still be served. [sorry, Tom Purvis, but I'm not convinced that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the fatal shots were fired; for him to have been a patsy, it would merely have to be POSSIBLE that he could have done the deed...and he certainly was capable.]

[sorry, Tom Purvis, but I'm not convinced that Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the fatal shots were fired; for him to have been a patsy, it would merely have to be POSSIBLE that he could have done the deed...and he certainly was capable.]

Well, since I was in Athens, Ohio at the time, rest assured that I do not "know" if he was or if he was not.

Just that as of yet, I have found absollutely no other viable suspect, and ALL ROADS lead directly back to LHO.

And, many of these roads were not meant to be found!

Nevertheless, even with this, I have to stick with what was stated in my original 1994 draft manuscript which dealt only with the first shot/CE399.

If you will recall.

Tom, I think that perhaps you and I actually are on the same page. Oswald WAS capable of committing the crime, and he was connected to the acquisition of A Mannlicher-Carcano, but as you state, unless new evidence is found, we simply can't put him in THAT window with THAT rifle at the time the shots were fired.

Mark;

Perhaps as a result of having personal knowledge as to how the "games are played", one can rest assure

that whoever was playing the pawn (LHO) was sufficiently smart enough to:

A. Make him the designated "rabbit" in which the hounds would chase him.

B. Convince him that he could accomplish this and still make it safely to Xanadu.

C. Insure that he "permanently" kept his mouth closed in regards to who was yanking his chains.

D. All of the above.

[William Kelly]

dup

I'D LIKE TO FILE A FORMAL PROTEST AGAINST EVAN BURTON FOR PUTTING EVAN MARSHALL ON DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION FOR NOT HAVING A PHOTO AVATAR, AS ALL IT WILL DO IS KEEP EVAN MARSHALL FROM POSTING ANYMORE.

DID ANYONE COMPLAIN, OR IS THIS JUST THE HIGH SCHOOL HALL MARSHALL EXERTING AUTHORITY?

I DON'T THINK A POLICE OFFICER FROM ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST DANGEROUS CITIES SHOULD HAVE TO POST HIS PHOTO IN ORDER TO CONTRIBUTE TO THIS FORUM, OR HAVE TO ASK FOR AN EXEPTION. IT SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD.

BILL KELLY

We need to remember that nothing effects cops worse than the death of another officer. I was on the job in Detroit 1969-1989 and the death of a cop placed at Oswalds feet in 1963 should have guaranteed Oswald DRT (Dead Right There) instead of arrested.

Hi Evan!

I sent you a message over two weeks ago about the requirement for an avatar photo. The PM trackers says it was read on 20 April. So far, I haven't seen an acceptable avatar photo nor been advised that John S that you have an exemption. Other people have been placed under moderation for this, therefore any further posts by you will be made invisible until an avatar is provided or John advises us that an exemption has been granted.

If you need any assistance in uploading an avatar, please contact one of the mods or admins and we'd be more than happy to help. If you feel there is a reason you should be exempted from the requirement, please contact John Simkin directly.

Thanks!

Evan Burton

[Chuck Robbins]

Oswald did not carry a rifle, assembled or disassembled, into the TSBD.

Oswald did not fire a rifle from the TSBD.

It is unproven that Oswald owned a rifle.

Oswald was manipulated into being a patsy.

All official evidence implicating Oswald is likely false.

Jack

It has not been proven, to my satisfaction, that any rifle was fired inside the TSBD that day.

What I find curious is that Tippett was killed within minutes of the announcement that JFK had died.

Was that the incentive for his death, needing to "prove" that Oswald had the capacity to murder JFK, because he had the capacity to kill a cop?

[Duke Lane]

... What I find curious is that Tippett was killed within minutes of the announcement that JFK had died. Was that the incentive for his death, needing to "prove" that Oswald had the capacity to murder JFK, because he had the capacity to kill a cop?

One would think that, a President having been killed in public in a major city in a small park surrounded largely by railroad yards, that an intense police investigation of that area would result in the eventual discovery and apprehension of one or more of the shooters. How long would it be, under the expected circumstances, before police would start prying open the trunks (boots) of the cars in the parking lot, concerns for damage to private property be damned? There were nearly 100 cops in that three-acre parcel after the shooting; one would imagine that it probably wouldn't be long before one of them got bored and did something smart.

