David Josephs

thanks Duncan... I still am having a problem with the extra step... When Hill takes his first LARGE step with his left leg he lands with it in front of Jean (z326-329) It takes from 323 to 329 to plant his left leg/foot (6 frames) By 337 his left foot is once again firmly planted on the ground (6 frames) Where does the right foot step occur between 329 and 337 and with his left leg planted at 329... it seems to take about 6 frames per step yet Hill is back on his left leg as he emerges from behind Moorman and is reaching for the limo. Is that your take or can you squeeze in another right leg step in there somewhere?

How does Clint Hill catch the limo? At 9.8mph the limo travels 14.4 feet per sec Hill is off at 313 and reaches the limo at 337 = 24 frames 24 frames / 18.3 fps = 1.3 seconds for Hill to reach limo Limo travels 18.85 feet at 9.8 mph in 1.3 seconds Hill is approx 12 feet from limo at 313 which equates to 6 feet from the running board to the front of the Queen Mary plus the 6 feet or so from the QM to the limo... Total run of 30.85 (18.85 + 12) feet to be covered in 1.3 seconds requires Hill to sprint at over 25mph if limo travels at 9.8mph If Hill runs the expected average speed of 11.2 mph the limo must be going 2.5 mph for him to reach it in the 1.3 seconds we see. 18.3 fps 9.8 mph 51744 feet per hour 862.4 fpminute 14.4 fpsecond 313 hill off 337 hill on 24 diff 1.3 seconds for 24 frames 18.85 distance at 9.8 mph 12.00 distance from Hill to Limo at 313 30.85 Total distance to cover 25 Hill's speed 15.2 mph differential 80256 feet per hour 1337.6 fpminute 22.3 fpsecond 1.38 seconds needed to overtake limo If the limo was traveling at 5mph Hill need only run at 16mph to reach the limo... which for a short sprint is possible... it would also result in Hill running at 11mph FASTER than the limo In the Muchmore collage... from z323 to z333 – about 1/2 second – Hill gets from the front of the QM to the rear of the limo... IN WHAT APPEARS AS A SINGLE STEP – Step at 318 - left foot Step at 323 - right foot By 326 he is accelerating away from SS car and towards limo Step at 328 - left foot lands on street – by 329 left foot is planted and right foot is moving forward Between 326 and 329 it appears as if the entire scene in the street has moved west and between 326 and 337 Hill’s left foot has moved considerably down the street – it does not appear as if Muchmore changes her position other than panning left. Step at 333 SHOULD be right foot on the ground yet left foot still on street but seems to have moved from being in front of Jean Hill to being WEST of Moorman Step at 337 is right foot ONTO LIMO – notice how far to the west his left foot has moved... from landing in front of Jean to being noticeably west of Moorman If the limo stopped, then the QM and some of the closer following vehicles would also have had to stop... especially the QM or else it would have hit the limo. After this analysis I feel as if the limo slowed down severely right before 313. The jerkiness of the Nix film thru this sequence is almost absurd and there are definitely frames missing. With many of the other vehicles “stopping” due to the severe slowdown of the limo, the assumption could be easily made that the limo “stopped momentarily” when in reality it was simply inching along. By watching the stabilized Zfilm it is obvious the limo slows considerably just before 310 as we see the motorcycles ride up beside the limo... given the closeness of the QM and cycle escort, there is no reason to assume the QM or cycles would change speeds significantly during the motorcade... especially BOTH cycles as wee see in the Zfilm just before 313. So maybe one of our resident experts can explain how this happens and is accomplished on film as well as it jiving with Altgens testimony that from z255 to z313 the limo traveled from a max of 40 feet away to 15 feet away... or moving 25 feet in 58 frames... the limo either has to be going 5mph that entire time or the foreground and background do not match the street scene as we see it in Zapruder.

