David Josephs

Glad you got back to that Glenn... if what Monk is saying is even remotely possible, it is indeed mind boggling What makes sense as a possibility to me is a complete, non-telephoto lens film, shot from/by Zapruder's pedestal and then edited within the frame... maybe this process makes the intersprocket area "more" possible... Two films from Zap's location seems to make no sense since if you move the camera closer or father away, there is no way to keep the same angle during the entire panning... the camera would have to move side-to-side pretty significantly for every foor from the original Z location.... Greg, if Zap's film was at 24.3fps (or even slow-mo 40fps) instead and not shot thru a telephoto lens, would alteration of the "original" make more sense to you after what you've seen? Finally, if the 85 feet between cars is right, something is VERY wrong... in the extant Z film the Queen Mary is following behind by about 6-8 feet... the ONLY way Hill makes it to the limo from 85 feet is if the limo virtually stops... and even then at 20mph it takes him 3 seconds to overtake it... Greg - what did you see with regards to Hill chasing the limo? and thanks for the revelation... not sure about others but this is pretty amazing stuff to me...

I've been using your recently posted images yet they still only come down at 72 pixels A shot from the drain MIGHT be somehow reflected in the limo itself, especially at the angle of the camera and such. You will notice the drop to the wheel of the limo from 349-350... suggesting to me what "might" have been seen was made to be out of frame... But I need much better resolution images to even tell DJ If the camera was NOT on telephoto as they claimed... could the alteration zoom to within the frames and create the illusion of a telephoto image thereby allowing for the large chunk of grass during the head shot sequence and then return to "normal" afterward.... always appeared like a bit of Ken Burns the way the camera "pans in" to JFK when in reality the limo was traveling AWAY (slightly southeast) from the camera's position as it passes

You have it backward. Brakes throw people forward (Newton). Gas (acceleration) throws people backward (Newton). Jack Tsk! - too sleepy last night, I guess. Glad I didn't drive. Hi David... may be backward but I believe you have something important... that little fall forward of the occupants of the limo always seemed out of place unless there was severe braking, even at 8mph or so. Go to the stabilized Z film... (I have to believe that at least most of the images in the film, not those of JFK, are a representation of "X" amount of what really happened) but at the 12 second mark just as Kellerman is turning back for the 2nd time, his head goes from bright sunlight to pitch black in 1-2 frames {will post once I can again} and then the limo accelerates away. During the limo stop you would suppose JC and wife would "duck and cover" but the SS ?? It's shameful the way Greer cowers besides Kellerman... One would expect he's be jumping into the back seat to PROTECT someone Concentrating on the SS agents in what is left of this film.. it just makes you want to scream...and then throw up.