So, what do you do to create a diversion significant enough to get half-a-hundred cops away from the area? And how do you make sure that "someone is picked up quickly to throw the public off?" A fire's not going to do it, nor will a bank robbery. A riot might, but where are you going to get so many people riled up over nothing so quickly? Kill a cop on the other hand ...?

The fact is that, prior to JFK's shooting, DPD dispatch had pulled more than half of the cops out of the Oak Cliff area, and continued to do so even after they supposedly "realized they were draining resources" from the area (the rationale for having sent Tippit into central Oak Cliff). No other area of town was so depleted, either voluntarily or by direction.

There were no less than two on-duty cops who were in Oak Cliff immediately after the downtown shooting, both of whom so informing the dispatcher, one along the route Tippit took from his normal beat to "central Oak Cliff," and the other at the end of that route.

The officer who normally patrolled the district where Tippit was shot was in the district, at lunch in Luby's cafeteria on Jefferson Boulevard, the only on-duty patrol officer who took lunch at the time, in his case less than five minutes after the downtown shooting. Despite knowing about the emergency, and despite moving so many OC cops into the downtown area, dispatch okayed the break.

JD Tippit was "part of the conspiracy," an unwitting part: he was the diversion. It worked.

[Mark Knight]

Duke, that's the most intelligent idea I've read all day.

And it would explain the witnesses hearing Tippit's shooter saying, "Poor dumb cop." In the context you suggest, the statement makes a lot more sense. He just happened to be the cop who was "hit," when the intention was to kill SOME cop, not necessarily THIS cop. In my mind, having the shooting of a cop occur as part of the plot--which I hadn't previously considered--would have been a stroke of pure evil genius, totally unanticipated by cops and a godsend for anyone looking to escape from police scrutiny in the plaza.

Kinda like a strategy the CIA might have employed during a coup d'etat in some banana republic.

[Robert Walker]

Duke,

I would argue that the murder of Tippet played less of a role in getting cops out of Dealey (even though that's a great side benefit) and more of a role in getting cops TO Oak Cliff, because if Oswald isn't killed or captured immediately after the assassination, then there is no patsy, no lone gunman. It is correct that a fire or a bank robbery wouldn't do it, it had to be something of greater importance, and something potentially related to the assassination. The killing of a cop that soon after the assassination could be interpreted by the police as an act of panic and perhaps related to the assassination, which would then result in a large police response to the area.

So the sacrificial killing of Tippit accomplished three things for the conspirators, it brought the police en masse to Oak Cliff to capture/kill the designated patsy, it helped establish the frame up of Oswald as a killer desperate to escape his crime, and it got the cops out of Dealey.

Going one step further, since Oswald is the designated patsy I would also suggest that he was monitored by the conspirators at every turn, because the success of this conspiracy had to be the speed of the identification and capture of Oswald, because if Oswald somehow manages to slip out of Oak Cliff, and evades capture, the conspiracy is blown. Oswald can't be given an opportunity to defend himself publicly or slip into the woodwork.

Whatever was supposed to happen with/to Oswald in Oak Cliff did not transpire, and in as such, Tippit had to be sacrificed to get police into the area to apprehend/kill Oswald, perhaps as plan "b".

Rob

... What I find curious is that Tippett was killed within minutes of the announcement that JFK had died. Was that the incentive for his death, needing to "prove" that Oswald had the capacity to murder JFK, because he had the capacity to kill a cop?

One would think that, a President having been killed in public in a major city in a small park surrounded largely by railroad yards, that an intense police investigation of that area would result in the eventual discovery and apprehension of one or more of the shooters. How long would it be, under the expected circumstances, before police would start prying open the trunks (boots) of the cars in the parking lot, concerns for damage to private property be damned? There were nearly 100 cops in that three-acre parcel after the shooting; one would imagine that it probably wouldn't be long before one of them got bored and did something smart.

So, what do you do to create a diversion significant enough to get half-a-hundred cops away from the area? And how do you make sure that "someone is picked up quickly to throw the public off?" A fire's not going to do it, nor will a bank robbery. A riot might, but where are you going to get so many people riled up over nothing so quickly? Kill a cop on the other hand ...?

