J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?

[William Kelly]

... Nothing out there on the poodle salon or wife "Betty J." You might ask Duke to check out the property transfer history of the address Capt. Marvin gave the WC. ...

Isn't "Betty" a dimunitive of "Elizabeth?"

Thanks to Stig for finding this and passing it on.

Dallas Morning News 1966 - June 17.

MARTIN

Capt. Frank m., 906 W. Five Mile Pkway. Survived by wife, Mrs. Betty Jo Martin; son, Glen Kirkland Martin; daughters, Debra Ashley, Denton; brother, Joe Martin, Las Vegas, Nev.; sister, Mrs. Virginia Cochran, Dallas. Services Saturday, 2:30 p.m., Sparkman's Garland Road Chapel, Rev. Arthur G. Swartz officiating. Interment Resland, Pallbearers: J.C. Nichols, M.M. Stevenson, C.C. Wallace, G. E. Butler, F.J. Couton, W. R. Westbrook, W. M. Wright, C.M. Martin.

SPARKLAND'S GARLAND ROAD

10501 Garland Road DA7-8291

So now, there is a son - Glen Kirkland Martin.

Can anybody get a make on him?

BK

[William Kelly]

... Nothing out there on the poodle salon or wife "Betty J." You might ask Duke to check out the property transfer history of the address Capt. Marvin gave the WC. ...

Isn't "Betty" a dimunitive of "Elizabeth?"

Thanks to Stig for finding this and passing it on.

Dallas Morning News 1966 - June 17.

MARTIN

Capt. Frank m., 906 W. Five Mile Pkway. Survived by wife, Mrs. Betty Jo Martin; son, Glen Kirkland Martin; daughters, Debra Ashley, Denton; brother, Joe Martin, Las Vegas, Nev.; sister, Mrs. Virginia Cochran, Dallas. Services Saturday, 2:30 p.m., Sparkman's Garland Road Chapel, Rev. Arthur G. Swartz officiating. Interment Resland, Pallbearers: J.C. Nichols, M.M. Stevenson, C.C. Wallace, G. E. Butler, F.J. Couton, W. R. Westbrook, W. M. Wright, C.M. Martin.

SPARKLAND'S GARLAND ROAD

10501 Garland Road DA7-8291

So now, there is a son - Glen Kirkland Martin.

Can anybody get a make on him?

BK

And it's not the Glen K. Martin who is a radio DJ and video producer. I already checked with him.

There is a Glen Martin at U of Texas Southwest Medical School though.

BK

[Tom Hume]

Bill,

Associated with a Betty J. Martin and a Debbie (Debra) Martin, there is a 60-year-old married couple, Glen K. Martin and Lorita (AKA Rita) K. Martin (maiden name - Lorita K. Wing) apparently now living in Allen, Texas. They were married August 3rd, 1973 when they were both 22 years old, so it seems this Glen K. Martin would have been twelve or thirteen in 1963.

http://usidentify.com/lorita-martin/allen+tx

http://usidentify.com/glen-k-martin/allen+tx

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Glen+K++Martin%22+lorita&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivnso&filter=0

[William Kelly]

Bill,

Associated with a Betty J. Martin and a Debbie (Debra) Martin, there is a 60-year-old married couple, Glen K. Martin and Lorita (AKA Rita) K. Martin (maiden name - Lorita K. Wing) apparently now living in Allen, Texas. They were married August 3rd, 1973 when they were both 22 years old, so it seems this Glen K. Martin would have been twelve or thirteen in 1963.

http://usidentify.co...martin/allen+tx

http://usidentify.co...martin/allen+tx

http://www.google.co...=ivnso&filter=0

Yes, Tom,

Exactly, he would have been twelve or thirteen, as was Mike Robinson, Glen's friend and schoolmate who went to the movies together on 11/22/63 and then met Glen's father - Capt. Frank Martin, at the DPD, where Robinson used the men's room near the locker room in the basement, and while in a stall, overheard some policemen discussing the assassination and the murder of Tippit.

Both Glen K. Martin and Mike Robsinson should be alive today.

