J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?

[David Andrews]

Why meet at Tenth intentionally, when Oswald or the other avoided the patrol car that tooted the horn for him outside the rooming house?

When you work out the details of the Tippit shooting and the times that people gave, you'll find that it occurred long before Oswald could have gotten there without being in a car, and then only just barely. Tippit was killed within three minutes of Oswald supposedly being at the rooming house, according to the official reconstruction ... which chose to have Tippit "killed" just before Tom Bowley made the "citizen" announcement over the radio, despite all sorts of evidence to the contrary.

That's why it doesn't matter "which way Oswald got to 10th & Patton" because, no matter which way he presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast.

Indeed - I've seen that worked out rather satifyingly on other Tippit pages on this site. A problem lately is that I'm working out of town this summer, and I only get to see the net "briefly" at work.

Why is Oswald the only TSBD employee to leave for the afternoon after the shooting? It may say something about the origins and affiliations of the other personnel there.

Edited July 3, 2009 by David Andrews

[Denis Pointing]

When you work out the details of the Tippit shooting and the times that people gave, you'll find that it occurred long before Oswald could have gotten there without being in a car, and then only just barely. Tippit was killed within three minutes of Oswald supposedly being at the rooming house, according to the official reconstruction ... which chose to have Tippit "killed" just before Tom Bowley made the "citizen" announcement over the radio, despite all sorts of evidence to the contrary.

That's why it doesn't matter "which way Oswald got to 10th & Patton" because, no matter which way he presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast.

Anyone attempting to create a definitive timeline for Oswald or Tippit regarding the murder time, based on witness testimony and statements are pursuing an exercise in futility. And any researcher who claims with such utter conviction that Tippit was killed "at about 1:05" and therefore "no matter which way he (Oswald) presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast" is, quite frankly, blowing hot air.

You're placing far too much faith on the totally unreliable Earline Roberts, whom even you admit was more interested in her T.V. The statement in her testimony "it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after, what time I wouldn't want to say." clearly shows the woman was far from sure what time Oswald arrived at the boarding house, she could easily have been as much as 5 minutes out. Which in itself completely shatters any attempt at a timeline.

To be fair the other witnesses don't really come off much better; Benavides says in his testimony "I imagine it was about 1 o'clock" which of course is impossible.

Then there's the testimony of Helen Markam, she witnessed the murder as she walked towards the scene. She first says, "I believe it was a little after 1" but when pressed for a more accurate time she says "I wouldn't be afraid to bet it was 6 or 7 minutes after 1". I don't know about anyone else but the words "I imagine" and "I wouldn't be afraid to bet" don't exactly fill me with confidence. The only truly accurate timeline Markham can give is that she left home at 1:00 to catch her bus at 1:15, she therefor witnessed the murder between these times.

The only witness who states a time with any real conviction is Bowly. He arrives on the scene at 1:10 and Tippit has already been gunned down. Bowley's conviction for that time is based on the fact that he looked at his watch on arrival, very sensible, this surely is a reliable witness indeed, trouble is what we don't know is how reliable his watch was. You yourself Duke, present a far more eloquent argument for not trusting Bowley's time piece than I ever could, post #4 here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6322

So, can we find anyone to collaborate Bowley's time? Well, not really. Virginia Davis gives an impossible time when she states "I wouldn't say for sure. But it was about 1:30 between 1:30 and 2". And William Scoqqins is almost as inaccurate when he states "Around 1:20 in the afternoon". We really shouldn't be too critical of the witnesses at the murder scene for their inaccurate guesses in trying to establish a time, they were understandably upset and confused. Perhaps we should should look for a timeline from people away from the murder scene, hopefully the two witnesses concerned wont be so distraught and unreliable, especially as one is a police officer. The other was Louis Cortinas, a sales clerk working at THE TOP 10 RECORD SHOP. Cortinas claims, and this is collaborated by the owner, that Tippet was in the store using the phone shortly before being shot. Cortinas also states that "Tippit had left (no more than 10 minutes) when I heard he had been shot on the radio". Unfortunately, the first radio report was at 1:33 which means Cortinas is placing Tippit in the store at or around 1:23. Impossible of course. No help for a timeline here. Last but not least, we have officer Roger Craig. He states "At that exact moment [of the discovery of Oswald's rifle in the Texas School Book Depository] an unknown Dallas police officer came running up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a Dallas policeman had been shot in the Oak Cliff area. I instinctively looked at my watch. The time was 1:06 p.m." Surely, a reliable time for the Tippit killing at last? No, just the contrary, Oswald's rifle was in fact discovered about 1:22 p.m. (Testimony of Seymour Weitzman, Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 7, p. 109) Craig gave an even later time for the Tippit shooting "1:40 p.m." in an interview with Penn Jones published in the Los Angeles Free Press in March 1968. He accepted Jones' correction that it was "a little before 1:15." So, not only do no two witnesses agree on the murder time, but the difference between the earliest and latest 'guess' is one hour!

