Chris Davidson Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) On 5/2/2017 at 2:04 PM, Chris Davidson said: Simmons testimony stated this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OaGNId0g3UWRsakk/view?usp=sharing That baseline distance of 242.8 and angled 267ft from the Criminal Courts building. Sound familiar!!! Something like this in terms of relevant distances. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OSVJiQjJLSWd6eVU/view?usp=sharing Edited May 8, 2017 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) So of course I have questions.... Bottom line though... what are you claiming happened at z273? #1 The base of the Criminal Courts building appears to be at elevation 430ft. The limo elevation at z273 = 430 - 12.97ft (that's using z313 @ elevation 418.48 per CE884). 430’ elev. – 12.97’ elev. = 417.03’ which is lower than z313 at 418.48 (which is measured to the street). Not Possible(CE884) z255 = 416.4 z313 = 465.3 465.3-416.4 = 48.9’ / 18.3 = 2.67’ higher than z313 (CE884) 424.46 - 421.75 = 2.71’ higher than z313 average 2.69’ Z273 is about 2.69’ higher than z313 = 418.48 + 2.69 = 421.17 elevation not 417.03. #2 The height needed for a 25-degree downward angle is 113.2ft. (take your word for it)To where? A) Elm street 3.27’ above Elm or C) 54” above Elm? and to what at z273 = JFK? JC? Street? From what I see there is no shot at 273 unless 273 used to be 225For a shot at z273 to JFK Add 3.27’ to 420.466 to get CE884 results for JFK at z273… 423.736 Or add 54" or 4.5' to 420.466+4.5=424.97 for "actual" JFK 12.97’ (Vert drop) x 18.3’ = 237.351 horizontal base feet from z273 to a point 12.97 feet below elevation 430… the DCCC bldg is on the south side of Houston… would it not be 237.351’ to the 430 elevation line in the middle of Houston? And isn’t that more than 10’ to the base of the DCCC? #3 113.2 - 12.97ft = 100.23ft approx. In other words take the top of the DCCC, adjust for the elevation 100ft up in the corner of the Criminal Courts building is where you'll find the shooter.From the way you described the math, you are calculating to a spot on the street, not to JFK and to a point well in front of the DCCC building. Also, the 25 degree entry was a guess with who knows how much accuracy. Some stuff I found on the height of buildings in DP “On the northeast corner of Main and Houston streets, stands the Dallas County Criminal Courts building. The 8-story (plus basement), 124-foot-tall building was built in 1913-15, and housed two Dallas County criminal courts and the county jail. More importantly, the Dallas County Sheriff Department had their offices in this building. On the southeast corner of Elm and Houston streets is the Dallas County Records and Annex. The Annex is the whitish building that is predominantly closest to Dealey Plaza, with the Records Building east of it. The Annex was built in 1955, with its main facade facing Elm St. The Records building was built in 1926-28, and has a limestone exterior and gothic motif. The Annex is 7 stories high, and 80 feet of it face Houston St. On the south side of it is a steel dock connecting it with the County Courts building”. Edited May 8, 2017 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) David, Thanks for that. Yes, I made a mistake in adding to the elevation instead of subtracting. The elevation change from z313 to z273 is 1.587ft. Street elevation for z273 = 420.06, which, if you look at where I have it plotted with the intersecting lines (from a previous posting) is correct now. Change in elevation from Criminal Records Courts Building base is 430 - 420.06 = 9.94ft 113.2 - 9.94ft = 103.26ft high in Criminal Records Courts Building. 3.27ft vertical = 1 degree when converted from survey info on z313. Edited May 9, 2017 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) Also made the mistake of using the measurement from the wrong side of the DCCB. So corrected, it would look like this. 114.1 - 9.94 (elev change for z273) = 104.16 Sorry about that. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OTEFjSnVsTlF6ME0/view?usp=sharing P.S. Don't know exactly (which floor) where 104.1 ft is, up in the DCCB, so the graphic is just a guess. Edited May 9, 2017 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) Quote The "base" distance from z273 to the Criminal Courts building is 242.8ft. Not according to the 1"=20' survey plat. For this to be correct it would be 12.14" from z273 to any portion of the DCCC The north corner of the bldg is 12.3". And using the revised 104.1' as the height of the triangle I get 264, not 267. 242' is the hypotenuse for shot #2 at 419.07 (sic) 267' is the hypotenuse for the shot hitting the street at 418.35 from 70.3' elevation between #2 & #3 I see no significance to 264' or to z273 Chris... what's YOUR significance to Z273? JC had already been shot once... Plus.. please address where your endpoint is - JFK @ 54", JFK @ 3.27', JC, Street ??? I see that you'd like to place a shooter in the DCCC but don't we already know there was a shooter on the Records bldg? Weatherford? If the 25 degrees is a guess - which it was - the more likely location would be the Records Bldg roof... On 5/8/2017 at 10:59 PM, Chris Davidson said: The elevation change from z313 to z273 is 1.587ft.Street elevation for z273 = 420.06 Edited April 12, 2018 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Connally Stabilized. Right after the lightpost at z272 watch the order of activity from all people. What part of Connally do we eventually lose sight of? Rather's description of Connally is circa 273 and forward, we don't get to see all that he saw. It doesn't have to be the DCCB, in fact I would lean towards the Dal-Tex for this shot because of the lateral angle, but the 25 degrees by Shaw is troubling in terms of height calculations for this location. The endpoint is the location on the street. The location remains the same. The vertical location/angle to shooter changes depending on where the wound is placed. If I get shot at Station# 435.1, but shot in the shoulder, I still got shot at Station# 435.1. Previously stated, 3.27ft vertical = 1degree change. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005Ob0JnOF9LMUZIRHM/view?usp=sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said: It doesn't have to be the DCCB, in fact I would lean towards the Dal-Tex for this shot because of the lateral angle, but the 25 degrees by Shaw is troubling in terms of height calculations for this location. Hey Chris, ...just my 2 cents... from a "shooters" perspective I've always leaned towards the Dal-Tex, in the vicinity of the guy on the fire escape, as one of the logical shooting positions. I am no mathematician, by a long shot, so I'm not offering any opinion towards your calculations. I am fascinated by and following the conversation though (I think). -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Chris, In your opinion, disregarding any math for now: What view among the two provided would align more closely with the LOS (red line 25 degrees). I cloned the white car (red arrows) and moved it closer to where I believe the limo appears in z273. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OeWhfVEh6b1ItTzA/view?usp=sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Chris Davidson said: What view among the two provided would align more closely with the LOS (red line 25 degrees). I think that the DCCRB view on the left aligns more closely with the LOS you portray than the right photo. And now being shown that view, I think it's worthy of consideration too. The windows in the Dal-Tex that I was thinking of were in the vicinity of the 3rd-4th floor and below that photo, but it's been years since I considered it. **the reason I'd put the shooter on a lower floor is so that the shooting position can be set back inside the room providing ideal cover and concealment. The higher the floor the closer the shooter has to get to the window to have LOS. Edited May 10, 2017 by Chris Newton added ps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Thanks Chris, This is what would work for a 25 degree angle. The base distance to the setback roof = 308ft approx. That’s 244ft to the building base and another 64 ft back to the setback. The adjacent Criminal Courts Building (right-side) rooftop for comparison = 120ft The elev change to z273 = 9.94ft. 144ft-9.94ft = 134ft height for setback rooftop. A height of 144ft at a 25 degree angle = 308.8ft base. The shot would have been approx 340.7ft Of course the lateral angle would have to work. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OaEJsN3FUOHN3aE0/view?usp=sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said: The shot would have been approx 340.7ft That would still be an exceptional shot by a skilled sniper, not outside their abilities but it would have to be a pro. Thanks for the graphic. With the car in the same relative position would there be a similar angle (24-26 deg) to the SE corner 6th floor SBD window? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 The 6th floor window sill is elevation 490.9 z273 = elevation 420.06 Difference = 70.84ft Base measurement to 6th floor = 224.3ft Once again, this is measuring to the street. Adjust 1 degree = 3.27ft vertical, depending on location of wound. Difference of 25 degrees - 17.53 degrees = 7.47 degrees https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWm1IYlhFeHBVTE0/view?usp=sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Thank you Chris + David for your questions and insights. They have allowed the "process of elimination" sequence to answer them. Explanation to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OeExpWWlvbU9lT2s/view?usp=sharing The base distance from z273 to County Records Building Annex corner (Photo)= 256.25ft The rooftop = 80ft. The elev change = 430-420.06 = 9.94ft The angle needed for this shot to the street is 19.34 degrees or 19 degrees 20.4min The parallel scenario set forth by the WC (6th floor SE window) is thru Shaw's testimony who states somewhere around z236. If one will look back at CE884 data for z235, the angle set is 19degrees 26min. The angle change in CE884 for z235-z240 = 25 minutes or 5 minutes per frame. So z235 (19deg 26min)- 5min (z236) = 19deg21min which is a match. Some more coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) The limo was traveling at 11.2 mph(using landmarks 9 frames@8.1ft) from z263-z272 (as the shot occurred). 18.3/9=2.0333.. x 8.1 = 16.47ft per sec/1.47(1mph) =11.2mph Using 2165ft (given testimony) per sec as a bullet speed (not saying it was the MC used) a slope distance of 271.57ft would take 2.4 zframes to hit it's target. The shooter pulled the trigger at z270, it just missed JFK's head (hair flew up) Hickey saw it, and it drilled Connally through the back. That shot was intended to blow JFK's head off, not hit Connally. Slight bend in the road/Slightly high on the aim. If you look at the Connally stabilization closely, you'll see JFK's hair movement. I have a much better quality looped version I'll supply, eventually. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005ONFJTa3dWRHBjUFk/view?usp=sharing More coming. Edited May 11, 2017 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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