My pleasure Bernice.... Sure does seem that anger over god-knows-what interferes with each and every thread... What I am seeing is that ignoring those who cannot post without insults, accusations or personal attacks - works. If someone cannot post a reply using whatever logic they feel appropriate, without the insults, then why should they be acknowledged? Attempting to correct or enlighten someone needn't be adversarial, and it's really quite sad as some of the most knowledgeable posters wrap their information in such BS as to render it useless DJ

Hi Kathy... Not sure why some have to be so hostile... there are other forums for sure yet with Jack here, usually, this is where it would get the most notice and response... http://www.crystalinks.com/vanallenbelt.html The Van Allen Belt's Impact on Space Travel Solar cells, integrated circuits, and sensors can be damaged by radiation. In 1962, the Van Allen belts were temporarily amplified by a high-altitude nuclear explosion (the Starfish Prime test) and several satellites ceased operation. Magnetic storms occasionally damage electronic components on spacecraft. Miniaturization and digitization of electronics and logic circuits have made satellites more vulnerable to radiation, as incoming ions may be as large as the circuit's charge. Electronics on satellites must be hardened against radiation to operate reliably. The Hubble Space Telescope, among other satellites, often has its sensors turned off when passing through regions of intense radiation. An object satellite shielded by 3 mm of aluminum will receive about 2500 rem (25 Sv) per year. Proponents of the Apollo Moon Landing Hoax have argued that space travel to the moon is impossible because the Van Allen radiation would kill or incapacitate an astronaut who made the trip. Van Allen himself, still alive and living in Iowa City, has dismissed these ideas. In practice, Apollo astronauts who travelled to the moon spent very little time in the belts and received a harmless dose. Nevertheless NASA deliberately timed Apollo launches, and used lunar transfer orbits that only skirted the edge of the belt over the equator to minimise the radiation. Astronauts who visited the moon probably have a slightly higher risk of cancer during their lifetimes, but still remain unlikely to become ill because of it. "Gravity is the force that causes two particles to pull towards each other" As long as there is mass, there is gravity... the moon being smaller has less gravity as mass has a direct relationship to gravitational pull. http://www.squidoo.com/apollo-moon-landing-photos-from-space Now some may say these too are faked.... Leaving garbage around the universe is completely American ... n o surprise we left ours on the moon as well.

Again, thanks John... The bodies don't move very much at all, you are correct... yet there is movement and it does appear random I hope we agree that it does not appear we are looking at a static image - just one with very little movement I'd venture to say that there was not much movement along Houston either as the limo passed... some clapping, slight head movements and little else... so I was never really sure what you were trying to reinterate when you mention these people hardly moving... I had another question about the film as well... when you can get to it... please excuse me if we've been over this before... there is a periodic flash of a white identification type stripe along the left side of the film... How is it that the intersprocket image can be seen either behind or on top of this white area? Wouldn't that ID stamped into the white area preclude an image from being seen there? thanks DJ

Indeed that does John, thanks... Is that also why we have such a difference between the BLACK bordered frames and the BLUE where the image in the upper and lower sprocket areas is triangular rather than full flush left? One other question/comment... in one of your presentations you repeatedly mention the bystanders not moving or reacting to the limo as it passes Frames 133-220 - do you still feel the same way about that? After I stabilized the sequence there are a number of "changes" that occur including clapping, head movements, leg movements that seem perfectly consistent - I am not saying that these people could not have been made into a matte that allowed the limo to be put in the correct positions as it needed to be... but I got the impression from your presentation that you assumed they were a static image... Thanks so much for your work on these frames and your assistance to us struggling part-time researchers... Finally, the idea of manipulating the original into an acceptable copy via addition/deletion of frames and matte processes before it goes to LIFE saturday - with the 3 copies made at NPIC - and the mathematics of the frames as proved by Chris' MATH threads - seems the most plausible of scenarios. So not so much a second film as much as the original made into what it needed to be. Thoughts? DJ

As I look thru each and every frame of the Z film I see the black lines that separates the intersprocket images from the "above and below the sprocket hole" images... These "holes" are the sprocket holes themselves and should not contain any photographic information - they're holes, right? So why do these black separation lines change size as well as appear to extend INTO the sprocket holes... this shouldn't be, should it? DJ

