Oswald and Ruby: The Transcript

[John Simkin]

Article in today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/18/usa

A transcript claiming to detail Lee Harvey Oswald's plot to assassinate President John F Kennedy has been discovered in an old courtroom safe.

The record – described as reading like a conspiracy theorist's dream - appears to minute talks between Oswald and Jack Ruby, who killed Oswald after Kennedy's assassination.

Today, the Dallas County district attorney's office said other documents found included letters from former district attorney Henry Wade, the prosecuting lawyer in Ruby's trial.

But the apparent record of the conversation between Oswald and Ruby was probably fake, said the district attorney, Craig Watkins, and was instead likely to be long-forgotten material for a proposed film.

Oswald says in the transcript: "I can still do it, all I need is my rifle and a tall building; but it will take time, maybe six months to find the right place; but I'll have to have some money to live on while I do the planning."

The Dallas Morning News reported the transcript and other material were found in a safe on the 10th floor of the county courthouse.

The memorabilia – the rest of which was believed to be genuine – also included letters from Wade to Ruby, a gun holster and clothing that probably belonged to Ruby and Oswald, Watkins said.

The transcript suggests Ruby and Oswald met at Ruby's nightclub on October 4 1963, less than two months before the assassination on November 22 that year.

In it, they talked of killing the president because the mafia wanted to "get rid" of his brother, the then attorney general, Robert Kennedy.

Today, Gary Mack, the curator of the Sixth Floor Museum, which chronicles Kennedy's life, said he doubted the transcript was genuine.

He added it was well documented Oswald was in Irving, Texas, on the evening of October 4, and therefore could not have been in Ruby's nightclub.

"The fact that it's sitting in Henry Wade's file, and he didn't do anything, indicates he thought it wasn't worth anything," Mack said. "He probably kept it because it was funny. It's hilarious. It's like a bad B movie."

Terri Moore, an assistant to Watkins, today said she believed the transcript was part of a movie Wade was working on with producers.

The former prosecutor had discussed making the film, Countdown in Dallas, in letters found in the safe. "It's not real. Crooks don't talk like that," Moore said.

Watkins said the items were still being processed and would eventually be made available to the public.

[John Simkin]

The story from the Houston Chronicle adds a bit more detail to the story:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5550403.html

DALLAS — Long-hidden items and documents related to the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy were revealed for the first time Monday, after spending nearly two decades locked inside a courthouse safe.

Dallas County District Attorney Craig Watkins presented the articles at a Presidents Day news conference while standing next to brown and white file boxes stacked in a pyramid.

The items include a purported transcript between Kennedy assassin Lee Harvey Oswald and his killer, nightclub owner Jack Ruby; a leather gun holster that held the gun Ruby used to shoot Oswald; brass knuckles found on Ruby when he was arrested; and a movie contract signed by then-Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade.

Watkins said investigators told him about the contents of the blue, two-door safe shortly after he took office in 2007.

"And every DA up until the new administration decided that they wanted to keep it secret," he said. "What we decided, that this information was too important to keep secret."

One of the most intriguing items was the typed transcript of an alleged conversation between Oswald and Ruby. The transcript — which hasn't been examined by experts and has already been called farfetched by some — includes talk of killing the president at the behest of the Mafia.

"Now we don't know if this is an actual conversation or not," Watkins said. "But what we do know is that as a result of this find, it will open up the debate as to whether there was a conspiracy to assassinate the president."

Ruby killed Oswald on Nov. 24, 1963, two days after Oswald was arrested in the assassination of President Kennedy. Ruby was convicted and sentenced to death the following year. Ruby won an appeal of his conviction but died of cancer before he was retried.

The two-page transcript resembles one published by the Warren Commission, which investigated Kennedy's assassination and determined Oswald was the lone gunman.