As I claimed at the start "Anyone attempting to create a definitive timeline for Oswald or Tippit regarding the murder time, based on witness testimony and statements are pursuing an exercise in futility." And I stand by that claim. The only 'time' facts regarding the Tippit slaying that are trustworthy are that Oswald arrived at his boarding house at approximately 1pm, Tippit was killed between 1:5 and 1:15 and that Oswald, walking at a brisk pace, could have covered the distance in 11min 10 seconds.

Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 6, Testimony of Domingo Benavides.

Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 3, p. 305, Testimony of Mrs. Helen Markham.

Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 6, p. 454, Testimony of Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis.

Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 3, p. 322, Testimony of William W. Scoggins.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Denis Pointing

[Jim Feemster]

Of course, it is just my opinion that it might have happened this way;

Oz is brought home by conspriator driving station wagon [ someone is more than keeping an eye on him they are directing and handling him]. He goes into his borarding house, 2 horn tooting cops pull up in front and ease on away. Oz comes out of his room and goes to the corner bus stop where he is last seen. The horn tooting cops pick him up around the corner OR the dark complected station wagon driver picks him up after making the block . One or the other of these two villians takes Oz to a point just west of the TT and lets him out so he can buy a ticket and go in to find the next facilitator, the one Oz is seen chair hopping trying to find.

Killing a cop would be the best diversion of cop man power at DP but you have to have a cop to kill at a place from which his killer can be tracked to where the patsy actually is.

Maybe Tip wasn't supposed to kill Oz on Tenth St. but was to talk to some guy wearing a light colored jacket who would give him the lowdown on where to find Oz. { I can't believe this incident had anything to do with Tip's girlfriend. Too many things could have gone wrong to leave his showing up just at the right time to get plugged ] not to say Tip might have before hand picked the spot himself to meet the light colored jacketed man knowing the area as he did.

I can't believe Tip, knowing the pres. has just been shot is going to his little honey's house for some afternoon delight.

So while Oz is chair hopping and buying popcorn the " light colored jacket guy' shoots Tip and begans his trek to the TT, losing his jacket and leaving bread crumbs along the way to make sure the shoe salesman gets on his trail and leads the cops by proxy to where Oz is waiting. After slipping into the TT this villian makes his way to the rear door and when the cops arrive is jerked out and put into a squad car to be spirited away.

This couldv'e been plan "B". Later to put a good spin on this adventure it becomes know as the " ROSETTA STONE".

So now plan " C " takes affect..........RUBY

[Robert Walker]

Oz is brought home by conspriator driving station wagon [ someone is more than keeping an eye on him they are directing and handling him].

Why would they bring him to the boarding house (where he allegedly retrieves his revolver) instead of directly to the theater or to 10th and Patton or whatever, to the next contact?

If Oswald has active handlers, then is he [a] a completely innocent person with no connection to the events in dealey other than he coincidentally worked in the TSBD, actively part of a larger conspiracy and fired shots from the TSBD, [c] part of conspiracy but did not fire shots from the TSBD, [d] mixed up in intelligence activities and other subversion, but otherwise not involved in the assassination, [e] the lone gunman as promoted by the WC, or [f] some other variation (for example, is part of a team - or believes he is part of a team - that was providing "security" to the president in Dealey, and that has now gone horribly wrong?)

Obviously in [a] and [e] above, he wouldn't have handlers, though in (e) it is possible that he was being monitored.

Interesting.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Robert Walker

[J. Raymond Carroll]

According to one former OC cop, it was "common knowledge" at the station that JDT had girlfriend in Oak Cliff living "on the south side of Tenth."

Duke, that statement is in sore need of corroboration.

According to William Scoggins, who was an habitue of the domino club down Patton Street for lunch, remarked that he'd "seen [Tippit] all the time," and thus paid little attention to him as he passed on Tenth.

I am not sure that Scoggins positively identified Tippit as someone he knew by sight. He may have meant only that he used to see cop cars all the time, and paid no particular attention to this one.

Even if Scoggins was referring specifically to Tippit, Scoggins did not state that he'd "seen [Tippit] all the time" AT THAT PARTICULAR LOCATION.

One of the Davis sisters-in-law apparently saw him enough that she thought he lived two doors from her: "he was shot in front of the hedgerow between the house next door [to us] and the house that he lived in.[/

i]"

Posner (&ors) argue that Davis meant the house WE lived in, and there is no other testimony that Tippit "lived" next door to the Davis girls.

These are small points, to be sure. I do agree that the evidence shows that Lee Oswald was not in the vicinity of Tenth & Patton at the time of the shooting, and that the plot required the killing of a cop.

[Duke Lane]

Anyone attempting to create a definitive timeline for Oswald or Tippit regarding the murder time, based on witness testimony and statements are pursuing an exercise in futility. And any researcher who claims with such utter conviction that Tippit was killed "at about 1:05" and therefore "no matter which way he (Oswald) presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast" is, quite frankly, blowing hot air.

What is the evidence concerning Tippit's time of death?

