J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?

[Duke Lane]

Of course, if Oswald didn't shoot Tippit, then none of this is relevant. Can the time of Tippit's death/murder be established apart from Oswald's supposed movements? If Oswald was framed as the Sixth Floor sniper, then why couldn't he have been framed for the Tippit murder by one of the Oswald impersonators? - BK

Bill, this is "out of the box" thinking. The problem I keep coming across is that when someone proposes something "out of the box," a few people say "wow, I've never thought of that before," and the rest continue to examine it from smack dab in the middle of the box.

As we've seen above, if you posit that Tippit was shot at a time when Oswald couldn't have been there, the proposition is false because Oswald couldn't have gotten there in time. If you cite a piece of evidence, "it could be wrong," and we re-examine it from the perspective of when Oswald could have gotten there.

It reminds me of when teachers used to erase the chalk board, but vestiges of the earlier lesson remained and kids will be looking at the ghost of the math problem during spelling class. In sum, there's no such thing as a clean slate: most people can only view it from the perspective of what they've learned before.

[Duke Lane]

God Duke, you really are as long winded as hell, lets keep this nice and simple for the folks , yes?

God, Dennis, I didn't realize I was talking to idiots who can't quite handle compound sentences. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Or are you asking me to put it in terms that you can understand? I'd suggest that if you can understand it, most other people can too. I don't see any need to "dumb it down" for "the folks," but I'm sure they appreciate your concern for my overtaxing their intellect.

Fact: Earlene Roberts could have been two min fast in her estimate.

Fact: Bowley's watch could have been one min fast.

Fact: Oswald could have got to the scene in under twelve min.

Fact: Tippit could have been shot at ten past one.

Fact: The above shows Oswald could have killed Tippit.

Fact: Your earlier statement that "That's why it doesn't matter which way Oswald got to 10th & Patton because, no matter which way he presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast" is plainly inaccurate.

Duke, you're a damn good researcher, arguably the best on this forum but you have a bad habit of presenting your opinion as fact, its not.

I present facts and tell you what I think of them, or what I think they mean. You don't have to agree, but your disagreement doesn't establish a different fact.

Tell you what: start at 1:16 and work your way backward to 12:30 or earlier. Use the WC times, as well as conflicting statements under oath (e.g., Whaley's statement of how long it took him to drive the cab route in his own vehicle, versus how long it took the AAG to drive Whaley's cab over the same route with Whaley as a passenger), as well as reasonable estimates for other things to have occurred, such as the gathering of the crowd before Bowley's arrival.

If 1:16 is the late end of the timeline, the early end is when McWatters was let go from the check point at St Paul Street. You do the work this time and I'll tell you where I think it's wrong.

Feel free to explain it in detail for "the folks." I think they'll "get it" even if you don't.

[Denis Pointing]

God Duke, you really are as long winded as hell, lets keep this nice and simple for the folks , yes?

God, Dennis, I didn't realize I was talking to idiots who can't quite handle compound sentences. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Or are you asking me to put it in terms that you can understand? I'd suggest that if you can understand it, most other people can too. I don't see any need to "dumb it down" for "the folks," but I'm sure they appreciate your concern for my overtaxing their intellect.

Fact: Earlene Roberts could have been two min fast in her estimate.

Fact: Bowley's watch could have been one min fast.

Fact: Oswald could have got to the scene in under twelve min.

Fact: Tippit could have been shot at ten past one.

Fact: The above shows Oswald could have killed Tippit.

Fact: Your earlier statement that "That's why it doesn't matter which way Oswald got to 10th & Patton because, no matter which way he presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast" is plainly inaccurate.

Duke, you're a damn good researcher, arguably the best on this forum but you have a bad habit of presenting your opinion as fact, its not.

I present facts and tell you what I think of them, or what I think they mean. You don't have to agree, but your disagreement doesn't establish a different fact.

Tell you what: start at 1:16 and work your way backward to 12:30 or earlier. Use the WC times, as well as conflicting statements under oath (e.g., Whaley's statement of how long it took him to drive the cab route in his own vehicle, versus how long it took the AAG to drive Whaley's cab over the same route with Whaley as a passenger), as well as reasonable estimates for other things to have occurred, such as the gathering of the crowd before Bowley's arrival.

If 1:16 is the late end of the timeline, the early end is when McWatters was let go from the check point at St Paul Street. You do the work this time and I'll tell you where I think it's wrong.

Feel free to explain it in detail for "the folks." I think they'll "get it" even if you don't.