The fact is that, prior to JFK's shooting, DPD dispatch had pulled more than half of the cops out of the Oak Cliff area, and continued to do so even after they supposedly "realized they were draining resources" from the area (the rationale for having sent Tippit into central Oak Cliff). No other area of town was so depleted, either voluntarily or by direction.

There were no less than two on-duty cops who were in Oak Cliff immediately after the downtown shooting, both of whom so informing the dispatcher, one along the route Tippit took from his normal beat to "central Oak Cliff," and the other at the end of that route.

The officer who normally patrolled the district where Tippit was shot was in the district, at lunch in Luby's cafeteria on Jefferson Boulevard, the only on-duty patrol officer who took lunch at the time, in his case less than five minutes after the downtown shooting. Despite knowing about the emergency, and despite moving so many OC cops into the downtown area, dispatch okayed the break.

JD Tippit was "part of the conspiracy," an unwitting part: he was the diversion. It worked.

[Jim Feemster]

I disagree. In order to have the Tippit killing diversion work when needed there would have had to be numerous " Tippit Killers " roaming Oakcliff streets and this even wouldn't have been a guarantee that Tip would have driven a particular street at the needed time.

If Tippit's shooting was to be diversionary it would have to be triggered the moment Oswald wasn't gunned down at the Depository. Was it? If there was a plan " B " then someone had to push the button quickly to set it in motion.

I think what might have happened was that Tippit was supposed to meet Oswald on Tenth street and he knew Oswald .

Tippit was to kill the murderer of the president and be a hero like Ruby thought he was going to be after killing Oswald. The imposter says through the window of the squad car, " Oswald should be coming down the street any time now. If you want to get out of the car we can wait together and I'll be your witness that he drew first." But when Tip exits the car without alarm and without drawing his gun the imposter gets the drop on him and kills him dead. Then the imposter heads off to lead the cops to the TT so they can kill Oswald there.

So the purpose of killing Tip wasn't diversionary but imparative to lead the cops to Oswald so he could be gunned down in a dark place to give plotters time to construct the story line based on the outcome of events.

It was this imposter who was thrown into the squad car in the alley behind the TT having accomplised his mission.

After all, the bad guys knew Oswald was going to be at the TT looking for his handlers not roaming Oakcliff streets.

Long story - short. Diversion ....NO.

Lead the cops to where they knew Oswald was........YES.

jim

[Robert Walker]

Tippit was to kill the murderer of the president and be a hero like Ruby thought he was going to be after killing Oswald.

...I would suggest that Ruby didn't kill Oswald to be a hero. Ruby killing Oswald was plan "c" (or whatever letter fits) since Oswald wasn't popped at Dealey or in Oak Cliff. The idea of Ruby being the "patriotic american" vanishes when he corrects Wade on the "Fair Play for Cuba" flub, because there is no way a Dallas nightclub owner would ever know of an obscure little group like the FPFC. Ruby is part of the plot to kill Oswald, perhaps not totally happy about it, perhaps even after the fact, but he was directed to do this.

The imposter says through the window of the squad car, "Oswald should be coming down the street any time now. If you want to get out of the car we can wait together and I'll be your witness that he drew first." But when Tip exits the car without alarm and without drawing his gun the imposter gets the drop on him and kills him dead. Then the imposter heads off to lead the cops to the TT so they can kill Oswald there.

...does this imply that Tippit was part of the conspiracy, or that the "imposter" used Tippit as a mean to an ends? Are you suggesting that the imposter and Tippit knew each other? Isn't also possible that the "imposter" also could have approached an innocent Tippit in the cop car, made some quick comment about the assassination, and then pointed out a suspicious looking Oswald heading his way, before capping him?

So the purpose of killing Tip wasn't diversionary but imparative to lead the cops to Oswald so he could be gunned down in a dark place to give plotters time to construct the story line based on the outcome of events.

...yes. Oswald is in Oak Cliff. Oswald needs to be dead or in custody. All the cops are at Dealey Plaza. Oswald has to be got before he leaves Oak Cliff.

It was this imposter who was thrown into the squad car in the alley behind the TT having accomplised his mission.

...I would surmise that this individual was the person monitoring Oswald after the assassination. I cannot believe for a second that if the success of the assassination (for the conspirators) rests on Oswald being killed or captured in short order after the assassination, that they would have left him out of their sights for even a second.

After all, the bad guys knew Oswald was going to be at the TT looking for his handlers not roaming Oakcliff streets.

