Buell Wesley Frazier, curtain rods and the lack of blaming Frazier- very interesting

Very interesting excerpt (page 187) of The Lone Star Speaks: Untold Texas Stories About the JFK Assassination by Sara Peterson and K.W. Zachry (2020)

Oswald denied that he brought curtain rods to work that day. He said he only brought his lunch to work, and that he brought it in a paper bag. He said sometimes he brought his lunch in larger paper bags and sometimes in smaller ones. When told that Frazier had said he'd brought curtain rods to work that day, Oswald replied that Frazier was mistaken. Marina said she believed that the bag Oswald took to work that day had his lunch in it.

For many years, I used to carry my lunch to work in the large brown grocery bags that I would get from grocery stores. 

What do people think of this guy? He is definitely someone who speaks a lot, and I think he may have changed his story a couple of times. If I remember correctly he was brought in to the police station as well that day. Like Ruth Paine, not sure this guy is on the level but someone of you may have talked to him or know him.

25 minutes ago, Derek Thibeault said:

What do people think of this guy? He is definitely someone who speaks a lot, and I think he may have changed his story a couple of times. If I remember correctly he was brought in to the police station as well that day. Like Ruth Paine, not sure this guy is on the level but someone of you may have talked to him or know him.

There’s bound to be two camps for him, one who believes him and one who regard him as a teller of tall tales…..

Me, I believe him.

1 hour ago, Sean Coleman said:

There’s bound to be two camps for him, one who believes him and one who regard him as a teller of tall tales…..

Me, I believe him.

Good XXXXX are almost always quick, sharp and clever. And pathologically bent.

IMO Frazier was not sophisticated enough or pathological enough to be a good and consistent xxxx.

Frazier's oft told tale of Captain Will Fritz ordering him to sign a document that Frazier worried might implicate him, and Fritz's red faced rage when he refused including raising his hand or fist to strike Frazier and Frazier's warning statement back to Fritz...that if Fritz tried to hit him " we's gonna have one hell of a fight!" endeared me to Frazier.

That took guts!

And Fritz backed down!

Many have labeled Frazier as a slow witted country bumpkin.

Regardless, I think he had more integrity than many so-called highfalutin' educated folk.

20 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Very interesting excerpt (page 187) of The Lone Star Speaks: Untold Texas Stories About the JFK Assassination by Sara Peterson and K.W. Zachry (2020)

There's another reason why Oswald may have told Frazier that he was going to Irving for curtain rods on Thursday: because he didn't want to tell him that he had had a fight with his wife over his using an alias to rent a room. It was none of Frazier's business and if Frazier had asked him why he was going to Irving on a Thursday, he may have told him a tale to shut him up. To give that tale a semblance of truth, he took a package of curtain rods out of Mrs. Paine's garage and brought it to work that morning. He could have very well left that package outside on the dock before he went into the building.

Strangely, they found a package of curtain rods the same type and size of package as described by Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle in ( they claim ) the Paine garage. Even more odd is that they dusted the package for Oswald's prints (?) claiming that they were not on the package. But then they did something even more bizarre: they dusted the rods that were INSIDE the package for Oswald's prints. Again, they reported that Oswald's prints were not on the rods.

Why would they dust a package that Oswald never touched and having established that he didn't, why dust the rods inside ? What evidential value would there be in dusting the rods if the paper they were wrapped in was lacking Oswald's prints ? It doesn't make sense.

Unless, of course, the paper wrapping DID have Oswald's prints on them and they went to the next step to find out if his prints were on the rods as well. 

14 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Why would they dust a package that Oswald never touched and having established that he didn't, why dust the rods inside? What evidential value would there be in dusting the rods if the paper they were wrapped in was lacking Oswald's prints? It doesn't make sense.

Unless, of course, the paper wrapping DID have Oswald's prints on them and they went to the next step to find out if his prints were on the rods as well. 

You're wrong when you say that the curtain rods found in Ruth Paine's garage (Ruth Paine Exhibits 275 and 276) were "wrapped" in "paper". Ruth made it quite clear in her WC testimony that those 2 curtain rods were NOT "wrapped" in any kind of paper or wrapping at all. (See the testimony below.)

You're probably confusing the curtain rods with the other two packages that Ruth did unwrap in her garage during her WC session. Those two packages were wrapped in paper, with one of those paper packages containing venetian blinds and the other containing window shades (or "pull blinds"). But the two curtain rods in Ruth's garage were not wrapped at all. And, therefore, no paper wrapping connected with those rods could have possibly been checked for Oswald's (or anyone else's) fingerprints.