No that's fine for me Duke, I understand it all perfectly well thank you. You've made it abundantly clear that neither you nor anyone else can claim a definitive time for the Tippit slaying, the witness testimony is just too contradictory, and yet you still keep trying to state as fact that "Oswald couldn't have done it" or "Oswald couldn't have got there in time", like I said Duke, you are blowing hot air. And you damn well know it. P.S. Do try not to keep throwing these little hissy fits and tantrums every time someone 'dares' to disagree with you please. I realize you've had some articles published but frankly your head is so far up your own backside I truly do worry about you suffocating.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Denis Pointing

[William Kelly]

While I think the original question of this thread should be addressed (was Tippit part of the conspiracy?), it seems that the question of whether Oswald was Tippit's killer is of primary interest.

Here's some divergent tests that give you some interesting street scapes of the crime scene and of Oak Cliff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8D6NuLIhw

WC Photos of Tippit Murder Scene:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/...t_Shooting_-_p1

Edited July 24, 2009 by William Kelly

[Duke Lane]

... like I said Duke, you are blowing hot air. And you damn well know it. P.S. Do try not to keep throwing these little hissy fits and tantrums every time someone 'dares' to disagree with you please. I realize you've had some articles published but frankly your head is so far up your own backside I truly do worry about you suffocating.

Tsk. Despite your truly enlightening and enlivening sense of humor, please try to stay on topic. Nobody cares about my beathing or your opinion of it.

You've made it abundantly clear that neither you nor anyone else can claim a definitive time for the Tippit slaying ....

Have I? If you say so. I've also made it abundantly clear that it wasn't at 1:16 or even a minute or two before that, but at least several minutes before that. Whether that was at 1:05 or 1:07 or 1:09, if it took Oswald more than 11 minutes but less than 12 to get there, then he had to have left the rooming house earlier than 1:00 to make that walk. Each preceding milestone must then be moved correspondingly backward to accomodate "known" time lapses. Ultimately, it has Oswald leaving the TSBD before the shots were fired.

If Oswald left 1026 after 1:00 and the shooting took place before 1:10 or even 1:12 (when Helen Markham should have been getting onto her bus), and especially if it took place between 1:06 (Markham's estimate) and 1:10 (when Bowley arrived after the shooting), then Oswald either ran there or had other transportation. OR it was someone other than Oswald who pulled the trigger.

Just for curiosity: any guesses why two other cops - one whose normal patrol was out east by Garland, the other whose beat was up north by Carrollton and Farmers Branch - happened to be in Oak Cliff before and during Tippit's reassignment?

[Chuck Robbins]

... like I said Duke, you are blowing hot air. And you damn well know it. P.S. Do try not to keep throwing these little hissy fits and tantrums every time someone 'dares' to disagree with you please. I realize you've had some articles published but frankly your head is so far up your own backside I truly do worry about you suffocating.

Tsk. Despite your truly enlightening and enlivening sense of humor, please try to stay on topic. Nobody cares about my beathing or your opinion of it.

You've made it abundantly clear that neither you nor anyone else can claim a definitive time for the Tippit slaying ....

Have I? If you say so. I've also made it abundantly clear that it wasn't at 1:16 or even a minute or two before that, but at least several minutes before that. Whether that was at 1:05 or 1:07 or 1:09, if it took Oswald more than 11 minutes but less than 12 to get there, then he had to have left the rooming house earlier than 1:00 to make that walk. Each preceding milestone must then be moved correspondingly backward to accomodate "known" time lapses. Ultimately, it has Oswald leaving the TSBD before the shots were fired.

If Oswald left 1026 after 1:00 and the shooting took place before 1:10 or even 1:12 (when Helen Markham should have been getting onto her bus), and especially if it took place between 1:06 (Markham's estimate) and 1:10 (when Bowley arrived after the shooting), then Oswald either ran there or had other transportation. OR it was someone other than Oswald who pulled the trigger.

Just for curiosity: any guesses why two other cops - one whose normal patrol was out east by Garland, the other whose beat was up north by Carrollton and Farmers Branch - happened to be in Oak Cliff before and during Tippit's reassignment?

Since you said guess, I'll be happy to.

My guess is that one or both of them could be the shooter(s) of Tippit.

I have wondered for years now why the one cop did not respond when paged by dispatch, and further, why his call sign (I believe it was 56) was not mentioned again in the available transcript after being paged by dispatch.

[Chuck Robbins]

It's clear that Oswald did it at 1:15 because there's nothing to say that he didn't or couldn't have.

That statement is not accurate Duke. Read the information contained in Judge Joe Brown's Autopsy Permit. Consider that the time given [1:15 p.m.] would have been after Tippett had been picked up and transported to the hospital.

You're right: the statement is not accurate. It was made with tongue firmly in cheek.

It was made in response to an earlier comment that it "isn't possible" to determine any kind of timeline regarding Tippit's death, which claim began by questioning Earlene Roberts' reliability ... as if anything that Oswald was doing at any time had anything at all to do with the murder. First we begin with the conclusion and then we examine the possibilities: Oswald shot Tippit, so could he have gotten there in time?