...how do we know this? How do we know that Oswald was even "supposed" to go to Oak Cliff after the assassination, let alone that the TT was the contact point? I would think that after all the careful planning and successful execution of the assassination of a popular president, that the conspirators would not leave that to chance, because Oswald is their whole ball of wax! They must know that Oswald will at some point realize he has been set up as a patsy, and when he does, all bets are off! Oswald must be under surveillance th entire time. So, when does Oswald realize that he has been set up as the assassin? I guess it depends on what role you believe Oswald may or may not have played in the events of the assassination.

Lead the cops to where they knew Oswald was........YES.

...absolutely

jim

[Duke Lane]

Duke, that's the most intelligent idea I've read all day. And it would explain the witnesses hearing Tippit's shooter saying, "Poor dumb cop." In the context you suggest, the statement makes a lot more sense. He just happened to be the cop who was "hit," when the intention was to kill SOME cop, not necessarily THIS cop. In my mind, having the shooting of a cop occur as part of the plot--which I hadn't previously considered--would have been a stroke of pure evil genius, totally unanticipated by cops and a godsend for anyone looking to escape from police scrutiny in the plaza. ...

Unfortunately, I would have to say that the intent was to kill THIS cop. I don't know whether he'd ticked someone off, if he was just considered someone whose demise wouldn't affect the department significantly, someone sappy enough to fall into the trap, or just what he did to "deserve" to die, but he was most certainly "selected."

I've done a very detailed analysis of the directed and undirected movements of police patrol units immediately before and after the shooting downtown and up to the time of Tippit's death, which was at about 1:05. Nearly every single patrol in Oak Cliff was removed or out of action, save for two, when Tippit and Nelson were reassigned into central OC.

One of those two was William D. Mentzel, who normally patrolled the two COC districts and was at lunch in the district - at the Luby's on Jefferson Blvd, two blocks from the Top Ten Record Shop - who, either despite not knowing of any problems at all in town (he went Code 5 - out to eat - within two minutes of the downtown shooting) tried "repeatedly" to reach police headquarters and finally left (a half hour later!) without finishing his lunch, or who knowing there was a problem in town (why else was he trying repeatedly to reach headquarters while not eating his lunch?), remained inside the cafeteria until after 1:05. As soon as he got on the radio, he - and not Tippit - was assigned to cover an accident at 10th & Davis, where he remained incommunicado until 1:22, not even responding, verbally or physically, to the "Signal 19 involving a police officer" in his very own district.

Absolutely normal behavior on an absolutely normal day.

By 12:34, a patrol from the east part of town had gone missing: dispatch called for him and even asked if anyone else knew where he was. No response. Then he says he's going to be out of his car for a short while, which dispatch acknowledged while asking his location. "East Jefferson," said the patrolman. The only place there is a "Jefferson" anything in Dallas is Jefferson Boulevard in Oak Cliff. Dispatch acknowledged this without asking why he was there, so far from his regular patrol, and without ever suggesting that he make himself available as an additional patrol in the only area of the city that simultaneously was being drained of police resources and would be the only one that required such special attention as to reassign an officer - Tippit - to cover a patrol area other than his own.

Meanwhile, another officer from the Northwest Division, when asked his location, replied that he was at "105 Corinth," and was told to "remain in his district" by dispatch ... despite the fact that "105 Corinth" was also in Oak Cliff and not in his regular patrol some 10 miles away. That location also happened to be about midway along the most direct route Tippit could have taken - and most likely did - from "Kiest and Bonnie View" to "8th and Lancaster," and it just so happened that this officer radioed that he was going to go downtown only a short time after being told to remain in his district ... at just about the time Tippit would have driven by 105 Corinth based on his going at about the speed limit after being told, at Kiest and Bonnie View, to report to COC. There is no evidence - including any report by him - that he actually went downtown, and he was not reminded to stay in his own district despite having been told to do so about five minutes earlier, nor - there being only one 105 Corinth in Dallas (in Oak Cliff) - was he told to reinforce the depleted patrols in that area.

Remember: it was on account of dispatchers' supposed realization that they'd been pulling cops out of that area that Tippit was ostensibly sent into COC to begin with. Interestingly, too, as soon as they'd "realized" that and gave Tippit his orders, the very next thing they did was to assign another Oak Cliff patrol into downtown.