Thanks for the lead,

Bill Kelly

[Travis Kelly]

The events in Oak Cliff leading up to Oswalds's arrest have always baffled me -- textual accounts of the locations and timeline are confusing, but become much clearer when you look at a map -- it's seems that Tippit was waiting for LHO to cross the viaduct, then immediately rushes to intercept him in the vicinity of the Texas Theater and Top 10 Record Shop (separated by less than 2 blocks), where he must have presumed, or been told, that Oswald would go. It's significant that Oswald was seen at the Top 10 shop twice that morning, at around 7:30.

The exact routes on this map are presumed. Tippit may have traveled between the nodes by different streeets than what is indicated.

I'll attempt a reconstruction of what happened in this critical hour, assuming the following are true:

1. Following Armstrong's nomenclature, the Oswald who rode in Whaley's cab and killed by Ruby is "Harvey." The look-alike Oswald who was ubiquitously impersonating Harvey in the preceding weeks is "Lee," and he was picked up by the Rambler wagon in front of the TSBD, as witnessed by Roger Craig, and taken to Oak Cliff contemporaneously with Lee.

2. DPD patrol car #107, witnessed by Earlene Roberts honking in front of the Beckley house while Harvey was inside, was a former DPD police car, sold in April, now manned by two DPD imposters, one of whom may have been Roscoe White, not a full-fledged cop at the time. (Roberts initially identified the car as possibly #106, or #207, then changed it to #107.) Supporting this is the account of Doris Holan, who lived at 409 E. Patton, and witnessed a DPD car in the driveway that Tippit's car blocked when he was killed. Except for officer Mentzel eating lunch at Luby's at this time, there were no other DPD patrols officially in Oak Cliff at this time. Also this, from the excellent JFK Chronology (http://www.jfkresearch.com/JFK%20Chronology%201.pdf).

April 10: Jack Ruby places a long distance call from the Carousel Club to Clarence Rector, an automobile transporter in Sulphur Springs, Texas. (A week from now, the Dallas Police will sell patrol car #107 [a 1962 Ford] to used car dealer Elvis Blount, who also lives in Sulphur Springs.

RECONSTRUCTION:

At 12:50, Whaley's cab with Harvey passes over the Houston viaduct, in front of the Gloco gas station where Tippit has been staked out for about 10 minutes. Two minutes later, the Rambler wagon with Lee passes Tippit -- this is his signal. He races south and west to the Texas Theater and/or the Top Ten Record shop, where he thinks he is supposed to rendezvous with Harvey. Lee has been dropped off near the 10th and Patton location by the Rambler. Meanwhile, Harvey has been instructed to go to his rooming house on Beckley and wait for a signal before leaving for the Texas Theater, where he believes he will meet his contact for the escape to Redbird airport.

At about 1:00, that signal arrives as car #107 stops and honks at the Beckley address. Harvey, fearing that that he may have been set up (he is not sure at this point that JFK has actually beeen shot), retrieves his pistoland proceeds to the Texas Theater, taking back alleys, where he is seen by no one. At the same time, about 1:00, Tippit makes his desperate phone call at the Top Ten Record store -- he cannot find "Oswald," and perhaps he too is shaken and confused by the news of JFK being shot. His handlers either don't answer, or the number of rings before the call is disconnected is a coded message -- proceed to the 10th & Patton safe house, or emergency rendezvous point.

After leaving the Top Ten store, Tippit encounters the James Anderson vehicle (maybe a similar Rambler wagon?), and stops it to search for his quarry. Then he proceeds eastward on 10th street, to the safe house, where he encounters Lee, who has been pacing back and forth, waiting for him (this would account for the conflicting reports of him traveling east or west on 10th St.). Bogus police car #107 is in the driveway of this house, manned by Roscoe White and a confederate. Tippit sees this car, and perhaps recognizes White, but suspects nothing, as this is the designated safe house. (witnesses observed Tippit in this area so often that one thought he lived there). He has a conversation with Lee -- "What the hell happened? You were supposed to be at the Texas Theater? Has Kennedy actually been shot? Get in the car!" Lee balks, starting to walk off, and Tippit gets out, either to force him into the car for the Redbird getaway -- or to arrest him if he's suspects an actual assassination. Lee murders him per the plan. Roscoe White and confederate are there to insure that Tippit is dead. White's confederate does that, then returns to #107 which backs out into the alley and vanishes.