For a 1:05 estimate:

• An unanswered radio call to the officer prior to 1:04
  
• A woman who took the bus to work every day at the same time who said, first, that it was 1:06 and later that she'd "be willing to bet" that it was 1;06 or 1:07 (and being adjudged "confused" because of these markedly different times);
  
• A man who got out of his car after the officer was on the ground and after a crowd had gathered who looked at his watch and said it was 1:10.
  

For a later estimate:

• A "citizen" radio call at 1:16
  
• Oswald couldn't get there any sooner
  

Then there's the testimony of Helen Markam, she witnessed the murder as she walked towards the scene. She first says, "I believe it was a little after 1" but when pressed for a more accurate time she says "I wouldn't be afraid to bet it was 6 or 7 minutes after 1". I don't know about anyone else but the words "I imagine" and "I wouldn't be afraid to bet" don't exactly fill me with confidence. The only truly accurate timeline Markham can give is that she left home at 1:00 to catch her bus at 1:15, she therefor witnessed the murder between these times.

The bus schedule (CD630h) shows that the bus was due to arrive at 1:12, not at 1:15, no matter what time she said it was. Maybe she rounded the time? Or perhaps always kept her clocks and watch running a little ahead so she wouldn't miss things (my wife does that, by 20 minutes)? I don't know, but I do know that it only takes about 1½ minutes to walk the short block from her front door to the corner she was standing at, so how many minutes after her 1:00 departure would you suggest it actually took her to get that far?

You're placing far too much faith on the totally unreliable Earline Roberts, whom even you admit was more interested in her T.V. The statement in her testimony "it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after, what time I wouldn't want to say." clearly shows the woman was far from sure what time Oswald arrived at the boarding house, she could easily have been as much as 5 minutes out. Which in itself completely shatters any attempt at a timeline.

Not actually, since the WC made an attempt at doing so, and based on that attempt - including knocking nine minutes off of William Whaley's time - the earliest they could get him into the house was at 1:00, and then only if he "power walked" up Beckley.

The only witness who states a time with any real conviction is Bowly. He arrives on the scene at 1:10 and Tippit has already been gunned down. Bowley's conviction for that time is based on the fact that he looked at his watch on arrival, very sensible, this surely is a reliable witness indeed, trouble is what we don't know is how reliable his watch was. You yourself Duke, present a far more eloquent argument for not trusting Bowley's time piece than I ever could, post #4 here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6322

As I've already noted, Markham gave her times consistently, her semantic presentation of them aside. As to my "eloquent argument," it did not speak to Bowley's watch or his winding habits. All I can say on that is that he's been adamant about his watch being correct, tho' it was apparently nothing special like a Rolex or something. The reason he'd looked at his watch at all was because he was late picking his wife up from work to go on a week's vacation.

Me, I'm not for throwing out all the available evidence because of corroboration or because the way someone said something doesn't "fill me with confidence." No matter what else anyone might say about Helen Markham and her reliability as a witness, when it comes down to the simple things she did, and especially the things she did every day like take a bus to work, I don't have any serious issues with her time estimate except that six minutes seems an awful long time for her to have taken to walk a short suburban block that I've walked in under 90 seconds. (Odd that, among all those reconstructions, her walk to that corner was not specifically noted, although it was noted that it only took to the tune of two minutes to walk all the way to the Jefferson Boulevard bus stop.)

It's also worth noting that Tippit was last heard from at 12:54. He had more than enough time from 8th & Lancaster to reach Top Ten, place an unconnected phone call, and get over to 10th & Patton by 1:04 or 1:05.

So, not only do no two witnesses agree on the murder time ....

But two do. You choose simply to disregard both of them.

As I claimed at the start "Anyone attempting to create a definitive timeline for Oswald or Tippit regarding the murder time, based on witness testimony and statements are pursuing an exercise in futility." And I stand by that claim. The only 'time' facts regarding the Tippit slaying that are trustworthy are that Oswald arrived at his boarding house at approximately 1pm, Tippit was killed between 1:05 and 1:15 and that Oswald, walking at a brisk pace, could have covered the distance in 11min 10 seconds.

Actually, as noted, the bus came at 1:12, so your timeline must be shortened.

For anyone to cover 9/10 of a mile in 11:10 (or 11.16 seconds) requires an average speed of 7.1 feet per second. By comparison, military "double time" is 7.5fps, not quite what one would call a "brisk walk." I'm not overly convinced by comparing Oswald's abilities to a fitness instructor's, any more than I am by comparing his marksmanship to a guy who shoots skeet from the hip. Possible? Sure. Likely? Not so sure.

[Duke Lane]

According to one former OC cop, it was "common knowledge" at the station that JDT had girlfriend in Oak Cliff living "on the south side of Tenth."

Duke, that statement is in sore need of corroboration.

Absolutely ... but I fear that such a thing might not ever be forthcoming from very many of his fellow officers, so we need to either take it at face value or discard it unequivocably.

According to William Scoggins, who was an habitue of the domino club down Patton Street for lunch, remarked that he'd "seen [Tippit] all the time," and thus paid little attention to him as he passed on Tenth.