Oak Cliff was not the only part of town from which resources had been drained, whether by direction of dispatchers or their own volunteering to go downtown, yet it was the only one that anyone felt had a need for special coverage "in case of a major accident or robbery." Apparently, it was a well-known fact that people who shoot at Presidents only flee to the south since no other part of town was put on any kind of similar "alert." And - I'm sure quite coincidentally - Officer Mentzel was the only patrol officer in the entire city who was given a lunch break at that time, within just a couple of minutes of the shooting of the President of the United States less than five miles from his patrol district. If dispatch didn't mean to give him a lunch break (despite their acknowledgement of it), they also did not try to contact him at any time in the next half-hour until such time as he called in himself.

Tippit, incidentally, was called and reassigned within one minute of the time - two transmissions after - the first officer reported that he was (in position?) on East Jefferson. Why would Tippit be needed to report to COC when there was another officer already in COC, or at least a whole lot closer?

A game was afoot.

[Duke Lane]

I would argue that the murder of Tippet played less of a role in getting cops out of Dealey (even though that's a great side benefit) and more of a role in getting cops TO Oak Cliff, because if Oswald isn't killed or captured immediately after the assassination, then there is no patsy, no lone gunman. It is correct that a fire or a bank robbery wouldn't do it, it had to be something of greater importance, and something potentially related to the assassination. The killing of a cop that soon after the assassination could be interpreted by the police as an act of panic and perhaps related to the assassination, which would then result in a large police response to the area.

So the sacrificial killing of Tippit accomplished three things for the conspirators, it brought the police en masse to Oak Cliff to capture/kill the designated patsy, it helped establish the frame up of Oswald as a killer desperate to escape his crime, and it got the cops out of Dealey.

I have no argument with any of that, but might add that the killing of a cop at any time is bound to bring a significant response. It may have been larger and faster under the circumstances - over 40 law enforcement types in OC, MOF, not including constables whose shop was only a few blocks away at 12th & Beckley - but something to be expected nevertheless.

(My cousin, a cop in a city about the size of Dallas, was shot and killed trying to break up a bar fight while he was off-duty. The response was huge.)

Going one step further, since Oswald is the designated patsy I would also suggest that he was monitored by the conspirators at every turn, because the success of this conspiracy had to be the speed of the identification and capture of Oswald, because if Oswald somehow manages to slip out of Oak Cliff, and evades capture, the conspiracy is blown. Oswald can't be given an opportunity to defend himself publicly or slip into the woodwork.

Whatever was supposed to happen with/to Oswald in Oak Cliff did not transpire, and in as such, Tippit had to be sacrificed to get police into the area to apprehend/kill Oswald, perhaps as plan "b".

Here I would only ask what Oswald could've done - or what could've been done to him - that would have effectively short-circuited and ultimately called off the manhunt downtown (or after whatever was to be done by/to him). What "Plan A" could've even come close to accomplishing what "Plan B" obviously did? If Oswald was monitored or "handled" before the Tippit shooting, it was to keep him under control until an auspicious time. See my post above to see how the plan was put immediately to work, even before Oswald could've gotten home to change. There wasn't much time for anything else to "transpire" before instituting a "backup" plan.

I disagree. In order to have the Tippit killing diversion work when needed there would have had to be numerous " Tippit Killers " roaming Oakcliff streets and this even wouldn't have been a guarantee that Tip would have driven a particular street at the needed time. If Tippit's shooting was to be diversionary it would have to be triggered the moment Oswald wasn't gunned down at the Depository. Was it? If there was a plan " B " then someone had to push the button quickly to set it in motion.

Jim, see my post above: within two minutes of the downtown shooting, the regular COC patrol officer signed out to lunch with no protest from dispatch. Within five minutes, an officer from the Southeast Division was sought. Less than a minute after he reported in as being on East Jefferson, Tippit was ordered to move into COC. All the rest of the OC patrols had been ordered out of the area.

According to one former OC cop, it was "common knowledge" at the station that JDT had girlfriend in Oak Cliff living "on the south side of Tenth." According to William Scoggins, who was an habitue of the domino club down Patton Street for lunch, remarked that he'd "seen [Tippit] all the time," and thus paid little attention to him as he passed on Tenth. One of the Davis sisters-in-law apparently saw him enough that she thought he lived two doors from her: "he was shot in front of the hedgerow between the house next door [to us] and the house that he lived in." Jimmy Smith, who lived down the street, made affidavit that Tippit was frequently in the neighborhood and was known as "Officer Friendly."