Lee then proceeds to the Texas Theater, making a spectacle of himself at the Brewer shoe store and the lobby of the Theater (entering without buying a ticket), where he heads up to the balcony as Harvey sits on the ground floor. Harvey is arrested and taken out the front. Lee is "arrested" in the balcony, taken out back and released. He is then seen by the mechanic T.F. White in the car with George Mather's license plate -- a friend of Tippits and employee of the CIA-connected Collins Radio. Lee may be waiting here for an escort to the military plane that landed on dirt strip by the Trinity River and carried him to Roswell, per Vinson (in JFK:The Unspeakable).

_______________________________________________

The above scenario suggests that the Tippit murder was an essential, pre-planned element of the plot. A plausible pretext was needed to apprehend Harvey in Oak Cliff, and the shooting of a police officer filled the bill, while also enraging the cops who might then execute him in an act of vigilante justice (this is Garrison's view). Yet this seems a very risky strategy: if Harvey was supposed to die before ever seeing the inside of Dallas jail cell, there is no guarantee that officers not in on the plot would fulfill this mission -- and it was in fact a failure.

Alternatively, we have the story purportedly related by Sam Giancana in Double Cross: that Tippit was designated to kill Oswald (Harvey), got "cold feet," failed to do the job, and then his accomplices (Roscoe White) had to kill him. But this makes no sense -- why the need to kill Tippit? Because his cold feet might loosen his lips? It only makes sense if murdering Tippit, and leading the DPD to the Texas Theater and Harvey, was an emergency improvisation, designed on the spot in desperation, since Tippit had allowed his quarry to escape to the Texas Theater, and there would be no plausible reason for Tippit or any other officer to apprehend and/or kill him there.

One other bit of evidence for the two Oswalds in the Tex. Theater; in one account I've read, Julia Postal, the ticket clerk, was interviewed some years later, and asked if Oswald had bought a ticket. Reportedly, she broke down crying and couldn't answer, or struggled to answer. Her distress could be explained by the shock of what she had actually witnessed: Harvey buying a ticket, and then his near identical double, Lee, rushing in without buying a ticket some 30 minutes later.

Well, it's still a puzzle wrapped in an enigma. Any thoughts?

Edited November 13, 2011 by Travis Kelly

[Steven Skeen]

Well, it's still a puzzle wrapped in an enigma. Any thoughts?

I have not seen a more fitting final comment on a 20 plus page thread in this forum. There is more clarity of what transpired in Dealey then there is of events in Oak Cliff. And these events are critically important to understanding Dealey.

What do we know of Tippit in that 45 minutes or less after Dealey?

*He was watching the exit of the viaduct for several minutes directly after the shooting, and he then began behaving oddly.

Allow me to make a couple of fairly safe deductions, and a couple of leaps until Oak Cliff is factually unmuddied.

1. I shouldn't get too much opposition to the deduction that he was waiting for someone to leave Dealey through the viaduct.

2. After that, It's hard to argue against his witnessed frantic behavior being the result of a prearranged plan, somehow involving him, going awry.

3. What could his hurried phone call in the record store be for if not to have someone explain why the plan was not following its prescribed path, and as importantly, what should he do now.

4. As for his murder...that's a hard one. We know why Kennedy was terminated, but it's unlikely now 50 yrs later we will ever know why Tippit was.

I work in emergency medicine and no one ever is immediately incapacitated from center mass GSW's, even if shot through the aorta or left ventricle.

LHO had one of the most mortal, surgically unrepairable abdominal wounds and he survived to the OR. So, Tippit I believe, was surprised by the intent of his murderer, but had time to defensively draw and fall on his weapon, I would say as he was being fired upon. The execution style temple shot was for insurance after he was already felled lying prone.