I am not sure that Scoggins positively identified Tippit as someone he knew by sight. He may have meant only that he used to see cop cars all the time, and paid no particular attention to this one. Even if Scoggins was referring specifically to Tippit, Scoggins did not state that he'd "seen [Tippit] all the time" AT THAT PARTICULAR LOCATION.

"I just seen him all the time" probably could mean any cop. Could be, too, that Scoggins wasn't referring to himself when he made that remark, but about any cab driver. Or maybe he just didn't realize that he was being asked about a particular incident at a particular location on a particular day: "well, y'know, sometimes I'd see him downtown, and at other times I'd see him in the south part of town, and other times over by the river there, so when I saw him here, well, of course it just seemed perfectly natural."

That "the boys" in the gentlemen's club on Patton would be "joking" with him about the President getting shot likewise seems pretty normal: Texas is a friendly place, and chances are that people are going to strike up a conversation and try to pull the leg of just about any stranger who comes walking into their little neighborhood clubhouse. For all we know, it could have been his first time there, so "all the time" could mean just that once.

One of the Davis sisters-in-law apparently saw him enough that she thought he lived two doors from her: "he was shot in front of the hedgerow between the house next door [to us] and the house that he lived in."

Posner (&ors) argue that Davis meant the house WE lived in, and there is no other testimony that Tippit "lived" next door to the Davis girls.

I know. "He" and "we" sound an awful lot alike, and the court steno could simply have gotten it wrong, too. But funny thing: there was a hedgerow between the house next door to the Davis girls and the house beyond that one, but not one between the Davis's house and the one next door, so how could she have meant that? Maybe she meant a bush. All that required was backing the car up one house and dragging the body a short ways down the street, which might explain why Helen Markham put her work shoes on top of the patrol car, too.

These are small points, to be sure. I do agree that the evidence shows that Lee Oswald was not in the vicinity of Tenth & Patton at the time of the shooting, and that the plot required the killing of a cop.

I think I'm going to go back to the Hoffman thread where everyone believes every word he speaks. When Ed says he saw three cars of different colors and makes than Lee Bowers, it's quite clear that Bowers must be "mistaken;" when Ed says he saw "suit man" get into a green Rambler parked between Bowers' tower and the Pullman cars (which were between Hoffman and Bowers), it's a "significant detail."

There is no evidence, Ray. Earlene Roberts is unreliable, Markham's time estimate "doesn't inspire confidence," Bowley's watch could be wrong, Scoggins wasn't specific enough, Davis was misquoted and didn't mean what she said anyway, and more cops need to speak up about JD's girlfriend. Given the large number of other witnesses who were interviewed by the WC who lived in the immediate area, you'd think that at least one of them would've said something, eh? I mean, other than Jimmy Smith, who was AWOL and consequently must be entirely unreliable.

It's clear that Oswald did it at 1:15 because there's nothing to say that he didn't or couldn't have.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

According to one former OC cop, it was "common knowledge" at the station that JDT had girlfriend in Oak Cliff living "on the south side of Tenth."

Duke, that statement is in sore need of corroboration.

Absolutely ... but I fear that such a thing might not ever be forthcoming from very many of his fellow officers, so we need to either take it at face value or discard it unequivocably.

Davis was misquoted and didn't mean what she said anyway, and more cops need to speak up about JD's girlfrien

If the address of J.D.'s "girlfriend" was common knowledge, according to your source, then the same source should be able to supply the lady's NAME. Any luck with that?

[Duke Lane]

... and current address.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

All I can say on that is that he [bowley] 's been adamant about his watch being correct, tho' it was apparently nothing special like a Rolex or something. The reason he'd looked at his watch at all was because he was late picking his wife up from work to go on a week's vacation.

Duke: I can find nothing about Bowley (except his WC affidavit) in Maryferrell.org or the Sixth Floor website. Can you give us the exact source for Bowley's statement that his watch was accurate on 11/22/63?

the WC made an attempt at doing so, and based on that attempt - including knocking nine minutes off of William Whaley's time - the earliest they could get him into the house was at 1:00, and then only if he "power walked" up Beckley.

Re: Knocking nine minutes off Whaley's time... Where can we find further info on this? Have you posted about this before?

. and [Tippit's girlfriend's] current address.

More to follow on this?

[Chuck Robbins]

According to one former OC cop, it was "common knowledge" at the station that JDT had girlfriend in Oak Cliff living "on the south side of Tenth."

Duke, that statement is in sore need of corroboration.

Absolutely ... but I fear that such a thing might not ever be forthcoming from very many of his fellow officers, so we need to either take it at face value or discard it unequivocably.

According to William Scoggins, who was an habitue of the domino club down Patton Street for lunch, remarked that he'd "seen [Tippit] all the time," and thus paid little attention to him as he passed on Tenth.

I am not sure that Scoggins positively identified Tippit as someone he knew by sight. He may have meant only that he used to see cop cars all the time, and paid no particular attention to this one. Even if Scoggins was referring specifically to Tippit, Scoggins did not state that he'd "seen [Tippit] all the time" AT THAT PARTICULAR LOCATION.