Is that enough to "guarantee" that JD would go there? Maybe not, but if you take a guy out of his regular beat and put him near his girlfriend with nothing to do but "remain at large for any emergency that comes in" - that is, patrol at your leisure - at around the same time that he may have made a habit of stopping by there, chances might be good that he would. He was last heard from at 12:54, only a couple of minutes from there. Ten minutes later, he was called but did not respond: was it to check to see if he was still alive? Whatever he was being called for - an emergency that came in? - no other patrols were subsequently contacted to handle it.

At 1:04, he might well have been inside the Top Ten Record Shop (whose operators also said that Tippit frequently came by to use the phone ... to call the girlfriend, let her know he was coming or soon would be?) or walking back to his car; it would only take him a minute or so to get to 10th & Patton from there.

If you consider the street encounter in the context of his knowing whomever was walking on the street - it not being Oswald - it makes a lot of sense: here he is, on his way to a tryst, slowing down and pulling over to the curb when someone he knows - and doesn't want to let on that he's heading where he's going to - turns around and looks him in the eye. Oops: caught. Best to make it look like I was stopping anyway cuz I recognized him. A little ways out in the street, still nose-in to the curb. The guy leaning on the car, huh? I can't hear you, get out of the car. Sure, pal, I was pulling over to talk with you anyway, what're brings you to this neighborhood ... in front of the hedgerow just before he got to "the house that he lived in."

I think what might have happened was that Tippit was supposed to meet Oswald on Tenth street and he knew Oswald. Tippit was to kill the murderer of the president and be a hero like Ruby thought he was going to be after killing Oswald. The imposter says through the window of the squad car, " Oswald should be coming down the street any time now. If you want to get out of the car we can wait together and I'll be your witness that he drew first." But when Tip exits the car without alarm and without drawing his gun the imposter gets the drop on him and kills him dead. Then the imposter heads off to lead the cops to the TT so they can kill Oswald there.

So the purpose of killing Tip wasn't diversionary but imparative to lead the cops to Oswald so he could be gunned down in a dark place to give plotters time to construct the story line based on the outcome of events.

It was this imposter who was thrown into the squad car in the alley behind the TT having accomplised his mission. After all, the bad guys knew Oswald was going to be at the TT looking for his handlers not roaming Oakcliff streets.

Long story - short. Diversion ....NO.

Lead the cops to where they knew Oswald was........YES.

I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

If the idea was to have Tippit kill Oswald, why send Oswald to the theater instead of going where he was supposed to have gone to get killed? End result: Oswald is dead. Cop didn't have to die at the hand of someone else so that more cops could be called to kill Oswald somewhere else: same end result either way. If the supposed presidential assassin was dead on a bright street or in a dark theater, what difference would it have made as long as he was dead? What purpose would there have been in killing the cop who was supposed to kill Oswald just so someone else would?

Tippit's murder was something that "hit the cops where it hurt" and guaranteed a strong reaction, numerically speaking. Any cop who didn't feel his job in DP was "essential" - as 40 of them did not - would respond. It might have been seen as "tied in" with the downtown shooting, a result of someone escaping and panicking when confronted by an officer (tho' Jim Leavelle or some other detective at the TSBD at the time said that they didn't have any reason to suspect a tie-in at the time).

There wouldn't have been any kind of a reaction if the police had been called about Oswald sneaking into the theater without paying, but of course lots of other things wouldn't have applied, like Oswald ducking into the shoe store, Brewer having any reason to think him suspicious or to follow him down the street, Julia Postal and her boss being out on the street instead of in the office and box office, no sirens going up and down Jefferson, etc., so Oswald, if he was going into the theater at all, would've paid and no further attention given him (some say he did just that at about 1:00).

Whether cops' attention was diverted from Dealey Plaza or diverted toward Oswald, it is still a diversion. It pulled 40 or more cops out of Dealey Plaza. It got them all - and 20 more sheriff's deputies and an unknown number of constables - into the area where Oswald was. It worked.

Whether those 40+ cops would've done things like search the trunks (boots) of cars in the parking lot or spent more time getting more people's identification or kept other vehicles from leaving the area, who knows? It's moot because they weren't there anymore.