The answer, of course, is "yes" ... but only if we first make the underlying presumption that Tippit was shot at a time late enough for Oswald to have been able to cover the 9/10-mile distance. I think we're safe in saying that Oswald couldn't have run a four-minute mile; does anyone disagree? (I didn't think so.) So, if Tippit was killed in less time after LHO was seen elsewhere (in other cases, we'd call that an alibi!), then it means that ... whoa! Tippit couldn't have been killed that early!

Get it?

The proof is that he could have gotten there in under 12 minutes, which was before the shooting had been reported (and clearly the report wasn't made before Tippit was shot; we can all agree on that, too). That the shooting likewise could have occurred at any time prior to the 1:16 report is limited by the least amount of time it could take Oswald to get from one place to the next: if he could run a six-minute mile, then the shooting could have occurred as early as 1:10, but since there's no evidence that he could do that, it's not possible for Tippit to have been shot that early.

Simple, isn't it?

All you have to do is start with a firm conclusion - Oswald shot Tippit - and the evidence will support it. Where it might not, it's simple enough to realize that people's perceptions are not always correct - Earlene Roberts' time estimates were probably wrong, as Bowley's watch probably was, too - so at the very least, they don't undermine the conclusion. Since there's no way that unreliable evidence can prove anything beyond the all-too-obvious conclusion, then the conclusion must be correct.

Judge Brown's order can't be correct, at least not relative to DPD radio time, since the shooting wasn't reported over the radio until 1:16; at that time, the body was still in the street. It would imply that Judge Brown knew Tippit was dead before DPD did.

If it is correct, then it's not based upon the time he signed the order nor on the time Tippit arrived at the hospital dead, but possibly on the time the ambulance attendants estimated that they had picked him up, already dead. Today, EMTs can pronounce; then, it's not impossible that medically trained ambulance drivers could do so, but that, not being doctors, they'd have nevertheless rushed him to the hospital "just in case."

So, once again, we are left with this evidence:

For a 1:05 estimate:

• An unanswered radio call to the officer prior to 1:04
  
• A woman who took the bus to work every day at the same time who said, first, that it was 1:06 and later that she'd "be willing to bet" that it was 1;06 or 1:07 (and being adjudged "confused" because of these markedly different times);
  
• A man who got out of his car after the officer was on the ground and after a crowd had gathered who looked at his watch and said it was 1:10.
  

For a later estimate:

• A "citizen" radio call at 1:16
  
• Oswald couldn't get there any sooner
  

Arguing against the latter are these:

• prior to Bowley making the radio call, Donnie Benavides had been trying to do so unsuccessfully for a minute or longer;
  
• prior to taking the mike from Benavides, Bowley had gotten close enough to Tippit to give him a cursory examination and decide that he was "beyond help" (and had picked up his gun from the street);
  
• Bowley had walked half-a-block from his parked car after having driven it a half-block from Denver Street;
  
• A small crowd had already gathered when Bowley first saw Tippit lying in the street; and
  
• The small crowd had time to gather.
  

So unless one is willing to suggest that Oswald shot Tippit with an audience surrounding him, it's pretty clear that Tippit was dead at least two, three or four minutes before the radio call, and very possibly longer, giving him eight minutes to get there with a crowd present, or even less if one considers that crowds don't form instantaneously.

If there's a problem with that, then one simply realizes that Earlene Roberts was wrong, and it wasn't even as late as 1:00 when Oswald arrived at the rooming house, and/or that he didn't stay anywhere near as long as she'd estimated. And Whaley and the FBI were wrong, that it either took less time to get to where Whaley had dropped Oswald off or that he'd left his cab stand earlier than presumed. In the latter case, it also means that Cecil McWatters' estimates were wrong, as was the route supervisor's releasing him from the time-check stop too early. This in turn means either that Oswald got to where he'd gotten onto the bus earlier than presumed, and again that the FBI agents who timed the walk to that location did it entirely too slow, or that Oswald had left the TSBD well before 12:33 and therefore before he encountered Baker and Truly in the lunch room and possibly before he'd even shot the President. Ultimately, it proves that JFK was not shot at 12:30 as we've all suspected, and that both the clock over the TSBD on the Hertz sign was also wrong, and so was the DPD clock that we've all been using as a gauge of time.

So, back to my inaccurate statement: there is no evidence, and since there's no evidence, it must have occurred exactly as proposed. Please don't let facts get in the way; they have a way of working themselves out to our satisfaction.

I believe that you and I agree that Oswald did not kill Tippit.

There are some people here that will never accept any perspective other than an Oswald killed Tippit scenario.

Back to the original topic, was Tippit involved in the conspiracy?

That is a hard question for me to answer. I still reserve judgement on that issue.

[Chuck Robbins]

God Duke, you really are as long winded as hell, lets keep this nice and simple for the folks , yes?

