J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?

[Mike Rago]

Because Tippit was not part of the motorcade would he have been monitoring Dallas Police Department Channel 1?

He was on Channel 1.

From "Car 10 Where Are You"

I have not been able to locate any radio transcripts of the Dallas Police Department activities before 10:00 A.M. on this day. There are several different versions of the Channel 1 Dallas Police Department Radio Transcripts.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

Channel 1 was jammed during most of the motorcade. Channel 1 could have been used to signal anyone monitoring the channel.

This sequence was recorded after the shots were fired. About 1.5 minutes after. We know this from the Channel 2 cross talk recorded on Channel 1. This sequence is about 30 seconds after the phrase "hold everything secure" on Channel 1. It is estimated that this phrase was stated by Chief Curry about 1 minute after the assassination. Combining the two we get about 1.5 minutes after the assassination.

Some people say that the "v for victory" we hear is just an accidental event caused by officers trying to key into a jammed channel. All I can say is this, it is the only instance of such a recording on the entire tape.

(This link has a tendency to stop working)

http://www.toofiles....or_victory.html

Note To Admins: How can I use the "My Media" option? Will the Education Forum host audio files?

v_for_victory.wav

Edited July 16, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Mike Rago]

Would a murderer killer lie?(Technically Jack Ruby is not guilty of murder)

Edited October 5, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Chris Newton]

Before coming to Dallas, Avila had been a CBS correspondent in Mexico and was the Dallas Spanish Language Voice of America correspendent.

VOA is/was a subsidiary of USIA.

The USIA is tasked with overt white propaganda.

In area's of military operations, policy and planning of psychological operations are under DOD oversight and approval. I submit that operations against Cuba were subject to this oversight and may still be.

From personal knowledge, directors of regional stations and higher level employees in VOA during the timeframe in question ('50s & 60's) were mostly current (or ex) COI, OWI, OSS and CIA.

It would not be a "stretch" to assume Avila was "connected".

[Chuck Robbins]

The two men acted as if they knew each other when they met. What is there to say they did not know each other? What if Tippit saw somebody walking down the street that he knew for a fact should not have been walking anywhere at that moment? I still have a funny feeling about the officer in #56, (Ptm. W.P. Parker) who reported himself as

"56 clear for 5."

when dispatch asked

"56, your location."

he said he was on

"East Jefferson."

at 12:43 p.m.

After a pause of nearly 2 minutes, the next broadcast is

"Attention Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45."

Within a minute, this is the very next broadcast

"87, 78, move into central Oak Cliff area."

Sometime between 12:55 and 1:03 dispatch asks

"78, location?"

To which there is no response, and no further inquiry is made. Perhaps because he was out of the car and on the ground at that time?

Later, the call came in to report an officer being shot. Immediately after being told the shooting of Tippit had occured

"Between Marsalis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What -- what's . . . 404 Tenth Street.",

the dispatcher, for reasons unknown, broadcast that he was shot

"Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson."

The officer in #56 had not given a specific address on E;.Jefferson. Did the dispatcher somehow know exactly where #56 was located? If so, what would have been his reason to believe that a shooting would have involved that officer instead of Tippit? Had a police officer at that address radioed in that he was involved in a shooting?

There is a description of this suspect given by Patrolman Walker

"White male, thirty, height five foot eight, very slender build, black hair, a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks." I am curious as to whether or not this description (or the one above stating 5'10") would have fit Mr. Parker in 1963.

Or if this

"That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt, and (. . . ?). Last seen running on the north side of the street from Patton, on Jefferson, on East Jefferson. And he was apparently armed with a 32 dark-finish automatic pistol which he had in his right hand." fits his description.

Then, as if to reinforce the dispatcher's knowledge of where the officer was, this comes in

"One of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he's in this block, the 400 block of East Jefferson behind this service station. Would you give me some more squads over here?"

Then this from dispatch

"19, where did the officer go?"

19 replies

"I saw some squads going towards Methodist real fast. Imagine that's where he is."

19 also reported

"I've got two witnesses; one that talked with the officer and one that observed the man."

No one could have talked to Tippit, he was shot in the head and expired immediately, correct?