I'd like to remain on the question of what the FBI agents experience between 7:17 and 8pm. According to their info the body gets to the morgue at 7:17 WITH THEIR HELP yet they do not say anything about the body leaving and re-entering at 8pm, do they? DSL: 6:35 PM: The original arrival of the body, in a shipping casket--an event that occurred prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance, with the Dallas casket, which occurred at 6:55 pm (approx). The time 6:35 is cited in the Boyajian report. 7:17: PM The arrival (at the morgue) of the Dallas casket (which was empty); that time is provided by FBI Agents Sibert and O'Neill, when they were interviewed by WC atty Specter, in March, 1964. 8:00 PM The official “delivery” of the Dallas casket, now containing the body. That time is cited as the official morgue entry time in the report of the MDW tri-service casket team. (And yes, based on my interviews, one or more of them actually witnessed the body of JFK being taken out of the Dallas casket after that 8 P.M. entry). and The FBI agents, who did not “lose” the ceremonial casket (that is, they did not "lose" the naval ambulance which contained that casket) brought it the morgue area, were kept out for a few minutes (to prevent them from learning that the body was there, before they were), then entered the morgue, and then witnessed the body being put on the table. That time—according to their interview with Specter—was 7:17 PM. So that is when they first “see” the doctor dealing with the body: 7:17 pm. And that is when Dr. Humes stated, in front of the two agents, that it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull." Anyway, that occurred at just a few minutes past 7:17 PM. Not 8pm. Then, within minutes of 7:17 pm, they were cleared out of the room, supposedly for X-rays. (This is all spelled out both in the Sibert and O'Neill report, and in their ARRB testimony. See Chapter 28, Best Evidence, for details.) But during that period—i.e., after the room was cleared (supposedly for X-rays)-- the body (which had been there since around 6:35 PM) was then returned to the big Dallas casket, that casket was brought outside, and then the casket team, which had been running around looking for the ambulance with that casket (again, see my account quoting Barnum's report) suddenly “found” it, and brought it in at 8 pm. (Again, see their report, for the time: i.e., "8 P.M." is the official "morgue entry time," per the MDW report). So David... the FBI agents simply waited around outside the morgue and did not experience the "back out to the hearse and in with the MDW" around 8pm? and then were let back in to view the rest of the autopsy? How did they miss the ceremonial transfer by the MDW? thanks DJ

Gil - first off thanks for all your effort in bringing this to our attention and for creating such compelling arguments. 2nd - DVP is no bully... just one of the bewildered who enjoys drinking from the government's disinformation trough while regurgitating the same to more of the bewildered herd.... those of us who have lifted our heads out of that trough know better, much better. I think I posted once before: - those who stop at DVP's explanation are hardly worth the time to RE-educate and get them to accept a premise they never will & - those who don't, see him for who and what he is... and laugh accordingly. Between Greg's question about how many times Oswald used Hidell... and mine about whether an innocent government conducts an investigation into a president's murder in the manner that we see from the Johnson Administration... DVP will be kept busy in his attempt to misdirect At some point, the boy who cries wolf is no longer worthy of any attention.

Are we making the assumption that "buying the MO" and "mailing the envelope" would occur at the same visit? That Oswald has the coupon, buys the USPS Money Order, Buys a Air Mail stamp, and mails it when he's there? What bothers me again is the anomolie of the postmark on this envelope... The time portion looks like no other postmark unless the "AM" just did not show up. It appears to say 10:30... and for this to get to Kleins for deposit the next day, "AM" would make sense. I am unaware of the exact process at this time... do the stamps change from AM to PM or does the date just change? Does this 10:30 time have any bearing on the timeline for buying the MO and then mailing this envelope? and finally, in every example of postmarks I could find http://www.postalhistory.com/index.htm the stamp is easily identified.. A close zoom of the stamp on this envelope reveals nothing... literally nothing... maybe a better copy? Just seems strange again that we'd not be able to see this stamp.