Standing on your little soapbox and screaming "A-B-C" when the rest of us are talking about "X-Y-Z" whatever. Craig, you present yourself as an expert with regards to photographic and by inference film/video/digital imagery a TEACHER is not supposed to have a political agenda.. If you are saying that using the Oxberry and the skills available in 63 make it impossible - show us why, if you agree that it was even remotely possible... one would think you, of all people, would be the MOST interested in how "they" did it.... be the most amazing compositie job in history and you don't even want to investigate the possibility? - and this is your livelihood along with JFK your hobby?? WTF are you doing Craig then? disruption just for the sake of it? Then, you skip over all this MATH and only talk about the comparison of what we see in the films to the MATH... and then, out of context? Later, when I found that I had incorrectly applied Hill's differential speed to the entire distance, I corrected myself... but there were still MATHEMATCAL problems... looking at the film only occurs after the MATH... and NOT in determining speed but relative position of the objects by frame and framerate... thanks agian for showing me the errors of my way... you truly are an asset to this forum Peace out DJ My original post: How does Clint Hill catch the limo? At 9.8mph the limo travels 14.4 feet per sec Hill is off at 313 and reaches the limo at 337 = 24 frames 24 frames / 18.3 fps = 1.3 seconds for Hill to reach limo Limo travels 18.85 feet at 9.8 mph in 1.3 seconds Hill is approx 12 feet from limo at 313 which equates to 6 feet from the running board to the front of the Queen Mary plus the 6 feet or so from the QM to the limo... Total run of 30.85 (18.85 + 12) feet to be covered in 1.3 seconds requires Hill to sprint at over 25mph if limo travels at 9.8mph If Hill runs the expected average speed of 11.2 mph the limo must be going 2.5 mph for him to reach it in the 1.3 seconds we see. 18.3 fps 9.8 mph 51744 feet per hour 862.4 fpminute 14.4 fpsecond 313 hill off 337 hill on 24 diff 1.3 seconds for 24 frames 18.85 distance at 9.8 mph 12.00 distance from Hill to Limo at 313 30.85 Total distance to cover 25 Hill's speed 15.2 mph differential 80256 feet per hour 1337.6 fpminute 22.3 fpsecond 1.38 seconds needed to overtake limo If the limo was traveling at 5mph Hill need only run at 16mph to reach the limo... which for a short sprint is possible... it would also result in Hill running at 11mph FASTER than the limo In the Muchmore collage... from z323 to z333 – about 1/2 second – Hill gets from the front of the QM to the rear of the limo... IN WHAT APPEARS AS A SINGLE STEP – Step at 318 - left foot Step at 323 - right foot By 326 he is accelerating away from SS car and towards limo Step at 328 - left foot lands on street – by 329 left foot is planted and right foot is moving forward Between 326 and 329 it appears as if the entire scene in the street has moved west and between 326 and 337 Hill’s left foot has moved considerably down the street – it does not appear as if Muchmore changes her position other than panning left. Step at 333 SHOULD be right foot on the ground yet left foot still on street but seems to have moved from being in front of Jean Hill to being WEST of Moorman Step at 337 is right foot ONTO LIMO – notice how far to the west his left foot has moved... from landing in front of Jean to being noticeably west of Moorman If the limo stopped, then the QM and some of the closer following vehicles would also have had to stop... especially the QM or else it would have hit the limo. After this analysis I feel as if the limo slowed down severely right before 313. The jerkiness of the Nix film thru this sequence is almost absurd and there are definitely frames missing. With many of the other vehicles “stopping” due to the severe slowdown of the limo, the assumption could be easily made that the limo “stopped momentarily” when in reality it was simply inching along. By watching the stabilized Zfilm it is obvious the limo slows considerably just before 310 as we see the motorcycles ride up beside the limo... given the closeness of the QM and cycle escort, there is no reason to assume the QM or cycles would change speeds significantly during the motorcade... especially BOTH cycles as wee see in the Zfilm just before 313. DJ: is this the statement you are hanging your entire rebuttal upon Craig? That we can see something in the film, make an assumption and then go back and check the math... as in, does the limo going at 8/9/10/11.2mph during 301-337 make sense with what Hill accomplishes? and how fast must Hill be going to accomplish this? There is no GUESSING speed by looking at the film So maybe one of our resident experts can explain how this happens and is accomplished on film as well as it jiving with Altgens testimony that from z255 to z313 the limo traveled from a max of 40 feet away to 15 feet away... or moving 25 feet in 58 frames... the limo either has to be going 5mph that entire time or the foreground and background do not match the street scene as we see it in Zapruder.

So who is Mr. D.F. Drittal? The man on the gun order who acted as his character witness? I believe you've written that Drittal is Hidell is Oswald.... but I've seen no evidence that Oswald ever used the Drittal OR Hidell names - and you haven't provided anything to refute that David (and I am not referring to the orders, or the three wallets - confirm the use of Hidell by Oswald anywhere prior to the weapons orders). Only that the writing on the gun order form for Hidel isidentical to Drittal - whoever filled it out also signed as a witness - pretty obvious... {still can't upload images} http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1605

Jack... if the storm drain is even more possible, the "covering up" of the fence area in Cabluck... the obvious alteration... takes on a bit more meaning {I cant upload either... if you look at cabluck, the gray box covering the fence in front of the storm drain "entrance" if you will.. is comical. could be our copies, but Jack has been aware for a while it seems... cheers to you John C, btw... Keep the wind at your back DJ

btw - you're dead on with zapruder... can't even make out his glasses... not in ONE image ...if the angle of the film you saw was "basically" zapruder's, and we know if a camera is not on the same plane the image has to look different, and the vast amount of panning the scene entails, dont we have to conclude THE film was taken on that pedastal from which all films were ultimately made? and you got to see a film much closer in generation to the film made that day, than anyone else... "no matter how paranoid you are, what the government is really doing is much worse than you can imagine"

Thanks Greg... this is facinating... In what you saw, during the limo stop... how much more possible is the storm drain shot... UP doesn't happen when the shooters are above the target, right? There is absolutely no question as to whether or not the limo came to a complete and FULL stop. The car stopped. Completely. No motion whatsoever. The limo remained motionless for approximately 2 seconds. I'm surprised the Queen Mary didn't rear-end it. The head shot most obviously came from the right front. A detail that is missing from the motion of JFK in the extant film has to do with the difference between: "back and to the left" --and--"up, then fall to the left".My recollection is that he was "lifted up" from his seat to a discernible degree before falling to his left. This "body motion" appeared to be much slower than the jerky, abrupt, "snap" seen in the extant film.