Whether you can put this all together to come up with the idea, like I did, that they are talking about an Officer who was seen, and talked to, by witnesses at the scene who was not Tippit, that is up to you.

There is just something wrong with the whole dialogue. If anyone knows what Officer Parker looked like in 1963 perhaps you could post it here?

[Chuck Robbins]

God Duke, you really are as long winded as hell, lets keep this nice and simple for the folks , yes?

God, Dennis, I didn't realize I was talking to idiots who can't quite handle compound sentences. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Or are you asking me to put it in terms that you can understand? I'd suggest that if you can understand it, most other people can too. I don't see any need to "dumb it down" for "the folks," but I'm sure they appreciate your concern for my overtaxing their intellect.

Fact: Earlene Roberts could have been two min fast in her estimate.

Fact: Bowley's watch could have been one min fast.

Fact: Oswald could have got to the scene in under twelve min.

Fact: Tippit could have been shot at ten past one.

Fact: The above shows Oswald could have killed Tippit.

Fact: Your earlier statement that "That's why it doesn't matter which way Oswald got to 10th & Patton because, no matter which way he presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast" is plainly inaccurate.

Duke, you're a damn good researcher, arguably the best on this forum but you have a bad habit of presenting your opinion as fact, its not.

I present facts and tell you what I think of them, or what I think they mean. You don't have to agree, but your disagreement doesn't establish a different fact.

Tell you what: start at 1:16 and work your way backward to 12:30 or earlier. Use the WC times, as well as conflicting statements under oath (e.g., Whaley's statement of how long it took him to drive the cab route in his own vehicle, versus how long it took the AAG to drive Whaley's cab over the same route with Whaley as a passenger), as well as reasonable estimates for other things to have occurred, such as the gathering of the crowd before Bowley's arrival.

If 1:16 is the late end of the timeline, the early end is when McWatters was let go from the check point at St Paul Street. You do the work this time and I'll tell you where I think it's wrong.

Feel free to explain it in detail for "the folks." I think they'll "get it" even if you don't.

No that's fine for me Duke, I understand it all perfectly well thank you. You've made it abundantly clear that neither you nor anyone else can claim a definitive time for the Tippit slaying, the witness testimony is just too contradictory, and yet you still keep trying to state as fact that "Oswald couldn't have done it" or "Oswald couldn't have got there in time", like I said Duke, you are blowing hot air. And you damn well know it. P.S. Do try not to keep throwing these little hissy fits and tantrums every time someone 'dares' to disagree with you please. I realize you've had some articles published but frankly your head is so far up your own backside I truly do worry about you suffocating.

Have you ever seen the copy of Tippit's death certificate? It has TOD as 1:15. That should help clear up any misunderstandings. There is no possible way that Tippit was shot as late as stated in the WC report. No where close.

[Paul Brancato]

I'd like to bring back this thread. Joseph McBride, in his book 'Into the Nightmare', presents an idea that appeared no where on this thread, that perhaps JD Tippit was Badgeman, or at least that he was a shooter at DP. His wife presented him with an alibi of course, saying that he came home for lunch that day, something unusual for him. McBride interviewed Tippit's father, who says that JD was an expert shooter. Whatever the truth of this, McBride and others are right when they say the Tippit shooting is a rosetta stone to the assassination of JfK. I find it interesting that several witnesses who buttressed the government conclusion that LHO killed Tippit were connected with Jack Ruby. I enjoyed the book, even though personal journey took up many pages.

[David Josephs]

I'd like to bring back this thread. Joseph McBride, in his book 'Into the Nightmare', presents an idea that appeared no where on this thread, that perhaps JD Tippit was Badgeman, or at least that he was a shooter at DP. His wife presented him with an alibi of course, saying that he came home for lunch that day, something unusual for him. McBride interviewed Tippit's father, who says that JD was an expert shooter. Whatever the truth of this, McBride and others are right when they say the Tippit shooting is a rosetta stone to the assassination of JfK. I find it interesting that several witnesses who buttressed the government conclusion that LHO killed Tippit were connected with Jack Ruby. I enjoyed the book, even though personal journey took up many pages.

Hey there Paul...