I’d also like to get back to the MO... There are some strange details I’d like to focus attention on: As you can see, much of what is written on the back or front can be seen on the opposite side... (I reversed the back so the writing from the front is not a mirror image) We can see the “THIRTY”, the PAY TO and FROM fields, even a perfect bleed thru of the MAR 12 1963 Stamp. What we DON’T see are some things we should... The amount, which is stamped into the MO at the time of purchase does not bleed thru while the “138 4159796” can be seen... why can't we see the amount or at least an indication that the "2 & 1" are so much darker than the ".45" The stains are virtually identical on either side of the MO There seems to be a darker area, almost a perfect rectangle, that covers ALL the entered information - another MO for comparison sure wouldbe helpful. And then there is that extra DALLAS Stamp in the bottom right corner These are just observations – I’m interested in your comments as to their significance if any.. Thanks DJ

I've always found it interesting that we seem to forget to look at the things, as DL says, "Hidden in plain sight" Is it a correct assumption that this Klein order was typed up all at the same time? Is there any reason the typing of A. Hidell and the address is on a DIFFERENT typewriter than the rest of the order? Or why Hidell looks more like Midell? Or why the rifle specific data and the totaling is handwritten as opposed to the rest of the order? or what the date Mar-13-63 is doing stamped at the top... does it usually take 7 days to fill an order? "pp" = postage paid?