I believe he was looking for LHO being ferried by car from Dealey in order to provide his further escape. I believe he and Lee were both intentionally manipulated to believe in Lee's escape plan, and it was never to actually take place. After this, I lose a significant amount of speculative confidence in why Tippit was eliminated. BTW, I see a fair amount of 'speculative confidence' around here

I may lean toward Giancana's purported testimony on Tippit's killing the most; Tippit got cold feet or somehow tried to deviate from directions or appeared unreliable.

FWIW, if he was to erase LHO, he would then also have had to be neutralized somehow as was done to the successor of his incompleted duty, Jack Ruby who was erased by way of incarceration, and intimidation, and untimely departure.

Second most believable hypothesis for his murder is he drove into a planned death trap for him. His murder definitely provided an effective diversion to post assassination cleanup of Dealey by plotters, and served to further incriminate LHO.

That will conclude my speculative diffidence. lol

[Steven Skeen]

Maybe an appropriate co-summation to my esteemed fellow conspiratorialist, Travis', worthy offering is that the post assassination doings of both LHO and JDT in Oak Cliff have been forever rendered indeterminable primarily by the succeeding witness accounts on record which are all, it seems, incredible, conflicting, inerrant, exaggerative, or wholly concocted for pathological self promotion. Why would one person flee the scene of Tippit's freshly murdered body while a second man lingers there? Why on earth would any of the sinister murderers of the officer allow another patrol car to haphazardly be witnessed in broad daylight right next to Tippit's body and patrol car before casually driving off? I'll spare my fellow members from going on and on here.

[Duke Lane]

... There is more clarity of what transpired in Dealey then there is of events in Oak Cliff. And these events are critically important to understanding Dealey.

What do we know of Tippit in that 45 minutes or less after Dealey?

*He was watching the exit of the viaduct for several minutes directly after the shooting, and he then began behaving oddly.

Allow me to make a couple of fairly safe deductions, and a couple of leaps until Oak Cliff is factually unmuddied.

1. I shouldn't get too much opposition to the deduction that he was waiting for someone to leave Dealey through the viaduct.

2. After that, It's hard to argue against his witnessed frantic behavior being the result of a prearranged plan, somehow involving him, going awry.

3. What could his hurried phone call in the record store be for if not to have someone explain why the plan was not following its prescribed path, and as importantly, what should he do now.

4. As for his murder...that's a hard one. We know why Kennedy was terminated, but it's unlikely now 50 yrs later we will ever know why Tippit was.

... I believe he was looking for LHO being ferried by car from Dealey in order to provide his further escape. I believe he and Lee were both intentionally manipulated to believe in Lee's escape plan, and it was never to actually take place. After this, I lose a significant amount of speculative confidence in why Tippit was eliminated. BTW, I see a fair amount of 'speculative confidence' around here

... Second most believable hypothesis for his murder is he drove into a planned death trap for him. His murder definitely provided an effective diversion to post assassination cleanup of Dealey by plotters, and served to further incriminate LHO.

That will conclude my speculative diffidence. lol

1. You'd get a LOT of opposition from me that Tippit was at the viaduct, or anywhere else other than where he said he was. The evidence supports his being at Kiest and Bonnieview; other evidence supports the viaduct cop being one of the cops who was NOT supposed to have been there, but was. DPD Channel 1 tape evidence will tell you who they were.

2. Moot.

3. To find out if his girlfriend was home and if she was pregnant. He apparently figured since he wasn't needed downtown, there was plenty of time to make this rendezvous. Plenty to support this notion.

4. Diversion from downtown shooting investigation. It worked.

I've posted extensively on all of this, with citations.

[Steven Skeen]

I'm going to say that you might be correct. Of course, you might not be.

edit: to reassure you, I did read the 23 pages yesterday including all of your work and citations.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Steven Skeen

[Richard Hocking]

... There is more clarity of what transpired in Dealey then there is of events in Oak Cliff. And these events are critically important to understanding Dealey.

What do we know of Tippit in that 45 minutes or less after Dealey?