"I just seen him all the time" probably could mean any cop. Could be, too, that Scoggins wasn't referring to himself when he made that remark, but about any cab driver. Or maybe he just didn't realize that he was being asked about a particular incident at a particular location on a particular day: "well, y'know, sometimes I'd see him downtown, and at other times I'd see him in the south part of town, and other times over by the river there, so when I saw him here, well, of course it just seemed perfectly natural."

That "the boys" in the gentlemen's club on Patton would be "joking" with him about the President getting shot likewise seems pretty normal: Texas is a friendly place, and chances are that people are going to strike up a conversation and try to pull the leg of just about any stranger who comes walking into their little neighborhood clubhouse. For all we know, it could have been his first time there, so "all the time" could mean just that once.

One of the Davis sisters-in-law apparently saw him enough that she thought he lived two doors from her: "he was shot in front of the hedgerow between the house next door [to us] and the house that he lived in."

Posner (&ors) argue that Davis meant the house WE lived in, and there is no other testimony that Tippit "lived" next door to the Davis girls.

I know. "He" and "we" sound an awful lot alike, and the court steno could simply have gotten it wrong, too. But funny thing: there was a hedgerow between the house next door to the Davis girls and the house beyond that one, but not one between the Davis's house and the one next door, so how could she have meant that? Maybe she meant a bush. All that required was backing the car up one house and dragging the body a short ways down the street, which might explain why Helen Markham put her work shoes on top of the patrol car, too.

These are small points, to be sure. I do agree that the evidence shows that Lee Oswald was not in the vicinity of Tenth & Patton at the time of the shooting, and that the plot required the killing of a cop.

I think I'm going to go back to the Hoffman thread where everyone believes every word he speaks. When Ed says he saw three cars of different colors and makes than Lee Bowers, it's quite clear that Bowers must be "mistaken;" when Ed says he saw "suit man" get into a green Rambler parked between Bowers' tower and the Pullman cars (which were between Hoffman and Bowers), it's a "significant detail."

There is no evidence, Ray. Earlene Roberts is unreliable, Markham's time estimate "doesn't inspire confidence," Bowley's watch could be wrong, Scoggins wasn't specific enough, Davis was misquoted and didn't mean what she said anyway, and more cops need to speak up about JD's girlfriend. Given the large number of other witnesses who were interviewed by the WC who lived in the immediate area, you'd think that at least one of them would've said something, eh? I mean, other than Jimmy Smith, who was AWOL and consequently must be entirely unreliable.

It's clear that Oswald did it at 1:15 because there's nothing to say that he didn't or couldn't have.

That statement is not accurate Duke.

Read the information contained in Judge Joe Brown's Autopsy Permit.

Consider that the time given would have been after Tippett had been picked up and transported to the hospital.

[Duke Lane]

All I can say on that is that he [bowley] 's been adamant about his watch being correct, tho' it was apparently nothing special like a Rolex or something. The reason he'd looked at his watch at all was because he was late picking his wife up from work to go on a week's vacation.

Duke: I can find nothing about Bowley (except his WC affidavit) in Maryferrell.org or the Sixth Floor website. Can you give us the exact source for Bowley's statement that his watch was accurate on 11/22/63?

He was also interviewed twice by the HSCA; sorry, don't have the RIFs handy. The source is Tom Bowley, from his lips to my ears. I've met with and interviewed him several times.

the WC made an attempt at doing so, and based on that attempt - including knocking nine minutes off of William Whaley's time - the earliest they could get him into the house was at 1:00, and then only if he "power walked" up Beckley.

Re: Knocking nine minutes off Whaley's time... Where can we find further info on this? Have you posted about this before?

Whaley's testimony. It's been discussed in threads regarding "LHO's escape from the TSBD," tho' I couldn't tell you what thread at the moment. It was one in which I at one point had suggested the possibility of DPD getting a transfer from McWatters' bus when they stopped him on his evening run to get him to view a lineup. Got real detailed in this as to elapsed times ....

. and [Tippit's girlfriend's] current address.

More to follow on this?

In due time. For now, I'd only mention as an aside that she was detained briefly at one point, years ago - long after 1963 - for having said something stupid in an airport, like "hijack!" (tho' I recall it was a bit more profound than that, like saying she'd had a gun in her luggage or something).

[Duke Lane]

It's clear that Oswald did it at 1:15 because there's nothing to say that he didn't or couldn't have.

That statement is not accurate Duke. Read the information contained in Judge Joe Brown's Autopsy Permit. Consider that the time given [1:15 p.m.] would have been after Tippett had been picked up and transported to the hospital.

You're right: the statement is not accurate. It was made with tongue firmly in cheek.

It was made in response to an earlier comment that it "isn't possible" to determine any kind of timeline regarding Tippit's death, which claim began by questioning Earlene Roberts' reliability ... as if anything that Oswald was doing at any time had anything at all to do with the murder. First we begin with the conclusion and then we examine the possibilities: Oswald shot Tippit, so could he have gotten there in time?