David: Your post creates some confusion by not being specific; in addition, it contains a serious misstatement of fact. First of all, the 6:05 PM casket arrival is not a good title. Because the arrival you are apparently intending to discuss is not at the hospital, but at Andrews Air Force Basei.e., your post begins by talking about the arrival time of Air Force One which is best described as approximately 6 p.m. EST At Andrews, and immediateley after the 6 PM "arrival," the Dallas casket was offloaded and carried to the naval ambulance---a scene broadcast on national TVand the ambulance pulled away at 6:10 PM EST. That casket, based on the rest of the data (as spelled out in Best Evidence) must have been empty. which means then that the body was already on its way, in the metal shipping casket, offloaded from the right front of the plane and either driven or flown to Bethesda... I am not sure whether BE states that JFK was already on his way via AF-2 or some other earlier switch but I seem to remember your position was JFK was on AF-1 and in the metal casket elsewhere on the plane. To tell the rest of the story, one should cite the primary source materials, not the Miller (summary) report written days later. The two key documents are the report of Lt. Sam Bird, of the Joint Casket Bearer Team (which is MD 236 in the Doug Horne document set at the ARRB); and the Boyajian report (MD-163), written by Sgt. Roger Boyajian, the NCOIC (non-commissioned officer in charge) of the Marine Security Detail. The MDW casket team, which was prevented from doing its job properly at AF-1, then took a helicopter to Bethesda Naval Hospital. They landed at 6:45 PM.; and were there, located near the front of the hospital, when the naval ambulance arrived at 6:53 PM (per the SS reports) or 6:55 PM (per the wire service reports). Note: the naval ambulance arrived some 20 minutes AFTER the shipping casket with the President's body was delivered, at 6:35 PM (per the Boyajian report, corroborated by Dennis David, and Paul O'Connor). So that is one single event--the delivery of the shipping casket at 6:35 PM, witnessed by Dennis David, outside the room, and Paul O'Connor, inside the room, with the time being documented by the Boyajian report. If you now go to Chapter 16 of Best Evidence, you will find a complete account of what happened, with regards to that casket team, after the naval ambulance, with the Dallas casket, arrived at the Bethesda front entrance. That account is based on detailed interviews I conducted in 1967-68, and additional information ascertained around 1979. Of particular importance is the detailed written account of Coastguardsman George Barnum, written on November 29, 1963. This account, written just a week after the assassination, records the details of how they were deceived--and sent on one wild goose chase after another, looking for "the ambulance." The bottom line: those fellows who witnessed the arrival of the naval ambulance at 6:55 PMwere decoyd and did not bring the ceremonial casket into the hospital until 8 pm. (the time listed in the MDW casket team document). Meanwhile, the report of Boyajian, providing security at the autopsy room area (at the rear of the hospital) received the body (in a shipping casket, according to D David and Paul OConnor) at 6:35 PM. David with Boyajians team handling security why does Paul Miller state that the MDW was retained for security?? They could double as a security detail as well as the casket detail? A major mistake in your post occurs when you write: The contents of the Dallas casket are not seen until after 8pm when the MDW team unloads it. That is completely incorrect, and results in all kinds of confusion to anyone attempting to follow your narration of events. Because, in effect, your "time zero" is wrong. Again, it is completely incorrect to state that the body wasnt observed, or seen, etc., until 8 PM. In fact, it was "received" at 6:35 PM; and that is when the doctors first observed the body. David... Thanks for the post... and please continue to correct me where I am wrong... If the Dallas Casket arrives at the front at 6:55 (empty) and then at the morgue at 7:17 (again, empty) at some point the body is placed back into the Dallas Casket (after 7:17 and before 8pm) and is then finally off loaded by the MDW, then what is the mistake in stating that The contents of the Dallas casket are not seen until after 8pm when the MDW team unloads it ?? The SS, probably led by Kellerman/Greer, clears the ante-room while JFKs body is actually laying in the morgue, and transfers the body back to the Dallas Casket... and then somehow back out to the Hearse that originally took the casket from Andrews so the MDW can do their job. For all intents and purposes the contents of the Dallas Casket (the fact it is empty) is NEVER discovered by anyone other than the SS... with Humes and Boswell and an amphitheater of spectators including Reed/Robinson prior to 7:17pm?... The FBI and anyone not involved with the 6:35 delivery never sees the contents of the Dallas Casket until after 8pm as well (all except the SS). I never said the body wasnt observed or seen, until 8pm What I said and implied was the official opening of the Dallas Casket, after the MDW records the entrance into the morgue, was the first time anyone other than the SS see the inside of the Dallas Casket now with JFKs body in it. The reality is that xrays and some sort of work is done on JFK from 6:35 till just before 8pm as confirmed by Finck later on. The first record of any recorded observation, however, occurs with the two FBI agents, Sibert and O'Neill, who escorted the empty casket to the room at 7:17 P.M. (The two agents, of course, did NOT know it was empty; but we can reliably infer that because the Boyajian report records the entry of the body at 6:35 PM, and, fyi, there is much other data establishing that the body arrived a good 20 minutes before the naval ambulance carrying the Dallas coffin). The FBI agents, who did not lose the ceremonial casket (that is, they did not "lose" the naval ambulance which contained that casket) brought it the morgue area, were kept out for a few minutes, then entered the morgue, and then witnessed the body being put on the table. That timeaccording to their interview with Specterwas 7:17 PM. So that is when they first see the doctor dealing with the body: 7:17 pm. And that is when Dr. Humes stated, in front of the two agents, that it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull." Anyway, that occurred at just a few minutes past 7:17 PM. Not 8pm. If Sibert and ONeill (along with Greer / Kellerman ONLY) are aware of the 7:17 viewing of JFKs body how are they not up in arms over an 8pm re-entry of the Dallas Casket now with JFK in it? From the Sibert/ONeill report: The Presidents body was removed from the casket in which it had been transported and was placed on the autopsy table, at which time the complete body was wrapped in a sheet and the head area contained an additional wrapping which was saturated with blood. Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertained that the Presidents clothing had been removed and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed, as well as surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking of photographs and X-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain in an adjacent room. Upon completion of X-Rays and photographs, the first incision was made at 8:15 p.m. David are you suggesting that Sibert and ONeill were also involved? There is no mention of what you claim MUST have happened... the bodys transfer from the morgue table to the Dallas Casket to the Hearse for an 8pm re-entry. As written and as you stated... starting at 7:17 thru 8:15 the body was being photographed and x-rayed how do these FBI men miss the re-entry and movement of the body that has to occur between 7:45 and 8pm or so?? Then, within minutes of 7:17 pm, they were cleared out of the room, supposedly for X-rays. (This is all spelled out both in the Sibert and O'Neill report, and in their ARRB testimony. See Chapter 28, Best Evidence, or details.) But during that periodi.e., after the room was cleared (supposedly for X-rays)-- the body (which had been there since around 6:35 PM) was then returned to the big Dallas casket, that casket was brought outside, and then the casket team, which had been running around looking for the ambulance with that casket (again, see my account quoting Barnum's report) suddenly found it, and brought it in at 8 pm. (Again, see their report, for the time). Again David.... what are Sibert and ONeill doing while this transfer is going on and what is their position regarding the 8pm re-entry of the Casket and body?? they knew JFK was already on the table just after 7:17, right? Thus, we are dealing here with 3 entries of 2 caskets; and the whole purpose (apparently) of this absurd exercise was to return the body to the Dallas casket in which it began its journey, and conceal the fact --at least in the US Army reports that would emanate from the Joint Casket Team--that Air Force One was carrying an empty coffin and that an intercept had taken place earlier in the day. Here, again, are the three key times, as documented in separate reports: 6:35 PM: The original arrival of the body, in a shipping casket--an event that occurred prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance, with the Dallas casket, which occurred at 6:55 pm (approx). The time 6:35 is cited in the Boyajian report. 7:17: PM The arrival (at the morgue) of the Dallas casket (which was empty); that time is provided by FBI Agents Sibert and O'Neill, when they were interviewed by WC atty Specter, in March, 1964. 8:00 PM The official delivery of the Dallas casket, now containing the body. That time is cited as the official morgue entry time in the report of the MDW tri-service casket team. (And yes, based on my interviews, one or more of them actually witnessed the body of JFK being taken out of the Dallas casket after that 8 P.M. entry). See chapter 16 for the story of the casket team; and chapter 28 of Best evidence for how all this was worked out, so that those who were present at the "first entry" (at 6:35 PM) were prevented from seeing the second entry (7:17 PM); and, in some cases, the third entry, too. They were sequestered. Of course, all this was helped along by the fact that some dozen or more lower level people were put under a military order not to talk, subject to court martial if they violated the order. (And those who did become aware of a "second casket" were told it was a "security measure." On this score, remember these words, which Commander Humes tucked into his WC testimony as protection (imho) against any future legal charges: QUOTE: Specter: tell us who else in a general ay was present at the time the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please? Humes: "I must preface by saying it will be somewhat incomplete. My particular interest was on the examination of the president and not of the security measures of the other people who were present." (Citation: 2 WCH 349) UNQUOTE Anyway, starting at 8 pm (and specifically, at 8:15 pm) the official autopsy was then underway. Ive interviewed the entire casket team, and they sure did stay at Bethesda, and at the morgue; and, fyi, they provided the ceremonial escort when JFK's body, now embalmed, left Bethesda and went to the White House, where the coffin was placed in the East Room. Again, keep in mind the difference between the USMC security detail, headed by Sgt. Boyajian, and the Joint tri-service casket team, headed by Lt. Sam Bird. The former was there to provide morgue security; the latter, for ceremonial purposes. then why does Paul Miller state the MDW is retained for security when they more than likely do not even have weapons? In the ARRB Collection, the Joint Casket bearer Team report is MD 163; Sgt. Boyajians report is MD-236. Put them together, along with the interviews I conducted for chapter 16 (the Decoy Ambulance) plus the accounts of Dennis David (Ch 25) and OConnor (Ch 26) and you will have the full story (akin to a 'bird's eye' view) of what happened at Bethesda on the night of 11/22/63i.e., the 3 entries of 2 caskets. I have no doubt that any of this was part of the original plan to assassinate Kennedy; but it did happen (i.e., it did unfold in this somewhat chaotic manner) because there was an imperfect execution of that plan. Viewed that way, the assassination was elegant in conception, but bungled in execution. Viewed that way, Best Evidence was about the "bungled plan"; whereas the focus of Final Charade is much more on what was "supposed to have happened," but did not. (And why). From whichever perspective it is viewed, the bottom line is that there was a major plot in the assassination of President Kennedy, whose purpose was not just to murder the President, but to alter the body prior to autopsy, so as to falsify the circumstances of his death. DSL 3/11/11 6 pm Los Angeles, Ca I refer back to your book quite often David... what becomes evident to me is the level of duplication across the board... bags, rifles, Oswalds, ambulances, films, brains, autopsies, etc... Just enough reality from one set of circumstances to make the second (or even third) set of circumstances both more realistic and more confusing at the same time. If you could clear up that FBI knowledge of the Casket re-entry between 7:17 and 8pm and why it was never reported, mentioned or acknowledged I sure would appreciate it... Btw - Currently reading Pigs on a Leash and it is definitely helping with the right mindset for Zapruder... realizing a splice is an obstruction of justice is really quite the aha moment... add the MATH threads and then Altgens testimony about the relatively short movement of the limo from his photo to the headshot, which I posted, and it does all begin to add up. My biggest problem comes from understanding how a second film was ever created from the same angle as the Z film so there was material to splice in, i.e. motorcade versus foreground versus background.... unless Z shot in slow motion and the film was then created afterward as you describe. Thanks again for your input Sincerely, DJ