*He was watching the exit of the viaduct for several minutes directly after the shooting, and he then began behaving oddly.

Allow me to make a couple of fairly safe deductions, and a couple of leaps until Oak Cliff is factually unmuddied.

1. I shouldn't get too much opposition to the deduction that he was waiting for someone to leave Dealey through the viaduct.

2. After that, It's hard to argue against his witnessed frantic behavior being the result of a prearranged plan, somehow involving him, going awry.

3. What could his hurried phone call in the record store be for if not to have someone explain why the plan was not following its prescribed path, and as importantly, what should he do now.

4. As for his murder...that's a hard one. We know why Kennedy was terminated, but it's unlikely now 50 yrs later we will ever know why Tippit was.

... I believe he was looking for LHO being ferried by car from Dealey in order to provide his further escape. I believe he and Lee were both intentionally manipulated to believe in Lee's escape plan, and it was never to actually take place. After this, I lose a significant amount of speculative confidence in why Tippit was eliminated. BTW, I see a fair amount of 'speculative confidence' around here

... Second most believable hypothesis for his murder is he drove into a planned death trap for him. His murder definitely provided an effective diversion to post assassination cleanup of Dealey by plotters, and served to further incriminate LHO.

That will conclude my speculative diffidence. lol

1. You'd get a LOT of opposition from me that Tippit was at the viaduct, or anywhere else other than where he said he was. The evidence supports his being at Kiest and Bonnieview; other evidence supports the viaduct cop being one of the cops who was NOT supposed to have been there, but was. DPD Channel 1 tape evidence will tell you who they were.

2. Moot.

3. To find out if his girlfriend was home and if she was pregnant. He apparently figured since he wasn't needed downtown, there was plenty of time to make this rendezvous. Plenty to support this notion.

4. Diversion from downtown shooting investigation. It worked.

I've posted extensively on all of this, with citations.

Duke,

Good to see you posting again.

[Duke Lane]

I'm going to say that you might be correct. Of course, you might not be.

edit: to reassure you, I did read the 23 pages yesterday including all of your work and citations.

Thanks for the update, Steven. I like the condensed version much better.

There are quite a few Tippit threads, and I couldn't tell you whether this is one of the more extensive ones or not. I probably posted in most if not all of them.

I don't believe I've ever said or even left the impression that I have any faith in the "harried stop" story. The Top Ten phone call is credible largely because it can fit in the timeline of Tippit's movements; the stop cannot. Work it out; use Google Maps to work out the distances and (to a lesser extent) times. They don't work; can't work.

But it's got a nice "wow" factor, don't you think?

Other than that "there's no reason not to believe" the story, why should we? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. Can you make the case for it?

Of course, we'll never know if I'm absolutely correct about any or all of this until and unless someone involved steps forward and admits that the story as we know it isn't quite right. In the meanwhile, one measure of evaluating the verity of any story is how well it fits into a cohesive whole.

Or whether it fits into another one.

But those are a little harder to find.

[Steven Skeen]

Thanks for the update, Steven. I like the condensed version much better.

I absolutely concur, Duke. Less is almost always better. I am a small fish in the this pond of the implications of 11/23/63. The original digression had something to do with ponds originating from and terminating in massive waters.

[Steven Skeen]

Duke, any idea why the three major networks or other primary news did not interview the only living man linked to the assassination, Ruby, from his Dallas jail cell between his conviction and death, rather all we have is a brief few moments of poor quality tape of cryptic replies?

[Duke Lane]

Steve, I can only GUESS that reason is that the man CONVICTED of murder with malice was still APPEALING his case at the time of his death, and hoped to overturn the verdict. I can't imagine any attorney allowing his client to submit to an open interview about his possible involvement in ANOTHER murder; can you?

[Mike Rago]

Where is the proof that Ruby actually died?

We have autopsy photos of Oswald. We have autopsy photos of JFK and we have autopsy photos of Tippit to I think.

Where is the proof that Jack Ruby died?

When someone dies right after their conviction for murder is overturned and before a new trial begins I call that a suspicious death.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Mike Rago