God, Dennis, I didn't realize I was talking to idiots who can't quite handle compound sentences. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Or are you asking me to put it in terms that you can understand? I'd suggest that if you can understand it, most other people can too. I don't see any need to "dumb it down" for "the folks," but I'm sure they appreciate your concern for my overtaxing their intellect.

Fact: Earlene Roberts could have been two min fast in her estimate.

Fact: Bowley's watch could have been one min fast.

Fact: Oswald could have got to the scene in under twelve min.

Fact: Tippit could have been shot at ten past one.

Fact: The above shows Oswald could have killed Tippit.

Fact: Your earlier statement that "That's why it doesn't matter which way Oswald got to 10th & Patton because, no matter which way he presumably got there, he couldn't have done it that fast" is plainly inaccurate.

Duke, you're a damn good researcher, arguably the best on this forum but you have a bad habit of presenting your opinion as fact, its not.

I present facts and tell you what I think of them, or what I think they mean. You don't have to agree, but your disagreement doesn't establish a different fact.

Tell you what: start at 1:16 and work your way backward to 12:30 or earlier. Use the WC times, as well as conflicting statements under oath (e.g., Whaley's statement of how long it took him to drive the cab route in his own vehicle, versus how long it took the AAG to drive Whaley's cab over the same route with Whaley as a passenger), as well as reasonable estimates for other things to have occurred, such as the gathering of the crowd before Bowley's arrival.

If 1:16 is the late end of the timeline, the early end is when McWatters was let go from the check point at St Paul Street. You do the work this time and I'll tell you where I think it's wrong.

Feel free to explain it in detail for "the folks." I think they'll "get it" even if you don't.

No that's fine for me Duke, I understand it all perfectly well thank you. You've made it abundantly clear that neither you nor anyone else can claim a definitive time for the Tippit slaying, the witness testimony is just too contradictory, and yet you still keep trying to state as fact that "Oswald couldn't have done it" or "Oswald couldn't have got there in time", like I said Duke, you are blowing hot air. And you damn well know it. P.S. Do try not to keep throwing these little hissy fits and tantrums every time someone 'dares' to disagree with you please. I realize you've had some articles published but frankly your head is so far up your own backside I truly do worry about you suffocating.

Is there no evidence which indicates that Tippit was shot at a time that Oswald was somewhere else?

How do you explain a time of death reported to be 1:15?

Could you give a reasonable timeline for an ambulance to be dispatched, drive to the victim, pick up the victim, drive to the hospital, drop off the victim, have a Dr. examine a victim, then make a determination that the victim is dead, then, finally call the time of death?

Let's not forget the initial confusion in the transcripts regarding the location where the shooting occurred.

[Bernice Moore]

Quote : Chuck: Is there no evidence which indicates that Tippit was shot at a time that Oswald was somewhere else?

How do you explain a time of death reported to be 1:15?

Could you give a reasonable timeline for an ambulance to be dispatched, drive to the victim, pick up the victim, drive to the hospital, drop off the victim, have a Dr. examine a victim, then make a determination that the victim is dead, then, finally call the time of death?

Let's not forget the initial confusion in the transcripts regarding the location where the shooting occurred.

Hi Chuck:

Here is a bit of information....

You will note below within the Document, it states that Tippit was pronounced dead at 1.30 pm...

Also that LHO was arrested in the Balcony....

A few links that you may find interesting......

Interview - Butch Burroughs of the Texas Theatre states LHO entered the Theatre at approximately 1.05 pm..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcpg4mNEWf4&NR=1

Jim Ewell's account ....

News Reporter

""Anyway, when we arrived at the Texas Theatre, we parked right in front and everybody jumped out and went into the lobby. There were other police cars getting there, too. I was very familiar with the Texas Theatre, having lived close by back when we were a younger married couple. At that time, they had some kind of stairway up to the balcony, and I remember somebody kept shouting, “Turn on the house lights! Will somebody please turn on the house lights?”

For some reason, instead of following the police into the main part of the theater, the lower floor, I went up these stairs into the balcony. And there, there must have been about fifteen or twenty high school age boys up there watching. They’d skipped school to watch double feature war movies. One of them was “War Is Hell.”

Then there was a commotion. I stepped to the railing where I could look down onto this. Just about that time the house lights came up and Nick McDonald made his move on Oswald. So I’m in a position looking down on where Oswald sat. not knowing who he was. Then I saw the fight that broke out. First, Nick was shouting, and then there was just a swarm of officers that came in. What I’m describing is what appeared to be a football play from above. John Toney remembered that some officer screamed out that they were breaking his arm. Another officer, Paul Bentley, the Chief Polygraph Examiner for the Dallas Police Department, who was well known to us all, came out of there with a broken ankle. What I saw rather astounded me. Someone was trying to hold the barrel of a shotgun, or train the barrel of a shotgun down among the heads of these officers. I thought, “What’s he going to do with the shotgun?” I didn’t know what was going on, but this person was holding a shotgun; I did see that. And it all happened in a matter of seconds!