Hi David, I think part of the confusion is that you have reports by different entities, with different jobs ... and they are each talking about *their* men .... and those are not the *same* men. Miller was the Chief of Ceremonies & Special Events for the Army MDW (Military District of Washington). They were the ceremonial dudes who escorted caskets, for instance. Boyajian was a Sargeant in the Marine Corp and his job was security at Bethesda. Miller sent a ceremonial team to Bethesda to unload the casket from the plane with some degree of pomp & circumstance, and then to again, at Bethesda, unload the casket from the ambulance and escort it into the morgue. But the SS agents who had been with JFK in Dallas that day, weren't going to relinquish the president to anyone else for his arrival back in D.C> ... they told Miller's ceremonial people that they would take the casket off and into the ambulance. They tried, they struggled, as Miller notes in his report, but it was heavy and they weren't trained to do that and needed some assistance. So, the casket is in the ambulance and the motorcade to Bethesda begins. That ceremonial detail gets on their helicopter and heads to Bethesda where it is then their duty to unload the casket and see it into the morgue. Boyajian's men were only at Bethesda. Their duties that evening, as Boyajian details in #2 of the report you posted, was to provide security ... cordon off entrances and exits, as well as provide a cordon around the casket as it was being offloaded and escorted in to keep it protected from prying news eyes and cameras. Part of the MDW ceremonial team was security as well per the report. They would have had however many helicopters needed to transport them to Bethesda. Boyajian's men at Bethesda had to wait until the casket arrived ... and per his report, there were changes in the expected times and what doors would be used, etc and they were seen double timing it around the hospital going from one place to the other. The hearse did not leave Bethesda until the body was ready to go back to the White House in the wee hours of the morning, and Greer drove it, just as he had driven it from Andrews to Bethesda. I hesitate to toss times out without the documents in front of me ... but off the top of my head, I recall the ambulance arrived at the entrance to Bethesda at 6:55pm .... proceeded to the front where Jackie and RFK got out, stayed there for a few minutes, then proceeded around back to the morgue dock where the casket was offloaded at 7:17 ... taken inside, and after set up and some preliminaries, which would include photos and x-rays, the first incision (according to Humes, for one,as I recall) was at 8:15pm.It's been a long time since I discussed this aspect or looked at those documents. I know there are some different times mentioned by some witnesses, but I believe the above are the best established times. So do check ... and I'll be interested to see what you find. Hope this helps with the two *different* teams of men, at least. Barb :-) Yes, it does Barb, thanks again... Here is Lifton's casket timeline... A hearse with the big, bronze Dallas coffin in it arrives out front of Bethesda at around 6:55, but as we know from Boyajian's report, the casket arrived at 6:35, and from Dennis David a metal shipping casket was off loaded and JFK was removed from this casket wrapped in plastic or in a body bag.... The contents of the Dallas casket are not seen until after 8pm when the MDW team unloads it. The loss of the hearse with this Casket is well documented... it would have to be sometime between 7:17 and 8pm that JFK is placed back into the Dallas Casket for formal entry. Paul's report also mentions the MDW sticking around to perform security for the Autopsy... if the Marines were there with Boyajian, and the MDW was NOT a security detail but a ceremonial detail... why have them stick around??