The answer, of course, is "yes" ... but only if we first make the underlying presumption that Tippit was shot at a time late enough for Oswald to have been able to cover the 9/10-mile distance. I think we're safe in saying that Oswald couldn't have run a four-minute mile; does anyone disagree? (I didn't think so.) So, if Tippit was killed in less time after LHO was seen elsewhere (in other cases, we'd call that an alibi!), then it means that ... whoa! Tippit couldn't have been killed that early!

Get it?

The proof is that he could have gotten there in under 12 minutes, which was before the shooting had been reported (and clearly the report wasn't made before Tippit was shot; we can all agree on that, too). That the shooting likewise could have occurred at any time prior to the 1:16 report is limited by the least amount of time it could take Oswald to get from one place to the next: if he could run a six-minute mile, then the shooting could have occurred as early as 1:10, but since there's no evidence that he could do that, it's not possible for Tippit to have been shot that early.

Simple, isn't it?

All you have to do is start with a firm conclusion - Oswald shot Tippit - and the evidence will support it. Where it might not, it's simple enough to realize that people's perceptions are not always correct - Earlene Roberts' time estimates were probably wrong, as Bowley's watch probably was, too - so at the very least, they don't undermine the conclusion. Since there's no way that unreliable evidence can prove anything beyond the all-too-obvious conclusion, then the conclusion must be correct.

Judge Brown's order can't be correct, at least not relative to DPD radio time, since the shooting wasn't reported over the radio until 1:16; at that time, the body was still in the street. It would imply that Judge Brown knew Tippit was dead before DPD did.

If it is correct, then it's not based upon the time he signed the order nor on the time Tippit arrived at the hospital dead, but possibly on the time the ambulance attendants estimated that they had picked him up, already dead. Today, EMTs can pronounce; then, it's not impossible that medically trained ambulance drivers could do so, but that, not being doctors, they'd have nevertheless rushed him to the hospital "just in case."

So, once again, we are left with this evidence:

For a 1:05 estimate:

• An unanswered radio call to the officer prior to 1:04
  
• A woman who took the bus to work every day at the same time who said, first, that it was 1:06 and later that she'd "be willing to bet" that it was 1;06 or 1:07 (and being adjudged "confused" because of these markedly different times);
  
• A man who got out of his car after the officer was on the ground and after a crowd had gathered who looked at his watch and said it was 1:10.
  

For a later estimate:

• A "citizen" radio call at 1:16
  
• Oswald couldn't get there any sooner
  

Arguing against the latter are these:

• prior to Bowley making the radio call, Donnie Benavides had been trying to do so unsuccessfully for a minute or longer;
  
• prior to taking the mike from Benavides, Bowley had gotten close enough to Tippit to give him a cursory examination and decide that he was "beyond help" (and had picked up his gun from the street);
  
• Bowley had walked half-a-block from his parked car after having driven it a half-block from Denver Street;
  
• A small crowd had already gathered when Bowley first saw Tippit lying in the street; and
  
• The small crowd had time to gather.
  

So unless one is willing to suggest that Oswald shot Tippit with an audience surrounding him, it's pretty clear that Tippit was dead at least two, three or four minutes before the radio call, and very possibly longer, giving him eight minutes to get there with a crowd present, or even less if one considers that crowds don't form instantaneously.

If there's a problem with that, then one simply realizes that Earlene Roberts was wrong, and it wasn't even as late as 1:00 when Oswald arrived at the rooming house, and/or that he didn't stay anywhere near as long as she'd estimated. And Whaley and the FBI were wrong, that it either took less time to get to where Whaley had dropped Oswald off or that he'd left his cab stand earlier than presumed. In the latter case, it also means that Cecil McWatters' estimates were wrong, as was the route supervisor's releasing him from the time-check stop too early. This in turn means either that Oswald got to where he'd gotten onto the bus earlier than presumed, and again that the FBI agents who timed the walk to that location did it entirely too slow, or that Oswald had left the TSBD well before 12:33 and therefore before he encountered Baker and Truly in the lunch room and possibly before he'd even shot the President. Ultimately, it proves that JFK was not shot at 12:30 as we've all suspected, and that both the clock over the TSBD on the Hertz sign was also wrong, and so was the DPD clock that we've all been using as a gauge of time.

So, back to my inaccurate statement: there is no evidence, and since there's no evidence, it must have occurred exactly as proposed. Please don't let facts get in the way; they have a way of working themselves out to our satisfaction.

[William Kelly]

Of course, if Oswald didn't shoot Tippit, then none of this is relevant.

Can the time of Tippit's death/murder be established apart from Oswald's supposed movements?

If Oswald was framed as the Sixth Floor sniper, then why couldn't he have been framed for the Tippit murder by one of the Oswald impersonators?

- BK

It's clear that Oswald did it at 1:15 because there's nothing to say that he didn't or couldn't have.

That statement is not accurate Duke. Read the information contained in Judge Joe Brown's Autopsy Permit. Consider that the time given [1:15 p.m.] would have been after Tippett had been picked up and transported to the hospital.

You're right: the statement is not accurate. It was made with tongue firmly in cheek.