When the fight broke out down there, these kids stampeded out of the balcony, then I followed them down."

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/History/The_d...need/Ewell.html

In Aubrey Rike's book.....the ambulance driver..who picked up the Epileptic on Houston and what he, they went through on Nov.22/63......"“At the Door of Memory: A Witness to History and the Assassination of President Kennedy""

I believe ( memory here ) will check...He mentions that the ambulance, for Tippit would arrive in about 5 minutes, as

it was stationed at like, a sub-station, for that area....

The Incredible Post-Assassination Journey Of Lee Harvey Oswald

http://bigunreal.tripod.com/oswaldpost.html

Right now I cannot find the info on the man who saw another being taken by DPD out the side or backdoor of the Theatre

under arrest,who thought that he has seen LHO all these years, will have another look.....

Some photos below,

B.......

Edited August 7, 2009 by Bernice Moore

[Duke Lane]

Just for curiosity: any guesses why two other cops - one whose normal patrol was out east by Garland, the other whose beat was up north by Carrollton and Farmers Branch - happened to be in Oak Cliff before and during Tippit's reassignment?

Since you said guess, I'll be happy to.

My guess is that one or both of them could be the shooter(s) of Tippit.

I have wondered for years now why the one cop did not respond when paged by dispatch, and further, why his call sign (I believe it was 56) was not mentioned again in the available transcript after being paged by dispatch.

I'd think that would be a good guess.

Dispatch called for 56 twice - once asking if anyone else knew where he was(!) - during the first minute after the shooting, and got no response. It was during this time that 91 - W.D. Mentzel, assigned to central Oak Cliff - called in "clear" from an unexplained traffic call. He later claimed to have called in a "Signal 5" (meal break), and in fact he reported that he went to the Luby's Cafeteria on West Jefferson, and he is not heard on Channel One until after 1:00.

Patrolman W.P. Parker, who was assigned to district 56 in far east Dallas (see map below), called in just before 12:45 to say that he'd be "clear for five." Dispatch acknowledged that and asked his location, which he said was "East Jefferson." A search of all Dallas streets will return only one "Jefferson" anywhere in the city, in Oak Cliff, with East Jefferson only being between Zangs Boulevard and downtown, including the viaduct over the Trinity River.

Parker was somewhere within a mile of central Oak Cliff.

One minute later, JD Tippit was ordered into Central Oak Cliff. Other than a description of the suspect in the downtown shooting, it was the very next transmission originated by dispatch.

Two minutes later, Officer J.M. Lewis, assigned to district 35 in northeast Dallas, calls in "clear," and asked his location says he's at "105 Corinth" (see Google map). When Tippit had been ordered into central Oak Cliff, he'd indicated his location was at Kiest & Bonnie View; he is next heard from nine minutes later at 8th & Lancaster. The most direct and sensible route to take from the first location to the other to go into central Oak Cliff is shown on this map; any other route would involve going through central Oak Cliff first.

Look here to see where 105 Corinth is relative to JD Tippit's route into Oak Cliff, and the approximate time it takes to get there from where Tippit was.

When 35 called in "clear" at 12:47, he was told to "remain in service." Five minutes later - seven minutes after Tippit left Kiest and Bonnie View - he called in again, stating that he'd "go on down that way, downtown," which dispatch agrees to without argument after having previously told him to remain in service, presumably in his own district (if the dispatcher didn't know that 105 Corinth wasn't in district 35, which is hard to believe ... but not as hard to fathom as that dispatch would tell him to "remain in service" in another district 10 miles away!).

Two minutes later, at about 12:54:30, Tippit said he was at 8th and Lancaster.

So, to recap, we have:

12:30 - JFK is shot

12:33± - Dispatch can't raise 56 on the radio

12:44:50± - 56 calls in "clear for five" on East Jefferson ... in Oak Cliff

12:45:00 - Dispatch announces description of downtown shooting suspect. 35 calls in clear immediately after. Dispatch does not respond.

12:45:30± - Tippit is ordered into central Oak Cliff

12:47:00 - 35 calls in "clear" again, gives his location at "105 Corinth" ... also in Oak Cliff

12:52:30± - Tippit passes 105 Corinth

12:52:45± - 35 radios that he's going downtown

12:54:30± - Tippit is at 8th & Lancaster

What makes this even more interesting is that according to dispatcher Murray Jackson several years later on a television broadcast, the reason that he'd ordered Tippit into central Oak Cliff is that Jackson realized that "we were draining resources from Oak Cliff" - in fact, by the time Tippit got his order, there were only three other officers in Oak Cliff besides him and Mentzel, who was presumably(?) at lunch - and there wouldn't be anyone available to answer emergency calls in the area.