Where does Boyajian say that the casket was not removed from the plane at Andrews until 6:35 (1835)? In the document you posted, item #3 of the Boyajian document says the casket was *received* at the *morgue* at 1835.(Which, as I recall, is incorrect as the ambulance entered the grounds at Bethesda at 1855 (6:55pm). But, nonetheless, one report talks about the time the plane with the casket arrived at Andrews .... the other is talking about the time the casket arrived at the morgue at Bethesda. Bests, Barb :-) Thanks Barb... You are indeed correct... The plane lands at 6:05, Boyajian is at Bethesda with his group at 6:00 waiting for the casket... a casket arrives at 6:35 - he never says specifically his detail brings the casket inside, only that it was receieved and taken inside. So who is the "joint service casket bearer and security detail" that met the remains at Andrews and then were flown to Bethesda to transfer the remains to the US Naval Med Center? Was this the detail that chases hearses around and ultimately takes a casket inside at 7:17? Who was in this detail as opposed to Boyajian's? I'll get back to the books and such to clarify my understanding... I guess the real questions are - how long did this other detail sit at Andrews? - when did the hearse leave Andrews? - was anything else flown with this detail to Bethesda or elsewhere? - how many helicopters took off from Andrews after the casket was off-loaded? thanks for your input Barb DJ