[David Andrews]

I think what might have happened was that Tippit was supposed to meet Oswald on Tenth street and he knew Oswald .

Tippit was to kill the murderer of the president and be a hero like Ruby thought he was going to be after killing Oswald. The imposter says through the window of the squad car, " Oswald should be coming down the street any time now. If you want to get out of the car we can wait together and I'll be your witness that he drew first." But when Tip exits the car without alarm and without drawing his gun the imposter gets the drop on him and kills him dead. Then the imposter heads off to lead the cops to the TT so they can kill Oswald there.

Might this be the reason, or a hypothesis, for why two fleeing men are recalled by one witness? Might Oswald and the imposter have met near the corner of tenth, then encountered Tippit? Might Oswald and Tippit have rendezvou'd at Tenth, then the imposter entered and killed Tippit?

Why meet at Tenth intentionally, when Oswald or the other avoided the patrol car that tooted the horn for him outside the rooming house?

[Duke Lane]

...I would suggest that Ruby didn't kill Oswald to be a hero. Ruby killing Oswald was plan "c" (or whatever letter fits) since Oswald wasn't popped at Dealey or in Oak Cliff. The idea of Ruby being the "patriotic american" vanishes when he corrects Wade on the "Fair Play for Cuba" flub, because there is no way a Dallas nightclub owner would ever know of an obscure little group like the FPFC. Ruby is part of the plot to kill Oswald, perhaps not totally happy about it, perhaps even after the fact, but he was directed to do this.

By Harry Olsen.

...I would surmise that this individual was the person monitoring Oswald after the assassination. I cannot believe for a second that if the success of the assassination (for the conspirators) rests on Oswald being killed or captured in short order after the assassination, that they would have left him out of their sights for even a second.

But it appears that they did.

I'd once considered the possibility - and have not entirely discarded it 100% - that LHO was grabbed before getting out of the TSBD, perhaps shortly after the 2nd floor encounter. What argues against this is Geraldean Reid recognizing him as he went through the office pool area, coke in hand; but it doesn't entirely eliminate the possibility since that's the last anyone saw of him for sure: even the reporter who was looking for a phone did not positively identify Oswald who, of course, he would not then have known. Even still, he was at best not far out of the building, where again, nobody saw him afterward.

I thought maybe Mary Bledsoe had not actually seen him, that her avoidance of even looking at him (for kicking him out of her house so unceremoniously, probably, but not because she owed him money, which it seems she did not) might've led her to merely think that she'd seen him after the fact and in the spotlight of the investigation. I went over all of this in considerable detail in a thread that I think had something to do with Oswald's "escape from the TSBD."

After working with an eye toward discrediting her testimony by her getting details wrong, etc., in turn in an attempt to figure out how else Oswald had gotten anywhere, I instead came to the conclusion that she had, in fact, seen the same man - presumably Oswald - who had boarded William Whaley's cab. This was based on the description of the clothing that she had made and which Whaley had corroborated ... not in his testimony, but in a statement made over the weekend.

Whaley had sat next to Oswald for several minutes and would seem unlikely to not recognize him, even despite later claims that his statement was drawn up for his signature even before he'd viewed the line-up, concerns that his having seen Oswald on TV the night before might've influenced his identification, and of course Oswald's demeanor during the line-up ("you could've picked him out just by his yelling at the police," etc.). Facial characteristics aside, LHO was not wearing the brown shirt on Saturday, and it's as likely as anything else that Whaley did notice the shirt, just as he noticed the wrist bracelet.

In any case, Bledsoe alone among the bus riders that afternoon noticed the same shirt that the next person to see Oswald also noticed. Since she'd boarded Oswald for a week and tried - often unsuccessfully - to engage him in conversation, one can presume that she did, in fact, know what he looked like.

His getting onto the bus mid-block (luckily) smacks of an intent to throw off any pursuers he might've had behind him on Elm; his getting off at the last second behind the female passenger only a couple of blocks away and not at street-side, could likewise be interpreted in similar fashion. (I was once taught to do a similar thing, and it does work.)