Given that, it's odd that one of those remaining officers, W.E. Smith - in district 77 directly west of Tippit's patrol district - was ordered downtown less than a minute after Jackson "realized we were draining resources from Oak Cliff," further draining those resources. And despite the fact that 56 and 35 were in the Oak Cliff area, neither of them was called on to shore up those depleted resources, and 35 was also "allowed" to go downtown (where we can only presume he'd actually gone).

R.C. Nelson, assigned to district 87 southwest of Tippit's district 78 and who was also ordered into central Oak Cliff with Tippit, was nearly in central Oak Cliff when he received the order, on Marsalis at the R.L. Thornton Expressway. Two and a half minutes later at 12:48, he indicated that he was at the "south end [of the] Houston Street viaduct," which Google says is 1.2 miles and three minutes away from his previous location. He was at the north end of Oak Cliff, farther from "central Oak Cliff" than he'd been when he got the order to go there.

Four and a half minutes later, at about 12:52:30, he indicated that he was "out down here" without any question from dispatch either why he was "out" (unavailable) or where "down here" was, but merely a simple "10-4." It later came to pass that "down here" was at the TSBD. (Google thinks it takes five minutes to get there, not 4½.) The only officers officially left in Oak Cliff were Tippit, Mentzel (at lunch) and R.W. Walker, presumably on duty in districts 85 and 86; there is no record of his activities other than his response to Tippit's shooting and being on Jefferson Boulevard within three minutes of the report (he didn't see anyone) and having gotten a description of the Oak Cliff suspect within six.

(The description was of "a white male, about thirty, five eight, black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, a white shirt and dark slacks.")

At no time during the interval from 12:30 until 1:07 when he radioed in "clear" (available) did dispatchers ever attempt to contact Mentzel, and gave him no instructions until four minutes later when he was sent to investigate an accident at 817 W Davis, remaining there until 1:19 when he cleared and was told of Tippit's shooting. (Dispatch attempted to contact him after the "citizen call" and after twice calling for Tippit, but Mentzel didn't answer.)

There are only two short broadcasts from 35, neither indicating where he was or what he was doing. For all the need to find 56 immediately after the downtown shooting, and to need to know where he was fifteen minutes later when he finally did call in, there were no further broadcasts to or from him through after 2:00.

As interesting(?) asides to all of this, East Jefferson Boulevard winds west and north from central Oak Cliff to join with Zangs Boulevard again about a block east of the former Gloco Station, where Tippit was supposedly sighted before his death. Is it possible that it was actually Officer Parker who was there instead?

Also, for all of the attempts to determine the identity of the driver of the police car seen by Earlene Roberts in front of the rooming house, no officer who filed a report claimed to have been in that area at all. Was Earlene so blind that she could not distinguish a police car from any other, or did someone simply not respond to the investigation entirely truthfully? If the latter, what was there to conceal if they were there on legitimate business? J.M. Lewis reported that he was downtown at the crime scene all afternoon, and W.P. Parker indicated only that he'd manned a (one-officer) "roadblock" in his district.

[William Kelly]

This is how it went down, up to a point....

You're Bob Dylan? NJ police want to see some ID

The incident began at 5 p.m. when a resident said a man was wandering around a low-income, predominantly minority neighborhood several blocks from the oceanfront looking at houses.

The police officer drove up to Dylan, who was wearing a blue jacket, and asked him his name. According to Woolley, the following exchange ensued:

"What is your name, sir?" the officer asked.

"Bob Dylan," Dylan said.

"OK, what are you doing here?" the officer asked.

"I'm on tour," the singer replied.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090815/ap_on_...eople_bob_dylan

By WAYNE PARRY, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 31 mins ago

Rock legend Bob Dylan was treated like a complete unknown by police in a New Jersey shore community when a resident called to report someone wandering around the neighborhood.

Dylan was in Long Branch, about a two-hour drive south of New York City, on July 23 as part of a tour with Willie Nelson and John Mellencamp that was to play at a baseball stadium in nearby Lakewood.

A 24-year-old police officer apparently was unaware of who Dylan is and asked him for identification, Long Branch business administrator Howard Woolley said Friday.

"I don't think she was familiar with his entire body of work," Woolley said.

The incident began at 5 p.m. when a resident said a man was wandering around a low-income, predominantly minority neighborhood several blocks from the oceanfront looking at houses.

The police officer drove up to Dylan, who was wearing a blue jacket, and asked him his name.

According to Woolley, the following exchange ensued:

"What is your name, sir?" the officer asked.

"Bob Dylan," Dylan said.

"OK, what are you doing here?" the officer asked.

"I'm on tour," the singer replied.

A second officer, also in his 20s, responded to assist the first officer. He, too, apparently was unfamiliar with Dylan, Woolley said.

The officers asked Dylan for identification. The singer of such classics as "Like a Rolling Stone" and "Blowin' in the Wind" said that he didn't have any ID with him, that he was just walking around looking at houses to pass some time before that night's show.