It was made in response to an earlier comment that it "isn't possible" to determine any kind of timeline regarding Tippit's death, which claim began by questioning Earlene Roberts' reliability ... as if anything that Oswald was doing at any time had anything at all to do with the murder. First we begin with the conclusion and then we examine the possibilities: Oswald shot Tippit, so could he have gotten there in time?

The answer, of course, is "yes" ... but only if we first make the underlying presumption that Tippit was shot at a time late enough for Oswald to have been able to cover the 9/10-mile distance. I think we're safe in saying that Oswald couldn't have run a four-minute mile; does anyone disagree? (I didn't think so.) So, if Tippit was killed in less time after LHO was seen elsewhere (in other cases, we'd call that an alibi!), then it means that ... whoa! Tippit couldn't have been killed that early!

Get it?

The proof is that he could have gotten there in under 12 minutes, which was before the shooting had been reported (and clearly the report wasn't made before Tippit was shot; we can all agree on that, too). That the shooting likewise could have occurred at any time prior to the 1:16 report is limited by the least amount of time it could take Oswald to get from one place to the next: if he could run a six-minute mile, then the shooting could have occurred as early as 1:10, but since there's no evidence that he could do that, it's not possible for Tippit to have been shot that early.

Simple, isn't it?

All you have to do is start with a firm conclusion - Oswald shot Tippit - and the evidence will support it. Where it might not, it's simple enough to realize that people's perceptions are not always correct - Earlene Roberts' time estimates were probably wrong, as Bowley's watch probably was, too - so at the very least, they don't undermine the conclusion. Since there's no way that unreliable evidence can prove anything beyond the all-too-obvious conclusion, then the conclusion must be correct.

Judge Brown's order can't be correct, at least not relative to DPD radio time, since the shooting wasn't reported over the radio until 1:16; at that time, the body was still in the street. It would imply that Judge Brown knew Tippit was dead before DPD did.

If it is correct, then it's not based upon the time he signed the order nor on the time Tippit arrived at the hospital dead, but possibly on the time the ambulance attendants estimated that they had picked him up, already dead. Today, EMTs can pronounce; then, it's not impossible that medically trained ambulance drivers could do so, but that, not being doctors, they'd have nevertheless rushed him to the hospital "just in case."

So, once again, we are left with this evidence:

For a 1:05 estimate:

• An unanswered radio call to the officer prior to 1:04
  
• A woman who took the bus to work every day at the same time who said, first, that it was 1:06 and later that she'd "be willing to bet" that it was 1;06 or 1:07 (and being adjudged "confused" because of these markedly different times);
  
• A man who got out of his car after the officer was on the ground and after a crowd had gathered who looked at his watch and said it was 1:10.
  

For a later estimate:

• A "citizen" radio call at 1:16
  
• Oswald couldn't get there any sooner
  

Arguing against the latter are these:

• prior to Bowley making the radio call, Donnie Benavides had been trying to do so unsuccessfully for a minute or longer;
  
• prior to taking the mike from Benavides, Bowley had gotten close enough to Tippit to give him a cursory examination and decide that he was "beyond help" (and had picked up his gun from the street);
  
• Bowley had walked half-a-block from his parked car after having driven it a half-block from Denver Street;
  
• A small crowd had already gathered when Bowley first saw Tippit lying in the street; and
  
• The small crowd had time to gather.
  

So unless one is willing to suggest that Oswald shot Tippit with an audience surrounding him, it's pretty clear that Tippit was dead at least two, three or four minutes before the radio call, and very possibly longer, giving him eight minutes to get there with a crowd present, or even less if one considers that crowds don't form instantaneously.

If there's a problem with that, then one simply realizes that Earlene Roberts was wrong, and it wasn't even as late as 1:00 when Oswald arrived at the rooming house, and/or that he didn't stay anywhere near as long as she'd estimated. And Whaley and the FBI were wrong, that it either took less time to get to where Whaley had dropped Oswald off or that he'd left his cab stand earlier than presumed. In the latter case, it also means that Cecil McWatters' estimates were wrong, as was the route supervisor's releasing him from the time-check stop too early. This in turn means either that Oswald got to where he'd gotten onto the bus earlier than presumed, and again that the FBI agents who timed the walk to that location did it entirely too slow, or that Oswald had left the TSBD well before 12:33 and therefore before he encountered Baker and Truly in the lunch room and possibly before he'd even shot the President. Ultimately, it proves that JFK was not shot at 12:30 as we've all suspected, and that both the clock over the TSBD on the Hertz sign was also wrong, and so was the DPD clock that we've all been using as a gauge of time.

So, back to my inaccurate statement: there is no evidence, and since there's no evidence, it must have occurred exactly as proposed. Please don't let facts get in the way; they have a way of working themselves out to our satisfaction.

[Denis Pointing]

You're right: the statement is not accurate. It was made with tongue firmly in cheek.

It was made in response to an earlier comment that it "isn't possible" to determine any kind of timeline regarding Tippit's death, which claim began by questioning Earlene Roberts' reliability ... as if anything that Oswald was doing at any time had anything at all to do with the murder. First we begin with the conclusion and then we examine the possibilities: Oswald shot Tippit, so could he have gotten there in time?