How his trail might've been picked up again later is an open question. If the whole "car 207" (or 107 or 170) episode went down as described by Earlene Roberts (who was, after all, more intent upon the television than the regularly-antisocial boarder's activities, and was blind in one eye to boot), it doesn't seem likely that an Oswald running from the cops would exit out of the front door where they might still be waiting, much less follow in the same direction a cop car - even one that was not looking for him - had gone; rather, one would think that he'd duck out of a back door through other yards or the alley behind the homes there rather than directly onto Beckley Street.

Being so exposed - he presumably had no way of knowing when or from where a police cruiser might appear - it is difficult to reconcile this individual with "Oswald on the run," "escaping" from the TSBD after having shot the President of the United States, and later shooting another cop with little if any provocation when he appeared on the street. "Cool, calm and collected" at one moment, "wild and crazy" the next.

Back to the point of letting him out of their sight, however, presuming it was indeed Oswald on the bus and in the cab, then he got out of nearly everyone's sight at least for 30 minutes. If he hadn't gotten out of their sight during that excursion, and it was him in the boarding house, then again he was let out of sight and might well have ducked out the back door to get away.

Two things mitigate this perplexity: first, the story of Mack Pate's mechanic seeing Oswald or someone resembling resembling him south on Davis Street in the back seat of a red sedan, and second, the story of ATF agent Frank Ellsworth who, upon seeing Oswald at DPD, thought that he was instead another man who'd been the subject of Ellsworth's investigations into gun-running, and who'd been in custody less than a month earlier on firearms charges. That particular individual was coincidentally one of only two sources of Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition in Dallas.

If Oswald looked enough like that man to at least momentarily fool a federal agent who'd been investigating him, could that man in turn have looked so much like Oswald as to fool people who "knew" him (but could not be considered "close" to him), Mary Bledsoe (who'd known him but a week and who averted her gaze from him, but described his clothing accurately) and Earlene Roberts (who'd known him only a month, was blind in one eye, and paying more attention to the TV than him)?

That not to even mention the possibility - it goes without saying - that the resemblance was close enough such that witnesses to "Oswald's" actions misidentified Oswald for this man?

The possibility exists ... but there remains the question of "where did Oswald go then?"

This whole "second Oswald" scenario plays out quite well, not only with respect to Oswald's shooting practices, etc., but also with the "extra cops in Oak Cliff" scenario. It likewise can be tied neatly into the "Car 10 Where Are You?" scenario involving a cop at the Gloco station, not far from East Jefferson. But those are all for another time....

[Duke Lane]

Why meet at Tenth intentionally, when Oswald or the other avoided the patrol car that tooted the horn for him outside the rooming house?

When you work out the details of the Tippit shooting and the times that people gave, you'll find that it occurred long before Oswald could have gotten there without being in a car, and then only just barely. Tippit was killed within three minutes of Oswald supposedly being at the rooming house, according to the official reconstruction ... which chose to have Tippit "killed" just before Tom Bowley made the "citizen" announcement over the radio, despite all sorts of evidence to the contrary.

That's why it doesn't matter "which way Oswald got to 10th & Patton" because, no matter which way he presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast.

[Robert Walker]

Back to the point of letting him out of their sight, however, presuming it was indeed Oswald on the bus and in the cab, then he got out of nearly everyone's sight at least for 30 minutes. If he hadn't gotten out of their sight during that excursion, and it was him in the boarding house, then again he was let out of sight and might well have ducked out the back door to get away.

I think that it would have been easy enough for Oswald to be "trailed" on the bus/cab by capable agents. However, if he does give them the slip at the boarding house, by slipping out the back, for example, that could be the crux for popping Tippit, because then the resultant manhunt has a very reasonable chance of sweeping Oswald up.

Since Oswald wasn't identified by name in the APB, and the description matched hundreds of folks all across Dallas (and it's not like they were looking specifically in Oak Cliff for the assassin) they had to know that Oswald was in Oak Cliff (even generally) to set the rest of the events in action.

It also depends on what/if any role Oswald had in the assassination. If Oswald was a pure patsy, not involved at all, but set up by folks familiar with his military/civilian record, AND the success of the plot rests soley on Oswald being identified as the assassin, then he has to be under surveillance at all times, because he could have simply left downtown and then gone to Lakewood, or the M-Streets or some other neighborhood and just chilled out.

Oswald at some point realizes he's been set up as a patsy, and that he is not the trusted government agent he thinks he is (or is on the way to becoming). I wonder when he realized this?

Good stuff.