The one needing to admit error ( still awaiting your admission on the perspective thing in another thread btw) is you. Your ignorance of something as simple as foreshortening shows the world that you simply have no business commenting on anything photography based. Also my original point was that you CAN'T, with any degree of reliability, GUESS at the speed of the limo because of the varying nature of the pan speed. And rest assure I am FULLY correct that this change in pan speed DOES happen. If you think other wise, then actually PROVE your point instead of waving your hands ( thats what you did with your silliness about frames per second etc.) NONE of that applies to the VISUAL APPEARANCE of speed and the changing rate of the camera pan speed. Your ignorance of all this is amazing. Thats WHY I baited you with the calculated speed. Of course here are no good metrics to do that, again that was my original point that blew right over your head. So lets review again. dAVE can't calculate the speed nor can he see it visually. His work on this and his silly conclusions have been rendered moot..... CL: Also my original point was that you CAN'T, with any degree of reliability, GUESS at the speed of the limo because of the varying nature of the pan speed. Looking at this question we see a classic Specter-ism.. assume something - wrong as it may be - and then build a case around it. I NEVER attempted to guess the speed of the limo using what I saw in the Zfilm, Muchmore or Nix... EVER. What I said was the speed CANNOT BE CALCULATED since we cannot know the distances involved, only the time as represented by the films frame rate. What does that have to do with pan rate? No one cares about the pan rate or the visible appearance of speed... only you.. it has no bearing on this thread at all, the only reason you keep talking pan rates is that you have nothing to say about the subject... "BAITED" ? yeah, you're such an intellectual giant The other part of this thread had to do with determining the speed at which Hill would have to run to cover the distances involved BASED ON THE FRAME COUNT AND FRAME RATE... panning?, we don't need no stinkin' panning... Craig, all you do is argue off topic points and think you are contributing, or annoying, or misdirecting when all you do is show your lack of understanding a topic and your perverse sense of personal accomplishment when we are supposed to be discussing the evidence... One last time, slowly.... in 24 frames at 18.3fps, how fast is the limo going? Don't bother looking at the films, they wont help.

David... Who paid the $1.27 COD charge? $19.95 was only balance due on the gun It's on one of your Michealis Exhibits.... thanks DJ

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html i put this collage together to show the parts of the documents that don't seem to add up... {I can't upload any images - is it just me or the site? "!Error This upload failed"} I also look closely at the date on the order form... does not appear as 1/27 to me but 1/2 and some scribbling but you decide... Just a few questions... 1 - Where are these POBOX notifications you are referring to? The one given to Hidell as the consignee? Dale writes: "Upon arrival at the REA Express office in Dallas, notice was given to the consignee, Hidell. REA Express VP, Robert Hendon testified that in a similar case, "a card was sent to the name and address" on the package. [35] Presumably, a card was sent to Oswald's P.O. Box,..." In reality - if a card existed - it would be sent to HIDELL'S POBox per the shipping instructions... once the PO sees that Hidell is NOT listed to receive mail at this POBox, the rifle and this "card" should have been refused and returned... 2 - The consignee, Hidell, has a COD charge due as well yet only pays $19.95...(Michealis 5) why did they release the package if the consignee did not pay the COD charge? Also on Michealis 4 above the word "COPY" at the bottom right is the space that says, "COD Services charge. Write in YES or NO"... the $1.27 does not appear here either. Did freight companies just STOP collecting their COD charges that day? Dale writes: "The package was shipped C.O.D. to: A.J. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas, with a balance of $19.95 due, plus C.O.D. charges. 3 - the date of the order was either 1/2 or 1/27... why was the order not shipped until March 20th... the SAME DAY C2766 was supposedly shipped? 4 - The gun was shipped to the PO Box, not REA Express. In ALL CASES the delivery address is the Hidell PO Box. Why do you feel as if the gun was to be picked up at REA?? 5 - The reciept says A5371..."Inquiries on this merchandise MUST state this number" is on the top right of Michealis 2... from which document do the other documents get "70688" as the original receipt number - where is this opriginal reciept? Thanks DVP - I look forward to your answers DJ

So what up Mr. L?? Can't see how wrong you are about the "appearance of speed" Can't figure out how fast the limo was going without guessing about distance We can give you as much time as you need... but I expect we wont hear from you on this subject again... but most assuredly you will find some way to attack and confuse in an attempt to mask your lack of knowledge on the issue. So predictable. Sure would be refreshing for you to admit you're wrong here - as you expect everyone else to - and show an ounce of class. But we wont hold our breath.