--------------------

MR. JENNER -- "It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?"

MRS. PAINE -- "Well, I testified that---."

MR. JENNER -- "That was your impression, was it not?"

MRS. PAINE -- "And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping."

[...]

MR. JENNER -- "Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?"

MRS. PAINE -- "Yes, there is."

[...]

MR. JENNER -- "Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?"

MRS. PAINE -- "That's correct."

[...]

MR. JENNER -- "Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett. How many do you have there?"

MR. HOWLETT -- "There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored."

[...]

MR. JENNER -- "Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?"

MRS. PAINE -- "Yes, they are."

MR. JENNER -- "And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?"

MRS. PAINE -- "No, I do not."

MR. JENNER -- "And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22nd of November 1963?"

MRS. PAINE -- "None whatsoever."

[...]

MR. JENNER -- "Miss Reporter, the cream-colored curtain rod, we will mark Ruth Paine Exhibit 275, and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276."

----------------------------------------------

And there's also this from an earlier Warren Commission session with Ruth Paine:

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

You're wrong when you say that the curtain rods found in Ruth Paine's garage (Ruth Paine Exhibits 275 and 276) were "wrapped" in "paper". Ruth made it quite clear in her WC testimony that those 2 curtain rods were NOT "wrapped" in any kind of paper or wrapping at all. (See the testimony below.)

You're probably confusing the curtain rods with the other two packages that Ruth did unwrap in her garage during her WC session. Those two packages were wrapped in paper, with one of those paper packages containing venetian blinds and the other containing window shades (or "pull blinds"). But the two curtain rods in Ruth's garage were not wrapped at all. And, therefore, no paper wrapping connected with those rods could have possibly been checked for Oswald's (or anyone else's) fingerprints.

 

Well, Let's see if Ruth Paine said the wrapped items were blinds and shades, or curtain rods.

13 hours ago, Derek Thibeault said:

What do people think of this guy? He is definitely someone who speaks a lot, and I think he may have changed his story a couple of times. If I remember correctly he was brought in to the police station as well that day. Like Ruth Paine, not sure this guy is on the level but someone of you may have talked to him or know him.

I've talked to Wes on three occasions for a total of maybe an hour. I think he tells the truth as he remembers it. The record is clear, moreover, that he was one of the most problematic witnesses for the DPD, FBI, and WC. He said from day one that the bag they believed Oswald had used to bring in the rifle was 1) not the bag the DPD placed into evidence, and 2) too small to have held the rifle. After I explained to him that the official-story has Oswald bringing shipping paper and tape from the TSBD out to the Paine's house on the 21st, to wrap up his rifle, moreover, Frazier became adamant on another point. He declared that this did not happen. Period. (FWIW, it seems clear he was never asked about this by WC counsel Joe Ball because Ball knew what Frazier would say...and was afraid it would further "dirty" up the record...) 

6 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Well, Let's see if Ruth Paine said the wrapped items were blinds and shades, or curtain rods.

I think this is from Ruth Paine's Washington testimony. Jenner went back with her to Dallas and they found two curtain rods in the garage that were not wrapped. It seems possible then that Oswald did indeed take two wrapped curtain rods to work on the 22nd.

I looked into this a great deal a few years back and added a chapter to my website about it. I discovered that...

1. Neither Ruth Paine nor Michael Paine took a close look to see if any curtain rods were missing until 4 months after the assassination. (Michael took a quick look a few days after the shooting but saw a wrapped package that actually held blinds, not curtain rods.) 

2. The wrapped package containing curtain rods Ruth remembered placing in her garage was the exact size of the package Frazier said he saw in Oswald's possession.

3. The curtain rod in Oswald's rented room was damaged as of the evening of 11-22-63. No investigation was performed to find out how or when it was damaged. Oswald's landlady said it was damaged by the DPD, and at another time the press, but it appears she really had no idea when it was damaged and was only assuming someone other than Oswald had damaged the curtain rod.

4. The date on the FBI's memo informing the WC that the curtain rod had been damaged was typed over, which made it appear the WC did not know about this until after Oswald's landlady was interviewed by Ball. In any event, he asked her no questions regarding this, and failed to follow up on the FBI report in any way.