In that report, the FBI concluded that a transcript of an alleged conversation between Oswald and Ruby was fake, and that it had been "re-created" for authorities by a now-deceased Dallas attorney who claimed he recognized Oswald in a newspaper photo as the man he saw talking to Ruby. The reconstruction alleges the men discussed killing the governor, but the two didn't name then-Texas Gov. John Connally.

The transcript Watkins showed Monday is also from Oct. 4, 1963, and allegedly happened at the Carousel Club, a Dallas nightclub. It begins with a discussion of how the "boys in Chicago" want to "get rid of" U.S. Attorney General Robert Kennedy, JFK's brother.

"There is a way to get rid of him without killing him," Oswald says.

"How's that?" Ruby responds.

"I can shoot his brother," Oswald says.

After a discussion of the logistics of shooting the president, Ruby says the money for the operation's coming from the Mafia.

"Are you with the Mafia?" Oswald asked.

"You're asking too many questions," Ruby responds.

Later, Ruby gives a lengthy warning that Oswald must not get caught or say anything, noting that "if you do talk, then the boys will make me follow you, wherever you go, and kill you."

Gary Mack, curator of the Sixth Floor Museum near where the president was shot, thinks the document displayed Monday could be one of many scripts written for films about the assassination.

"My best guess is somebody found that transcript, reworked it for the movies and Henry Wade wound up with a copy," Mack said.

A 1967 movie production deal signed by Wade, who prosecuted Ruby, was in the safe. It's unclear why the film was never produced, Watkins said.

The contents of the safe were likely Wade's personal files on the Kennedy assassination, something researchers have long-known he kept. When he left office in the 1980s, Wade thought the files were taken to his home but they apparently weren't, Mack said.

Staff from the DA's office were nearly finished scanning the scores of typed and handwritten papers and cataloging the items. Recordings and films kept in the safe had not yet been examined. Once the task is completed, Watkins said his office plans to turn over the articles to an organization that will continue making them public.

"We're looking forward to the opportunity to talk with the district attorney ... We would love to have these records," Mack said. "We believe very strongly that these records need to stay here in Dallas."

Neither the Ruby nor Kennedy families had been contacted about the items, Watkins said.

[William Kelly]

The "transcript," which implies that it is taken from a recording, has been identified as the jist of the conversation attorney Carroll E. Jarnagin claimed he overheard at the Carousel Club on October 4, between Ruby and Oswald.

Jarnagin was with one of his clients, dancer Robin Hood, aka Shirley Mauldin (3621 McKinney, apt. 211 B, daughter of Edna Doran - Vol. 26, p. 254), who denied she overheard the said conversation.

Jarnagin wrote a letter to JEH the day after the assassination, and claimed he tried to warn authorities before the assassination.

Hover bucked it back to Henry Wade, who had Jarnagin take a lie detector test, which he failed.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/26/2690-001.gif

Now this "transcript" is getting most of the publicity, and has been mentioned on CNN and MSNBC on regular rotation, so everybody in the USA and world will know about it.

Max Holland and Pozner are quoted in NYT and Gary Mack on MSNBC, and Emmey Award winning animator Dale K. Meyers is first out of the Blog with what starts out as a pretty fair report before quickly deteriating into the toilet, where Meyers is at home.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/

No Dale, it is not the current DA who is muddying the waters, it was Texas attorney Carroll E. Jarnagin, and DA Henry Wade who tried to parlay Jarnagin's "convesation" into a "transcript" and Hollywood, and every DA since then who has kept this "cache" secret.

Where were these government "officials" when the Assassination Records Review Board was in Dallas looking for just that type of government records, which the DA correctly maintains, belongs to the people and not the DA office or government.

When Harry Connick, Sr. took over as DA of New Orleans after Jim Garrison, he ordered the JFK Grand Jury records destroyed.

While the Ruby-Oswald "transcript" is a Red Herring, and will be shown to be bogus, the whole idea of boxes of previously unknown JFK assassination records being discovered is taking hold and setting the stage for the discovery of additional records.