This is the same Ruth Paine that - copied Lee's letters - was involved in his TSBD employment - was supposed to be learning better Russian while helping Marina with English? - had relations in the CIA - is married to Michael - knows George DeM - and in my opinion could just as easily made the rifle disappear the night before as Lee could have Why then do we forget the next morning's little 2 foot gorcery bag that Oswald supposedly brings to Fazier's car or the 2 foot bag he is NOT seen entering the TSBD with or the theory that since Marina knows exactly where the rifle is supposed to be, why does so do absolutely nothing about it for the hours between learning of the assasination and when Rose arrives? Time machine of not, checking on that blanket would be the FIRST THING SHE DOES if she was actually that tramatize by Lee's use of a rifle The rifle was never there, the photos were never there.... and all one need do is say the name Sibel Edmonds to know everything one need to about the FBI and/or Secret Service and its "translators". the coverup of the medical evidence - after the fact - whether planned or not has little direct bearing on whether Oswald was at the 6th floor shooting C2766. People want to know he did or didn't do it... if he didn't, I can't believe that proving he was on the bus or not, or whether there was "surgery to the top of the head" or not will do the trick. How about - "He was witnessed in the 2nd floor lunchroom as late as 12:25 when from 12:15 thru the shots being fired witnesses placed multiple men with multiple rifles on the 6th floor at the east and west windows... here are their photographs within 60-75 seconds after the shots are fired Baker runs into Oswald - WHERE? - the 2nd floor lunchroom. Oswlad did not carry a rifle to work that day, was not seen bringing a rifle into the building that morning, his fingerprints are not on any of the sniper's nest boxes, his fingerprints are not on the rifle, hulls or clip. He was next seen at home just before 1pm and again entering the Texas Theater at 1:05pm. Tippit was killed at 1:12 at the earliest. Oswald is completely innocent and always has been" He was just a Patsy

And why, if it says that the consignee will pay the COD charges, is Mr. Hidell able to only pay the $19.95... and still get his handgun? Michealis Ex 5 (can't upload right now for some reason) Furthermore... is there any other evidence about when these items might have arrived and when they were picked up? 3/20/63 was a Wednesday... did they arrive together? picked up together? This piece of the story just gets more interesting every day... thanks Gil

Gil - could one of the reasons these items are not available is that they were used/siezed as part of Dodd's investigation? Or they were conveniently "lost" since someone else must have picked up the rifle? I've read about this before and will search the forum for more info... how realistic is Oswald working via the FBI on this type of investigation? DJ Dodd was elected as a Democrat to the House of Representatives in 1952, and served two terms. He lost a Senate election in 1956 to Prescott S. Bush, but was elected in 1958 to Connecticut's other Senate seat and then re-elected in 1964. Before becoming a U.S. senator, Dodd was hired to lobby for Guatemala in the United States for $50,000 a year by dictator Carlos Castillo Armas.[16] According to the North American Congress on Latin America, Dodd "had perhaps the coziest relationship with the Castillo Armas government."[17] After a short trip to Guatemala in 1955, Dodd urged the House of Representatives to increase aid to the Central American country. Dodd's amendment passed and Guatemala received $15 million of US aid in 1956.[18] In 1961, Dodd visited the Congo to investigate the civil war caused by the secession of the province of Katanga. In his memoirs, the United Nations Representative in the Congo, Brian Urquhart, described Dodd as a "vain and silly man" who "knew nothing of Africa."[19] As chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, Dodd worked to restrict the purchase of mail order handguns, and later shotguns and rifles. These efforts culminated in the Gun Control Act of 1968, which Dodd introduced.[20] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Dodd http://www.famoustexans.com/leeharveyoswald.htm "In 1963, as head of the Senate's Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee, Senator Thomas Dodd of Connecticut was experimenting with ordering arms from mail order houses in an attempt to gather information allowing Congress to stem unregulated traffic. Senator Dodd instituted the program on behalf of Colt and other small firearms producers in Connecticut who complained of foreign imports. Oswald might have participated in this program. Dodd, a former FBI agent and long-time J. Edgar Hoover loyalist, was also a leading member of the Cuba Lobby (which grew out of the right-wing, red-hunting, China Lobby) through which he was in touch with some of the same Cuban-exile mercenaries as Oswald. He was also investigating the FPCC in which Oswald may have been an infiltrator. According to a standard textbook by criminologist Charles O'Hara, we can see how Oswald, working in a legitimate undercover capacity for Dodd, could have easily been manipulated into simultaneous conspiracies involving a Mannlicher-Carcano." link Far-fetched you say? Read on. "Two of the gun mail-order houses Dodd's subcommittee was investigating were the ones from which Oswald allegedly ordered his Smith and Wesson .38 revolver (Seaport Traders of Los Angeles) and his Mannlicher-Carcano carbine (Klein's of Chicago). Oswald ordered his pistol two days before Dodd's subcommittee began hearings on the matter on January 29, 1963. The subcommittee's sample statistics later showed a purchase in Texas made from Seaport Traders. One of the groups being investigated for firearm purchases was one whose members Oswald had in his address book, the American Nazi Party. One of the investigators looking into interstate firearms sales at this time was Manuel Pena, the Los Angeles police lieutenant who was later one of the pivotal officers investigating Robert Kennedy's assassination. It was Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop. And one of the primary culprits, robbing domestic manufacturers of profits, was the Mannlicher-Carcano. On the day Kennedy was assassinated, Dodd considered the tragedy a personal victory, bragging about his friendship with the "new" administration, grieving only over 'the damage he [Kennedy] did to us in three years.' " (same source as above. See"link".) Thomas Dodd was censored by the Senate in 1967. Thomas was caught embezzeling campaign money.