The officers asked Dylan, 68, to accompany them back to the Ocean Place Resort and Spa, where the performers were staying. Once there, tour staff vouched for Dylan.

The officers thanked him for his cooperation.

"He couldn't have been any nicer to them," Woolley added.

How did it feel? A Dylan publicist did not immediately return a telephone call seeking comment Friday.

Edited August 15, 2009 by William Kelly

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi All,

I have been away for a while but I see Duke is still on his game. Excellent read and logic Duke - congrats.

Steve

[William Kelly]

[Can anyone get a copy of the Texas Ranger affidavit mentioned below? I'd also like to identify the father of Robinson's friend, a Dallas policeman. Is it Frank M. Martin? Is there anything else available on this story? - BK]

The Incredible Story of Mike Robinson by Walt Brown, Ph.D

Reprinted from "Treachery in Dallas."

From Probable Cause Australia:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:9MdD-T...=clnk&gl=us

Anyone who does not believe strongly in either irony or coincidence will have to rethink their attitudes when they hear the revelations given to me by Mike Robinson.

As it is the central thesis of my work that elements within the Dallas Police Department had a far greater involvement in the JFK assassination than heretofore considered, it seems odd that the same police department "gave" me Mike Robinson.

November 22, 1993, was the thirtieth anniversary of the tragedy in Dealey Plaza, and, as such, was the occasion for the dedication of that area as an historic landmark. I arrived there with my wife and Texas researcher Russ McLean early enough to be close enough to be able to see the goings-on. But the local blues were forcing people out of the plaza until all was ready. I was thus manhandled from the reflecting pool across the street to the TSBD, then around the corner to a point on Houston between the TSBD and the former Dal-Tex building. When I met resistance indicating I could be pushed no farther, I found myself next to Mike, who was giving an interview to a local television network.

What he had to say was incredible, and the TV anchorperson was lost for the right questions to ask. She did ask, however, if Mike was willing to take his story to the FBI, and he said he would--if the film crew would come with him to document the event. They declined.

I subsequently contacted Mike, as I had copied his name and phone number from the reporter's notes (Woodward or Bernstein I'm not). I explained that I had been standing next to him for the interview and that I had heard most of his comments, but that I just wanted to make sure I had heard them correctly. Mr. Robinson, not knowing my voice over the phone from Adam's, checked me out through people in Texas and only then shared his story.

Mike Robinson was fourteen years old the day the president was killed. Since I had been sixteen at the time, I felt I could relate to the emotions he told of.

He had watched the motorcade at Main and Harwood, the corner where Dallas police headquarters was located, with a friend whose father was a higher-up in the police. I have since been able to confirm the existence of both the friend, his father's rank, and his father's perhaps too-deep curiosity as to the events of November 22.

After the motorcade passed, the boys went to a theater, bought their tickets and popcorn, and then heard the rapidly spreading news that the president had been shot. Figuring that headquarters would be the center of subsequent action, he and his friend hastened back there in time to get to the third floor, check in with the friend's father, and then see Lee Oswald being led out of the elevator. Since this was a once-in-a-lifetime adventure for a young boy, and since the media were mobbing the area anyway, they stayed and observed the goings-on.

Mike indicated that he overheard in conversation that it was clear to anyone who was talking that the police were convinced beyond all reasonable doubt, even as early as 2:30 P.M., that Oswald was the culprit on both counts. He also learned that J. D. Tippit had been killed. That event, while tragic, was not overly troubling to Mike, as many neighborhood kids knew Tippit from his comings and goings at Austin's Barbeque, and Tippit had arrested Mike's brother for drinking beer in public. The local teenagers, it was noted, had no use for Tippit, whom they viewed as your garden-variety asshole.

Putting that aside, Mike and his friend saw Oswald moved from the various places he was shunted to, and also saw him inside one of the glass homicide cubicles, until such time as newspaper was taped up to keep out the curious. Mike also saw Bobby Hargis, the motorcycle officer splattered by particulate matter from the president, return to headquarters with blood and brain matter on him and his helmet, and when the realization of events hit Hargis, he violently slammed the helmet into a wall and literally went berserk, requiring a number of other officers to restrain him (an event unknown to--or unreported by -- the Warren Commission).

As afternoon approached evening, a trip to the rest room became an absolute necessity, but with extra police and media on the third floor, that was impossible. So Mike was taken, by the ranking officer whose son he was with, down to the lowest level of the building, where the officers had their lockers, and told that the rest room was just past the locker room.

While in a toilet/stall, the enormity of events hit Mike hard and he became emotional about them now that he found himself literally alone with the knowledge that the president he had waved to just a few hours earlier was now in a coffin. As this emotional turmoil came upon him, the rest room serenity was broken by the arrival of three individuals. Not to appear a sissy or be embarrassed, Mike lifted his feet and "hid" in the stall so that anyone observing would think that only the three men who had just entered were present.