Morningstar did an amazing job and while I disagree with his JDT/JFK swap... the info he provides regarding Tippit's whereabouts makes it pretty difficult for him to have been in DP as Badgeman (who does not actually exist other than as an image so ingrained in our minds it has become difficult NOT to see "him"... but a different coloring of the Moorman image and we can see only sky, leaves and shadows.... except for that shooter to the west....

Add the "facts" about where Tippit was and I believe another person can be taken off the list as being the "man" in the badgeman illusion.

If you take a close look at any "badgeman group" enlargement... one is struck by how light - and from what source - but how light reflects off the "badge" and "patch" in the midst of shadow...

or any of the other white spots which appear in deep shadow yet on the front of these three men...

Just sayin... before we talk about Tippit as badgeman... don't we need to prove there was a badgeman. Kinda like talking about Oswald's bringing a rifle to work when we cant get the rifle into Oswald's hands.

DJ

At 12:17P.M. Tippit radios the dispatcher and says "be out of the car for a minute, 4100 block of Bonnie View." This information comes from the Bowles Channel 1 transcript. Close examination of this document shows that the Police Dispatcher did not transmit an order for Tippit to go to this location on Bonnie View. Perhaps as Tippit was patrolling his district after lunch, he noticed something suspicious or was stopped by a citizen and asked to investigate whatever was going on at the 4100 block of Bonnie View Rd.

4100 Bonnie View is 7.5 miles from Tippit's home with a normal travel time of 24 minutes, Tippit Travel Time could have been 18-20 minutes this would have given Tippit plenty of time from 11:50A.M. when he cleared from lunch to travel to the location in his patrol district where he got out of the car at 12:17P.M.

In Judy Bonner's book "Investigation of a Homicide"on page 71 she states "The Bonnie View call turned out to be a dry run, an elderly woman who had thought she had seen a man trying to burglarize a house next door. Tippit politely took down her story, made a fruitless search of the neighborhood, returned to his car to write out a report, then radioed in for another assignment." I do not know how Judy Bonner obtained this information? Tippit was killed one hour later and a search for the report mentioned has proved unsuccessful. Whatever happened at 4100 Bonnie View did not last long since Tippit called back the Dispatcher 3 minutes later at 12:20P.M. and reported "78 clear."

Even though Tippit was not ordered to the 4100 block of Bonnie View RD. by the Police Dispatcher, there is no hard evidence to disprove that this event was genuine. There is also no hard evidence to prove this event was staged in any way, since the location he stopped at was known to the dispatcher and potential witnesses could have been located if the situation called for it. The best information available places Tippit at the 4100 block of Bonnie View Rd. between 12:17 and 12:20P.M. on 11/22/63.

Shortly after publishing this article Irish researcher Chris Scally sent me a letter he received from the late Larry Harris in 1984 that contained information about the 4100 Bonnie View call. Larry wrote “In 1978 I interviewed the manager of a grocery market at 4121 Bonnie View; He told me that during the noon hour on 11/22/63, he caught a woman shoplifter and phoned the police; it was Tippit who responded. The store manager knew Tippit because it was almost invariably Tippit who responded to calls for shoplifters. The manager told me that Tippit placed the woman in the squad car and left. So indeed Tippit was on an investigation at 12:17 P.M. nevertheless, it is disturbing and perhaps significant that this incident is not reflected more substantially in the tapes or transcripts.”

Larry Harris’s investigator Ken M. Holmes Jr confirms this story. In 1963 Hodges Super Market occupied 4121 Bonnie View Road (1963 Dallas City Directory). On my last trip to Dallas in November of 1997 the small shopping plaza that contained this store was vacant with for sale signs on it.

Who this shoplifter was, what happened to her, how Tippit was really alerted to this location and what impact this could have had on the events that follow are still not known. This story has confirmation from the grocer who was a known and interviewed eyewitness, where as the story from ‘Investigation of a Homicide’ that was previously reported in the original article has never been confirmed.

[David Andrews]

It's an interesting thought, Tippit as a shooter. I haven't read McBride's book, so I'll keep an open mind. However, past research into Tippit's movements following the shooting, as published in The Third Decade or The Fourth Decade, seem to show a Tippit with his time used up in Oak Cliff, including purportedly stalking McWatters' bus, and making that frantic phone call at the record store.