Lets review shall we... dAVE waves his hands wildly, "plugging" away and then proclaims things don't add up BECAUSE he does not think he "sees" the speed of the limo in the Zapruder film. I point out the weakness of his visual references in the Z film and that the "appearance" of speed is skewed by the increasing and decreasing rates of pan as the lime transverses the z field of view. I also suggest that dAVE, might what to consider doing some calculations instead waving his hands since he claims math is one of his strengths. True to form dAVE says....NO...YOU! Is that your admission dAVE, that you CAN'T calculate the speed? Instead you now want ME to do the work YOU should be doing? WHY? I've no real interest in this handwaving exercise. I simply gave a photographic point of reference. Freaking amazing dAVE. Besides I suck at math.... Craig, All your BS about panning and your “visual references” is just that - BS... the “appearance of speed”?? You’ve lost your mind. A car traveling at 10 mph will cover X amount of ground in X amount of time whether it's filmed or not, whether it is going at the camera, at an angle, or away from the camera... X number of frames at an agreed upon frame rate in X amount of time results in a speed... if the last car in the motorcade – which we cannot see – was going 10mph I can tell you the distance in the amount of time based on the number of frames being analyzed... from 313 to 337, 1.31 seconds at 10mph THAT car traveled 19.2 feet - even you should understand that. So you tell me Craig... from 300 to 337 is 37 frames at 18.3 fps equals 2.022 seconds. CALCULATE how fast is the limo going - show us how the great and might Lamson detemines DISTANCE How about an easier one... the limo leaves Love Field and travels for 11 seconds (or what would be 201 frames at 18.3fps) Please show us how you would CALCULATE the limo's speed Now a little tougher one - you up to it? From frame 100 to 200 is 100 frames at 18.3fps is 5.464 seconds There is a visible splice at 132 There is a visible splice at 154 How fast was the limo traveling from frame 100 to frame 200? I've already explained why it can't be done... but you know better - so show us. Put up or shut up already Craig... Use a calculator if you can't do the math... in fact don't even do the math - just explain how you would even begin to CALCULATE an answer given the available information...