The answer, of course, is "yes" ... but only if we first make the underlying presumption that Tippit was shot at a time late enough for Oswald to have been able to cover the 9/10-mile distance. I think we're safe in saying that Oswald couldn't have run a four-minute mile; does anyone disagree? (I didn't think so.) So, if Tippit was killed in less time after LHO was seen elsewhere (in other cases, we'd call that an alibi!), then it means that ... whoa! Tippit couldn't have been killed that early!

Get it?

The proof is that he could have gotten there in under 12 minutes, which was before the shooting had been reported (and clearly the report wasn't made before Tippit was shot; we can all agree on that, too). That the shooting likewise could have occurred at any time prior to the 1:16 report is limited by the least amount of time it could take Oswald to get from one place to the next: if he could run a six-minute mile, then the shooting could have occurred as early as 1:10, but since there's no evidence that he could do that, it's not possible for Tippit to have been shot that early.

Simple, isn't it?

All you have to do is start with a firm conclusion - Oswald shot Tippit - and the evidence will support it. Where it might not, it's simple enough to realize that people's perceptions are not always correct - Earlene Roberts' time estimates were probably wrong, as Bowley's watch probably was, too - so at the very least, they don't undermine the conclusion. Since there's no way that unreliable evidence can prove anything beyond the all-too-obvious conclusion, then the conclusion must be correct.

Judge Brown's order can't be correct, at least not relative to DPD radio time, since the shooting wasn't reported over the radio until 1:16; at that time, the body was still in the street. It would imply that Judge Brown knew Tippit was dead before DPD did.

If it is correct, then it's not based upon the time he signed the order nor on the time Tippit arrived at the hospital dead, but possibly on the time the ambulance attendants estimated that they had picked him up, already dead. Today, EMTs can pronounce; then, it's not impossible that medically trained ambulance drivers could do so, but that, not being doctors, they'd have nevertheless rushed him to the hospital "just in case."

So, once again, we are left with this evidence:

For a 1:05 estimate:

• An unanswered radio call to the officer prior to 1:04
  
• A woman who took the bus to work every day at the same time who said, first, that it was 1:06 and later that she'd "be willing to bet" that it was 1;06 or 1:07 (and being adjudged "confused" because of these markedly different times);
  
• A man who got out of his car after the officer was on the ground and after a crowd had gathered who looked at his watch and said it was 1:10.
  

For a later estimate:

• A "citizen" radio call at 1:16
  
• Oswald couldn't get there any sooner
  

Arguing against the latter are these:

• prior to Bowley making the radio call, Donnie Benavides had been trying to do so unsuccessfully for a minute or longer;
  
• prior to taking the mike from Benavides, Bowley had gotten close enough to Tippit to give him a cursory examination and decide that he was "beyond help" (and had picked up his gun from the street);
  
• Bowley had walked half-a-block from his parked car after having driven it a half-block from Denver Street;
  
• A small crowd had already gathered when Bowley first saw Tippit lying in the street; and
  
• The small crowd had time to gather.
  

So unless one is willing to suggest that Oswald shot Tippit with an audience surrounding him, it's pretty clear that Tippit was dead at least two, three or four minutes before the radio call, and very possibly longer, giving him eight minutes to get there with a crowd present, or even less if one considers that crowds don't form instantaneously.

If there's a problem with that, then one simply realizes that Earlene Roberts was wrong, and it wasn't even as late as 1:00 when Oswald arrived at the rooming house, and/or that he didn't stay anywhere near as long as she'd estimated. And Whaley and the FBI were wrong, that it either took less time to get to where Whaley had dropped Oswald off or that he'd left his cab stand earlier than presumed. In the latter case, it also means that Cecil McWatters' estimates were wrong, as was the route supervisor's releasing him from the time-check stop too early. This in turn means either that Oswald got to where he'd gotten onto the bus earlier than presumed, and again that the FBI agents who timed the walk to that location did it entirely too slow, or that Oswald had left the TSBD well before 12:33 and therefore before he encountered Baker and Truly in the lunch room and possibly before he'd even shot the President. Ultimately, it proves that JFK was not shot at 12:30 as we've all suspected, and that both the clock over the TSBD on the Hertz sign was also wrong, and so was the DPD clock that we've all been using as a gauge of time.

So, back to my inaccurate statement: there is no evidence, and since there's no evidence, it must have occurred exactly as proposed. Please don't let facts get in the way; they have a way of working themselves out to our satisfaction.

God Duke, you really are as long winded as hell, lets keep this nice and simple for the folks , yes?

Fact: Earlene Roberts could have been two min fast in her estimate.

Fact: Bowley's watch could have been one min fast.

Fact: Oswald could have got to the scene in under twelve min.

Fact: Tippit could have been shot at ten past one.

Fact: The above shows Oswald could have killed Tippit.

Fact: Your earlier statement that "That's why it doesn't matter which way Oswald got to 10th & Patton because, no matter which way he presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast" is plainly inaccurate.

Duke, you're a damn good researcher, arguably the best on this forum but you have a bad habit of presenting your opinion as fact, its not.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Denis Pointing