5. The set of curtain rods tested by the DPD for fingerprints were tested before the curtain rods retrieved from Mrs. Paine's garage by Jenner were retrieved. This should lead us to suspect, then, that there was another set of curtain rods that were made to disappear. This is supported, moreover, by the fact the rods tested by the DPD had prints on them, and the rods placed into evidence by the WC (presumably the rods retrieved from the garage) show no signs (such as a piece of tape with an arrow) of ever bearing a print.

In sum, then, this strongly suggests Oswald helped himself to a set of Mrs. Paine's curtain rods, and that this set was later found (perhaps at the TSBD). But then made to disappear... 

11 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Well, Let's see if Ruth Paine said the wrapped items were blinds and shades, or curtain rods.

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

In sum, then, this strongly suggests Oswald helped himself to a set of Mrs. Paine's curtain rods, and that this set was later found (perhaps at the TSBD). But then made to disappear.

But Ruth Paine maintained that she had only TWO curtain rods (total) in her garage. Whether they were wrapped in paper or not, the total number of rods that Ruth said she had in her garage was TWO. And that's the number of curtain rods that were found on a shelf in Ruth's garage during her WC testimony.

Pat,

Do you think Ruth was lying about having just two rods in her garage? Or do you think she was merely confused about how many rods she might have had in her house during the 1963-1964 time period?

I don't deny that my last suggestion is most certainly a possibility, particularly since Ruth was quite obviously hazy about the way the curtain rods were wrapped (or even if they were wrapped in paper at all).

But the thing that makes your suggestion unbelievable about Oswald possibly helping himself to a set of Ruth's rods is the fact that if Lee Oswald HAD done such a thing on 11/22/63, he most certainly would have admitted that fact to the police after his arrest. Instead, he tells Captain Fritz that Buell Frazier was the li@r when it comes the topic of any curtain rods.

It makes no sense for Oswald to deny all knowledge of any curtain rods unless Oswald had something ELSE inside that package that he was desperate to hide from the police.

(Yes, I know you're going to tell me that we don't really know anything that Oswald really told the cops after his arrest, and therefore I'm supposed to assume that the DPD was putting all kinds of things into LHO's mouth in order to frame him more conveniently. But forgive me if I don't follow you down that murky and unprovable path.)

25 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

It is not I who is confused, it is you. And I'm not going to let you confuse others by doing what you usually do, not telling the whole story.

Mrs. Paine testified that she had removed two venetian blinds from the windows in her bedroom and replaced them with pull down blinds. She then wrapped the venetian blinds she had removed and stored them in the garage. The two wrapped packages in the garage were venetian blinds and curtain rods. There were no other wrapped blinds in the garage. The pull blinds ( or pull down shades as you call them ) were on the windows.

8 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

The two wrapped packages in the garage were venetian blinds and curtain rods. There were no other wrapped blinds in the garage. The pull blinds (or pull down shades as you call them) were on the windows.

You're wrong, Gil.

In Ruth's testimony that took place in her garage, she definitely unwrapped TWO different wrapped packages....and then they took down the two curtain rods (which were not wrapped in anything) from a shelf.

Here's the testimony concerning the TWO distinctly separate wrapped packages [located at 9 H 422-423] (emphasis is my own)....

---------------------------------

MR. JENNER -- "Now I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains. ---- The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. Howlett, what does the package contain?"

MRS. PAINE -- "It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet, 6 inches."

MR. JENNER -- "And they are of the metal variety, are they not?"

MRS. PAINE -- "They are." ....

MR. JENNER -- "For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, and "Will call--M.R. Paine"." ....

MR. JENNER -- "Now, we see in back of this package that we have just described a much longer package also wrapped...in light-tan wrapping paper. .... And it is how long?"

MR. HOWLETT -- "3 feet, 9 inches long, as it is folded now."

MR. JENNER -- "And in general, is it a rectangular package?"

MR. HOWLETT -- "Yes, sir." ....

MR. JENNER -- "Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package?"

MRS. PAINE -- "My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds which I did have in the southeast bedroom." ....

MR. JENNER -- "Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here."

[Package is then opened.]

MR. JENNER -- "It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades."

MRS. PAINE -- "All right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the windows in the southeast bedroom."

That's ALL about when they checked it AFTER 11/22

Nobody was 100% sure on the situation (about the curtain rods) before 11/22

So it is still an option there were indeed wrapped curtain rods as Mrs.Paine at one point declared

TIMING...