How do you judge speed of the limo in he Zapruder film visually? The best you have for a visual metric is the passing of the background. Problem is photo 101 tells us that the visual blurring of the background is effected more by the actual rate of camera pan than the limo speed. I am "guessing" at the speed of the limo in relation to the distance Hill has to cover and the time it takes for him to overtake the limo in the 3 films in which we see him do so. The faster Hill runs, the greater the speed difference between him and the limo... conversely, the slower the limo - the faster he arrives... the supposition, the HYPOTHESIS is that frames were removed to hide a limo stop or severe slow down as well as the headshot being some 30 feet west. Makes sense to me that Hill moving from one vehicle to the other during this crucial time is important. Some have siad he had to leave as early as 285... we don't see him till well after that IN ANY FILM... is the slowdown from 285 thru 310 or so, when we finally see Hill? or during his run? Frame 337 is important as its those 24 frames the MATH threads keep coming back to... Is Hill jumping on a fairly stationary limo at 337? This is what I'm trying to prove... Interestingly, given the way the limo transverses the scene, the camera panning rate play visual tricks. As the limo is filmed near Houston and at the other end near the overpass the actual rate of camera pan is slowed, making the car appear to be going slower than actual speed. Starting from Houston for example the camera panning rare gradually increases until it hits its peak speed right about the 300 frame mark give or take. So even IF the limo were slowing rapidly at this point, the visual clues as to it actual speed...the amount of blur in the background, is being skewed to look faster than reality by the increased rate of camera pan. So in other words, just looking at the film and guessing a the limo speed is a fools errand. Guessing at the limo speed by plugging ANY REALISTIC speed into my calculations gives me the time needed for Hill to cover the distance... the number of frames per second equates to a distance at a certain mph regardless of pan rate or vehicle direction... if the limo was traveling 7.8 mph or 11.4feet per sec, in 24 frames or 1.35 seconds at 18.3 fps, we have a total of 15 feet... plus the 12-14 feet between Hill and the limo and hill must cover a total of 27-29 feet - to do this he must be running at 21+ mph DURING that period.... only the fastest sprinters in the world can do this, yet a SS agent in great shape and at his age... the time difference would not be much... Hill could easily sustain 16-18mph for those 2 seconds... Yet as we can see, if the limo slows to about 5mph the transition works almost perfectly in terms of times, frames and speed.. so either the limo slowed quickly to much less than already agreed upon, or some frames have been removed to make it appear the limo and QM were traveling faster than they were... 18.3 fps 5.1 mph - estimated limo speed 26928 feet per hour 448.8 fpminute 7.5 fpsecond 313 hill running full speed 337 hill touches back of limo 24 diff in frames 1.31 seconds for diff in frames 9.81 distance at 5.1 mph 13.00 distance from Hill to Limo at frame 313 22.81 Total distance to cover Hill's speed 17 11.9 mph differential 62832 feet per hour 89760 1047.2 fpminute 1496 17.5 fpsecond 24.9 1.31 seconds needed to overtake limo The thing about this Craig, is that it only takes very slight changes in these speeds to accound for frames to have been tampered with... I am not saying there is proof here... just that with your scrutiny, if there is something to be discovered during this crutial sequence of frames - you can either help explain it, or help us understand how it might have been accomplished. When so many witnesses experience an event - the limo stopping or slowing severely - and it's NOT on the films... "something" is up... can we at least agree there? and from what I've been reading, the sheer degredation of quality of the images you and I get to examine is beyond pitiful... that in itself is the cause of so much disagrement. Reading the accounts of those who have at least seen the original "forgeries" or original "realities" should be our BEST EVIDENCE until one can look for oneself... no? I would think you, above all others, YOU would be outraged at splices in the extant versions of the z film (157, 207 at least), and in the extant version of the Muchmore and Nix films. The unreality of the geometry we see in the full-flush left images in the Z film and the strageness of anomolies in the films just before these splices occur, in every case... see what occurs prior to each "splice" in the stabilized Zfilm... but just flush left, intersproket... Of course please don't take my word for it, go out and try the panning for yourself..... I take your word Craig... you got the whole panning thing down, I'm sure. So if you had to remove a limo stop knowing what you know about Oxberry printers etc... how would you do it, and how would that compare to what a Hollywood special effects technician of that era could do? When people tend to run off on a tangent in their posts it is mostly useless to attempt to listen to anything he might have to say. It renders this "information" such as it is nearly useless. So dave, you claim you love maths so much, instead of GUESSING about anything or just "plugging in" stuff, why don't you CALCULATE it. Full flush left? Sheesh that dog got killed long ago. Amomolies? Oh please. Splices? Amazing that happens at places where repeated playback might happen. Sorry dave like all the rest you are just one more who does not have a clue. BTW? There is a small problems with just "removing a few frames" ... ghost images. Chew on that one for awhile, and then join the rest of the ztoon crown dave. Then show us how you can CALCULATE the speed Craig... Frame 313 to 337 takes 24 frames at 18.3 fps or 1.311 seconds based on those # of frames and that agreed upon frame-rate... What is the DISTANCE in feet between 313 and 337 and how do you determine this? If you take the word of the WC related to the Zfilm, the limo was traveling at 11.2 mph while others claim it had slowed to less than 8mph in and around this time. At 11.2 mph for 1.311 seconds the limo travels 21.5 feet between 313 and 337 If, on the other hand, the limo was traveling at 8 mph, the distance between 313 and 337 is 15.4 feet... So Craig, is the distance from point A to point B: 21.5 or 15.4 feet? Please show us... CALCULATE the speed of the limo

No fears... FEMA's here.