These records may be identified as JFK assassination "memorabilia," and a contrived conversation written for a Hollywood movie may be such trivia, but among those records are other, real documents that should be considered evidence in a homicide.

The Dallas DA says that he is considering giving the records to the Sixth Floor or Smithsonian, when I say they should be given to a Grand Jury to determine if there is any evidence that can implicate suspects in crimes related to the assassination.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

I found it interesting that the Dallas DA indicated he thought there was a conspiracy. He of course has the legal authority to do something about his belief.

[Chris Courtwright]

The documents and materials need to be given to the National Archives. Let's remember that even though the ARRB sunset, the JFK Act has not.

To hell with Gary Mack and/or the Smithsonian.

[Bernice Moore]

Bill:

They do appear to be the Jarnagin conversation.....transcript..

See downloads on the right of article.....

http://www.star-telegram.com/dallas_news/story/481021.html

The full transcript, and Jarangin's letter to Hoover, is reprinted on

pages

124 - 126 in Michael Benson's "Encyclopedia Of The JFK Assassination."

B.........

[Steve Thomas]

Bernice,

The full transcript, and Jarangin's letter to Hoover, is reprinted on

pages

124 - 126 in Michael Benson's "Encyclopedia Of The JFK Assassination."

B.........

You can also read Jarnagin's letter to Hoover and an 8 page statement from him in CD 86 beginning on page 559 here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=335594

Steve Thomas

[Bernice Moore]

Bernice,

The full transcript, and Jarangin's letter to Hoover, is reprinted on

pages

124 - 126 in Michael Benson's "Encyclopedia Of The JFK Assassination."

B.........

You can also read Jarnagin's letter to Hoover and an 8 page statement from him in CD 86 beginning on page 559 here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=335594

Steve Thomas

*************************

Thanks Steve:

Here is just the first page.....

B........

Edited February 19, 2008 by Bernice Moore

[Christopher Hall]

Bernice,

The full transcript, and Jarangin's letter to Hoover, is reprinted on

pages

124 - 126 in Michael Benson's "Encyclopedia Of The JFK Assassination."

B.........

You can also read Jarnagin's letter to Hoover and an 8 page statement from him in CD 86 beginning on page 559 here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=335594

Steve Thomas

*************************

Thanks Steve:

Here is just the first page.....

B........

Do we know whether the FBI, in fact, received Jarnigan's letter/statement within 2 weeks of the assassination?

I would be dubious of the recollection of a lawyer who felt the need to visit his stripper/client at her place of employment.

On what matters did he represent her?

If he purported to be her lawyer and she didn't have any charges or lawsuits against her at that time, why did she have a lawyer?

I would speculate that stripping was not a particularly remunerative line of work in Dallas in 1963, so, if I am correct and if she had no pending legal matters, why would she go to the expense of hiring an attorney?

Edited February 19, 2008 by Christopher Hall

[John Simkin]

It is clear that the transcript is a fake. However, I believe the find does provide an insight into the assassination.

Wade of course interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald on the day he was arrested. Cliff Carter, on behalf of President Lyndon B. Johnson, phoned Wade three times on the night of the assassination. Remember, Billie Sol Estes claimed that Carter was involved in arranging the assassination of JFK.

According to Wade, Carter said that "any word of a conspiracy - some plot by foreign nations - to kill President Kennedy would shake our nation to its foundation. President Johnson was worried about some conspiracy on the part of the Russians… it would hurt foreign relations if I alleged a conspiracy - whether I could prove it or not… I was to charge Oswald with plain murder."

Wade was interviewed by J. Lee Rankin on 8th June, 1964. He claimed that he did not take any notes during the interview. He also said he had nothing to do with the statement that said he intended to charge Oswald with being involved in an international conspiracy to kill JFK.

Wade clearly had inside information on what Oswald and Ruby had been up to in November, 1963. It is therefore of great significance that he wrote a screenplay on a conspiracy to kill JFK entitled Countdown in Dallas. The film was never made.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwadeH.htm

[Steve Thomas]

Chris,

I would be dubious of the recollection of a lawyer who felt the need to visit his stripper/client at her place of employment.