Their brief conversation forever changed Mike Robinson's life. Initially there were whispers, but eventually one individual--and these people were police or police-related in the officers' rest room--vented some anger through gritted teeth, with appropriate profanity, to make statements that add great credence to the thesis enunciated herein.

As Mike Robinson reconstructs the statements, their order was:

(angrily) "You knew you were supposed to kill Lee," followed by icy silence, then the same voice in the same nasty tone, "then, you stupid son of a bitch, you go kill a cop .... " At this point, another individual entered the room, and the first three fell silent. The newcomer, whom Mike could identify as wearing blue, "did his business, flushed the urinal, and left." The original three then concluded, "Lee will have to be killed before they take him to Washington."

Naturally uncomfortable with what he had heard, Mike remained in his hideout for a decent span of time after the three men left the room, then left. As he passed through the police locker room, one officer, in the process of changing his clothes, stared at Mike, as if to say, "Were you in there when we were?" Having been shown every available photo of officers on the Dallas police force at that time, Mike Robinson believes that the man who stared at him in a menacing way was Roscoe White.

Caveat emptor: Some of the narrative cited above came to light as a result of hypnosis. This is not uncommon police procedure, as witnesses to crimes can often be hypnotized and reveal details--from clothing to license plates--that they seemed totally unaware of in a conscious state. I was hypnotized in 1984 to begin the cure of a phobic concern, and I can personally report the success of the hypnosis. So if one chooses to see Mike as an opportunist, the obvious criticism is that he did not recall the entire story, although to this day, when he sees the ominous photo of Roscoe White in the Dallas Assassination Information Center, he admits that it scares the living hell out of him.

The hypnosis, which I asked a number of skeptical questions about and which will be well covered in Coke Buchanan's writings about Mike, was done by an expert with a Ph.D. in hypnotherapy. It revealed that it was Mike's deep-seated belief that one of the three bathroom individuals had something to do with an "agency." He also believes "100 percent" that Roscoe White killed J. D. Tippit.

I have checked with sources to see if it was in any way possible that Oswald could have been in that bathroom, or if media people had made statements that could have been confused. I was assured that Oswald did "his business" in his cell, or in the third-floor rest room, and that the one place that would have been off-limits to press, and thus private to officers, was the area in question.

** UPDATE **

I promised Mike I would be in contact with him at the time of publication (whenever that was, as it was unclear in November, 1993, although the original completed book had been submitted in August, 1993); so in the summer of 1995, I got in touch with Mike, and he became slightly concerned about the publication. Taking steps to protect himself, he visited the barracks of the "Texas Rangers" (the state police), and gave a statement very similar to that which I described in Treachery in Dallas. He told the officer that he was concerned for his safety once my publication of his observations came to pass. The officer told him, among other things, that not too many people in the Texas law enforcement community believed the "official version" of Oswald alone, although they didn't comment for the record about the possibility of law-enforcement people being involved.

Mike has also been "driven" by something else he saw that day... on several occasions, he saw someone, approximately 17-18 years of age and wearing some kind of uniform--ROTC, Scouts, whatever, being taken around through the third floor, and the story was that this person had been arrested with a weapon on the motorcade route. [There is a record of a "boy scout" with a fake pistol, but that is as far as the record goes.] Yet Mike Robinson recalls the incident vividly, and is convinced there is more to it. He has since visited as many local high schools in the area as possible, and has combed yearbooks from the classes of 1962-1964 to try and get a visual on the person he saw, with no luck.

But he insisted to me, both on the phone and when we met at Dallas COPA '96, (a wonderfully surprising reunion), that if it were possible to find the media coverage of the third floor on Friday, November 22 afternoon, you could see the individual, and more than once, as he was taken right past the camera during his detention.

Mike still stands by the story I added to Treachery in Dallas in 1993 (published 1995), and still has a keen pedestrian interest in the assass

Edited August 26, 2009 by William Kelly

[Steven Gaal]

Dear Bill, This fellow part of swift boat Kerry not a hero crowd.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:av4DWW...=clnk&gl=us

Edited August 26, 2009 by Steven Gaal

[William Kelly]

Dear Bill, This fellow part of swift boat Kerry not a hero crowd.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:av4DWW...=clnk&gl=us

Hi Steve,

I don't have to keep up with Brendan Slattery's nonsense.

If Kerry served in Vietnam and is a veteran he's a hero in my book.

He's just not a good Presidential candidate.

Slattery thinks that we shouldn't talk about Tippit because it would offend the family.

I think the Tippit family, especially the kids growing up today, want the truth, and not the roumors.

And like all Lone Nutters, he comes and throws darts and then leaves as they really can't debate, even though this is called the JFK Assassination Debate.

BK

Edited August 26, 2009 by William Kelly