David, that's the point. I can't tell. Can anyone? Maybe. I am not convinced Oswald used the "HIdell" name at all - ever. If that is true, then the "Hidell" signature's may well be in Oswald's hand - but made up of individual letters from his writings put together to form the needed words. I assume this would necessitate copies of copies of copies. Is it possible to detect copies that are more than one generation removed from the Original? ... at this point does it really matter? Let's say Oswald did indeed initiate this order... that there was a rifle in his posession - even though the shipping address did not exist.. nor was the Money Order actually cashed... nor was it processed to the correct final location, being found 15 miles form Langley in Alexandria, VA.. let's even say that rifle of his was in the Paine's garage... thursday eve but gone friday morn... the one in the TSBD SHOULD be the same one he ordered... it's not. So the one in the Paine garage was made to disappear... wasn't Ruth the last person in the garage that night... turning off the light she assume Lee left on? just saying... Could Oswald been told to use Hidell as an alias to test the delivery process of rifles to PO Boxes... did I dream this or wasn't that actually going on at the time? My goodness, it's as if one has a hard time believing that this event and the history behind it could not be orchestrated... as if so much of what transpires every day is not part of some scheme, some plan for one group to gain advantage over another with far reaching consequences... how wonderful to be so blissfully ignorant of that possible reality... Taking a needed break... sacramento river is at peak levels... I live right by the levee... and when the levee breaks...

I know we are looking at an image of an image, etc... just that certain things are consistent and other's aren't... as I try to show earlier in the thread... another stikes me... the "amount" of $21.45, especially the "21" is stamped very hard, as hard if not harder than the other numbers, just below that are seen on the backside. Is there any significance to changing the amount, or why this would not be seen?

How do you judge speed of the limo in he Zapruder film visually? The best you have for a visual metric is the passing of the background. Problem is photo 101 tells us that the visual blurring of the background is effected more by the actual rate of camera pan than the limo speed. I am "guessing" at the speed of the limo in relation to the distance Hill has to cover and the time it takes for him to overtake the limo in the 3 films in which we see him do so. The faster Hill runs, the greater the speed difference between him and the limo... conversely, the slower the limo - the faster he arrives... the supposition, the HYPOTHESIS is that frames were removed to hide a limo stop or severe slow down as well as the headshot being some 30 feet west. Makes sense to me that Hill moving from one vehicle to the other during this crucial time is important. Some have siad he had to leave as early as 285... we don't see him till well after that IN ANY FILM... is the slowdown from 285 thru 310 or so, when we finally see Hill? or during his run? Frame 337 is important as its those 24 frames the MATH threads keep coming back to... Is Hill jumping on a fairly stationary limo at 337? This is what I'm trying to prove... Interestingly, given the way the limo transverses the scene, the camera panning rate play visual tricks. As the limo is filmed near Houston and at the other end near the overpass the actual rate of camera pan is slowed, making the car appear to be going slower than actual speed. Starting from Houston for example the camera panning rare gradually increases until it hits its peak speed right about the 300 frame mark give or take. So even IF the limo were slowing rapidly at this point, the visual clues as to it actual speed...the amount of blur in the background, is being skewed to look faster than reality by the increased rate of camera pan. So in other words, just looking at the film and guessing a the limo speed is a fools errand. Guessing at the limo speed by plugging ANY REALISTIC speed into my calculations gives me the time needed for Hill to cover the distance... the number of frames per second equates to a distance at a certain mph regardless of pan rate or vehicle direction... if the limo was traveling 7.8 mph or 11.4feet per sec, in 24 frames or 1.35 seconds at 18.3 fps, we have a total of 15 feet... plus the 12-14 feet between Hill and the limo and hill must cover a total of 27-29 feet - to do this he must be running at 21+ mph DURING that period.... only the fastest sprinters in the world can do this, yet a SS agent in great shape and at his age... the time difference would not be much... Hill could easily sustain 16-18mph for those 2 seconds... Yet as we can see, if the limo slows to about 5mph the transition works almost perfectly in terms of times, frames and speed.. so either the limo slowed quickly to much less than already agreed upon, or some frames have been removed to make it appear the limo and QM were traveling faster than they were... 18.3 fps 5.1 mph - estimated limo speed 26928 feet per hour 448.8 fpminute 7.5 fpsecond 313 hill running full speed 337 hill touches back of limo 24 diff in frames 1.31 seconds for diff in frames 9.81 distance at 5.1 mph 13.00 distance from Hill to Limo at frame 313 22.81 Total distance to cover Hill's speed 17 11.9 mph differential 62832 feet per hour 89760 1047.2 fpminute 1496 17.5 fpsecond 24.9 1.31 seconds needed to overtake limo The thing about this Craig, is that it only takes very slight changes in these speeds to accound for frames to have been tampered with... I am not saying there is proof here... just that with your scrutiny, if there is something to be discovered during this crutial sequence of frames - you can either help explain it, or help us understand how it might have been accomplished. When so many witnesses experience an event - the limo stopping or slowing severely - and it's NOT on the films... "something" is up... can we at least agree there? and from what I've been reading, the sheer degredation of quality of the images you and I get to examine is beyond pitiful... that in itself is the cause of so much disagrement. Reading the accounts of those who have at least seen the original "forgeries" or original "realities" should be our BEST EVIDENCE until one can look for oneself... no? I would think you, above all others, YOU would be outraged at splices in the extant versions of the z film (157, 207 at least), and in the extant version of the Muchmore and Nix films. The unreality of the geometry we see in the full-flush left images in the Z film and the strageness of anomolies in the films just before these splices occur, in every case... see what occurs prior to each "splice" in the stabilized Zfilm... but just flush left, intersproket... Of course please don't take my word for it, go out and try the panning for yourself..... I take your word Craig... you got the whole panning thing down, I'm sure. So if you had to remove a limo stop knowing what you know about Oxberry printers etc... how would you do it, and how would that compare to what a Hollywood special effects technician of that era could do?