Did Tippit have time, before these appointed rounds, to be a shooter? Perhaps Mr. McBride covers this in the book. Maybe Tippit was in his purported hurry precisely because he was ennerved at having to hot-foot it from Dealey to Oak Cliff. Maybe his encounter with "Oswald" went bad for that reason.

Also - I understand the "hide in plain sight" principle, but would it be desirable to have an actual Dallas policeman, who might be recognized by civilians or uninvolved officers, shoot from near-open on the Knoll? Wouldn't a disposable, disavowable fake Dallas cop be a better choice?

Note - I was writing this while David Josephs was posting above, and so didn't see his reports of alleged Tippit sightings during the assassination.

Edited January 31, 2014 by David Andrews

[Paul Brancato]

Agree David Josephs that Badgeman evidence is weak, and agree David Andrews that non cops in uniform makes more sense.

The Ted Callaway story is mentioned briefly by a poster but dismissed as old news. Why? Someone picks up Tippit's gun and replaces it, presumably, some time later. That is completely weird.

[Chris Scally]

In post #354 above, David Josephs posted a passage starting with "At 12:17 PM" and continuing to the end of the post.

In fairness, it should be noted that this entire passage is a verbatim quote from Bill Drenas' 1998 article, "Car #10 Where Are You?" (available on-line). I would also add that the account given to me by Larry Harris in 1984 regarding the 4100 Bonnieview incident is accurately reported by Bill Drenas in his article.

[David Josephs]

Sorry for forgetting the link Chris... I rarely make that mistake.

I thought it was the work of Morningstar... my bad here's the link http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm

Thanks for clearing that up

DJ

[Paul Brancato]

Good reading David.

If 5 witnesses are to be believed, Tippit was at the Gloco gas station at 12:45 pm on Nov. 22, and therefore lied about his whereabouts to police dispatch about 15 minutes after the assassination.

He left home after lunch at 11:50 AM. At 12:17 pm he radios in a location 4100 Bonnie View, where he apparently showed up despite not being dispatched there, and ends up taking a shoplifter into custody. In 1978 Tippit's presence there is verified by the then store owner, who claims he called the police to report the shoplifter. So that is his alibi for his location during the assassination. Pretty weak, especially if he lied about his location shortly afterwards. The shoplifter was never identified, and in the lengthy article linked in David's last post the store owner is not identified either.

Reports of Tippit's behavior after the event suggest he was in a panic, and up to something other than hunting for the killer or killers of the president. His subsequent violent death lends credence to the idea that he was afraid for his own life. McBride's groundbreaking interview with Tippit's father reveal that Tippit was a great shot.

To add further fuel to the theory that Tippit was up to his eyeballs in trouble, his gun is taken from under his dead body and presumably, but not provably, the very same gun is returned later.

[David Andrews]

Though it's thrilling theater, and was exciting in Oliver Stone's JFK, remember that the idea that a uniformed cop fired from the knoll fence rests on two sources: Gordon Arnold's much later testimony, and Jack White's "badgeman" photo discovery. Unless I've forgotten a second witness, no one else but Arnold openly reported a uniformed officer behind the fence - not S. M. Holland, nor Lee Bowers.

What is the current photo evidence that Gordon Arnold was in front of the fence in Army uniform? Can he be seen clearly in any films or photos, or has the issue been left where it was at the time of the documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy?

[Duke Lane]

Good reading David.

If 5 witnesses are to be believed, Tippit was at the Gloco gas station at 12:45 pm on Nov. 22, and therefore lied about his whereabouts to police dispatch about 15 minutes after the assassination.

He left home after lunch at 11:50 AM. At 12:17 pm he radios in a location 4100 Bonnie View, where he apparently showed up despite not being dispatched there, and ends up taking a shoplifter into custody. In 1978 Tippit's presence there is verified by the then store owner, who claims he called the police to report the shoplifter. So that is his alibi for his location during the assassination. Pretty weak, especially if he lied about his location shortly afterwards. The shoplifter was never identified, and in the lengthy article linked in David's last post the store owner is not identified either.