On what matters did he represent her?

If he purported to be her lawyer and she didn't have any charges or lawsuits against her at that time, why did she have a lawyer?

While in Jarnagin's statement, he calls Robin Hood a "client", in her FBI interview, she says that they were dating.

See her FBI interview here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=599

Steve Thomas

[Christopher Hall]

Chris,

I would be dubious of the recollection of a lawyer who felt the need to visit his stripper/client at her place of employment.

On what matters did he represent her?

If he purported to be her lawyer and she didn't have any charges or lawsuits against her at that time, why did she have a lawyer?

While in Jarnagin's statement, he calls Robin Hood a "client", in her FBI interview, she says that they were dating.

See her FBI interview here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=599

Steve Thomas

Thanks.

I wonder whether Jarnigan ever represented Ruby on anything.

[Michael Hogan]

Wade clearly had inside information on what Oswald and Ruby had been up to in November, 1963. It is therefore of great significance that he wrote a screenplay on a conspiracy to kill JFK entitled Countdown in Dallas. The film was never made.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwadeH.htm

From the Dallas Morning News:

Mr. Wade wrote about the movie, Countdown in Dallas, in letters found in the safe. Mr. Wade prosecuted Ruby in Oswald's death, although the verdict was overturned and Ruby died of cancer in 1967 before his second trial could begin.

"I believe it important for the film to be factually correct, that it come from official files, that the witnesses who in any way were participants should appear in person in the film, and in my opinion, will result in an excellent film not only of interest at present but the record of events for history," Mr. Wade wrote.

It is unclear if any further work was ever done on the film

It seems that Wade envisioned a documentary-style film. John, I could find no evidence that Wade ever wrote a screenplay.

[William Kelly]

Wade clearly had inside information on what Oswald and Ruby had been up to in November, 1963. It is therefore of great significance that he wrote a screenplay on a conspiracy to kill JFK entitled Countdown in Dallas. The film was never made.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwadeH.htm

From the Dallas Morning News:

<B>

Mr. Wade wrote about the movie, Countdown in Dallas, in letters found in the safe. Mr. Wade prosecuted Ruby in Oswald's death, although the verdict was overturned and Ruby died of cancer in 1967 before his second trial could begin.

"I believe it important for the film to be factually correct, that it come from official files, that the witnesses who in any way were participants should appear in person in the film, and in my opinion, will result in an excellent film not only of interest at present but the record of events for history," Mr. Wade wrote.

It is unclear if any further work was ever done on the film

</B>

It seems that Wade envisioned a documentary-style film. John, I could find no evidence that Wade ever wrote a screenplay.

While I think the whole film issue is a sidebar to the real evidence in the cache, Robert Howard dug up some interesting news clips that indicate that the producer Wade had a contract with was Robert Larson, of Colordao Springs, Colorado.

It seems that Wade's cut was to be $20,000, not a million, and he backed out of the deal once the newspapers got wind of it and published a story about it.

Larson however, did go to Dallas and filmed some interviews with witnesses, which might be still around.

See: NYT, Daily Gleaner, Oct. 10, 67/LATimes Sept. 28, 67 and DMN, Aug. 22, 67/Sept. 15, 67.

BK

With kidos to RH, the Pope of Oak Cliff

[John Simkin]

A report in today's International Herald Tribune suggests that there might be political objectives behind this announcement. Craig Watkins is the first black district attorney ever of Dallas County.

The Tribune also reports that:

Adding fuel to the conspiracy fires, Watkins said his predecessors in the DA's office were "aware of the contents of the safe" but had decided to keep them secret "for whatever reason."

He said that may have been related to the "racist tone" of some of the documents that he said painted an unflattering portrait of the criminal justice system at the time.

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/0...K-DOCUMENTS.php