Hey Greg... Found a few things in my files... at least its a start... but as Gil points out... copy of a copy of a copy ...... anything could have happened along the way DJ

You make a good point Ian.... We should assume that Hill needed a few steps whenever he jumped off to reach speed... meanwhile the limo and QM move away from him ever so slightly... Makes the 12-14 feet more like 14-18 feet... not much difference... but every fraction of a second is a few frames... As we look at Hill running behind Mary/Jean, I think that would have been the most opportune area to remove frames... which makes sense given the left foot at 337 without the right foot in between 329 and 337.... that step seems to me as partially removed... that and the limo slowed to less than 5mph, imo, and visibly hesitated making it appear that it stopped to many Just my opinion at this point yet Hill's ability to reach that limo so quickly suggests it was going much slower than it appears to be in Zapruder. DJ

The jetliner analogy is apples and oranges Jack... Relative to the ground when you walk forward in the airplane you are going 301 mph, just not relative to others in the plane. Same thing with the QM... relative to the ground Hill is moving at 9 mph and if he can jump of and maintain his motion he has effectively cutout the 0-9 mph acceleration, once he lets go... he either continues at 9mph, slows or accelerates. But a good point was raised on Duncan's forum thread regarding this.... relative to each other, as you say Jack, the limo and QM are going virtually the same speed. And since the QM does not ride up the limo's rear, it too must have slowed to less than 9mph from 301 thru 335 or so... some indications are as slow as 7.8mph now WHY the limo would slow as it travels THRU DP heading towards the freeway, with no one in front of them... is THE real mystery In any case... If Hill jumps off an is instantly running at the same speed as the limo, he would never catch the limo which was about 12-14 feet from him as he rode on the QM's running board As my math tried to show, the time it takes for him to catch the limo from 312 thru 337 is just under 1.35 seconds at 18.3fps. now how much faster must Hill be running than the 8mph limo to make up 12-14 feet in 1.35 seconds? He has to run at least 13mph FASTER than the limo or 21mph for that short sprint. If he leaves earlier, say 301, he has 2 whole seconds of frame time - 36 frames - yet still only has to make up the total of 12-14 feet. My calculations above add back the total distance the limo travels as the amount of ground he has to cover - which he does - yet since he is already moving at the speed of the limo or better, the limo never gets more than 12-14 feet from Hill... so by adding in the total distance travled - I was wrong. While his running and the left-right-left of his legs seems a bit suspect as one watches it... I do not see how much more than a few random frames could be removed to make it appear the limo did not slow as much as it really did... I dont believe Hill could run as fast or faster than world class sprinters... but the distance is so small he could reach speeds into the high teens, and if the limo slowed more severely - which sounds possible from eye witness testimony - than overtaking it as quick as he did is more than possible. In my 1st example above we see that Hill is gaining on the limo at the rate of 6.2 feet per second (he runs 14 while the limo stays at 9.8) so the 12 feet is covered easily in 2 seconds. He's running at about 20 feet per second and covers the 40+ feet total distance in the same time... just the limo is only going 14.4 feet per second... So if Chris could oblige.... what does your MATH ultimately look like within the major films? There are splices in Nix, Zap, Muchmore and Towner... if he was shot 30 feet further west - why/how do these films put him elsewhere.. is it really all about where they start, stop, how much is spliced and where they were spliced? thanks DJ

Thank you Evan... as much as I enjoy attempts at moon landing fakery proof, your pix are worth thousands of words. Be nice if those who wish others to admit their mistakes or oversights were as vocal with their own. I've not seen these images in rebuttal... Mr. White, where is Evan wrong?