Reports of Tippit's behavior after the event suggest he was in a panic, and up to something other than hunting for the killer or killers of the president. His subsequent violent death lends credence to the idea that he was afraid for his own life. McBride's groundbreaking interview with Tippit's father reveal that Tippit was a great shot.

To add further fuel to the theory that Tippit was up to his eyeballs in trouble, his gun is taken from under his dead body and presumably, but not provably, the very same gun is returned later.

Little-known fact: another patrol (#56) radioed in his location in this same area ("East Jefferson") at around 12:45. This car was more than 10 miles outside of his assigned area in SE Dallas near Garland. There is no other "Jefferson" in Dallas outside of Oak Cliff, and none in the assigned district.

Another: the time that it takes today to travel from 4100 Bonnie View to 8th & Lancaster by the most direct and logical route is to-the-minute the same span of time between Tippit's two broadcasts.

The notion that Tippit at Gloco and reported being at 4100 Bonnie View, and then traveled the shorter distance from Gloco to 8th & Lancaster and timed it to coincide with the time it takes to get there from Bonnie View, fairly stretches the imagination.

Yet another: a third patrol reported being at "105 Corinth," also outside his assigned district in NW Dallas near Farmers Branch, at almost exactly the time that Tippit would have crossed that block of Corinth - again, the only street with that name in Dallas -on his way from 4100 Bonnie View to 8th & Lancaster via the most direct and logical route.

Another still: the rookie (three days on the job) police dispatcher who gave Tippit the order to move into Oak Cliff, Murray Jackson, claimed that he gave the order because "I realized that we were draining the Oak Cliff area of available police officers. If there was an emergency, such as an armed robbery or a major accident to come up, we wouldn’t have had anybody there that would be in close proximity to answer the call."

Fact: immediately after ordering Tippit into Oak Cliff because of this concern, the only other officer remaining in Oak Cliff, W.E. Smith in district 77, was dispatched out of it and into downtown. Another fact: R.C. Nelson, who was ordered into Oak Cliff at the same time as Tippit, described his route into downtown as he was taking it; he was not told to return to the area dispatch was "draining."

Immediately before dispatch realized Oak Cliff was being drained is when unit #56 radioed being "out" at his "East Jefferson" location, yet he was not called into service there. Could it have been he who was at the Gloco? It was not far from the terminus of East Jefferson.

(And did Jackson, who "realized" that Oak Cliff was being "drained" of police, not also realize that he had an extra officer on East Jefferson, and - only 90 seconds later - another one reporting in at 105 Corinth while Tippit was still en route to 8th & Lancaster ... and at about that time, crossing Corinth in the 100 block?)

More: Oak Cliff was the ONLY area of town from which patrols were being assigned into downtown in the aftermath of the shooting. No attempt was made to contact the officer who was regularly assigned to the district where Tippit was shot: he had checked out to lunch immediately after the shooting downtown, "got word" of it while eating lunch after Tippit was missing; when he called in, he was immediately dispatched to handle a traffic accident.

Does all of this really sound as if Tippit was a part of a conspiracy, or more likely a victim of one?

[Paul Brancato]

I find the Gloco witnesses believable, and am more inclined to believe them than to believe Tippit's locations as reported by him to dispatch. If he lied about his whereabouts in the immediate aftermath of the assassination its suspicious behavior indeed. He was certainly a victim of a conspiracy, and perhaps part of one too.

David - uniformed cops shooting at the motorcade does make good theater. I'll refresh my memory on Gordon Arnold's testimony soon. But whether he is believable or not, there are scant eyewitness descriptions that day of any of the shooters. They were all well hidden. The evidence is overwhelming, at least to me, that there was a crossfire, and that shots came from the direction that Arnold and so many others said they did. I am not sold on the Badgeman story, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a uniformed shooter in that area. Should we dismiss the possibility that Tippit or some other as yet unnamed DP or someone dressed like one shot at JFK just because we don't find the Badgeman photo evidence believable or because Roscoe White's story doesn't hold up to scrutiny, or because we have little eyewitness testimony of such a shooter?