Reading Burkely's account he mentions the large Dallas casket as being METAL... which it appears to have been as it was also described as metal during the process of drilling holes in it to bury it at sea... I realize the embalmer's notes says "metal shipping casket" - I had wondered if they might have been referring to the Britannia that traveled from Dallas.... yet the big metal casket does not really look anything like a metal shipping casket. This is turn led me into some research to discover if indeed the Dallas casket was metal... and then this in turn led me to this After Action Report that recaps the entire weekend. In all that I've read about the 3 casket entries I've only heard of Dennis David's account and Boyajian's report as substantiation... These are excerpts from Paul C Miller's After Action Report... not only does this cast an interesting twist to the timeline, but it also shows how reluctant the Secret Service was in relinquishing control.... http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx The transferring of the "remains" off the airplane as orchestrated by the Secret Service needs much more... the front right door comes to mind. In any case... I created this collage of the pertinent pieces of his report... according to this report the casket arrives at 6:05 at Andrews yet according to Boyajian they do not remove the casket until 6:35.... If this has been brought out before, please excuse me... not having remembered reading about this report in support of Lifton/Horne's conclusions about the casket entries - I thought it was worth posting. DJ

DVP - Why exactly do you assume that SINCE there was a conspiracy, the idea was to hide it? I believe the intent of the conspiracy was to FIRST - implicate Oswald in one form or another and SECOND - to serve as a warning to ANYONE with ideas of going up against the war-fare state. EVERYONE knew it was a conspiracy from the moment it happened... the number of people who support a shot from the front is monumental David. Ignoring that evidence only makes it go away in your mind - to the rest of us it is indicative of a conspiracy - of a plan involving more than a Lone Nut trying to kill a president. So let me ask you a simply question Does an innocent government conduct itself in the manner it did in an honest attempt to find the killer of its president? Please illustrate these innocent, honest actions in pursuit of the truth as opposed to their twisting, discarding, altering and/or changing each piece of evidence to implicate Oswald IN SPITE OF THE FACTS. The reailty is a conspiracy which ultimately takes the form of an ethical and moral cover-up by people simply too afraid, too involved or simply flat out ORDERED to do nothing about it. As you so eloquently put it - the president was indeed killed... mission accomplished Oswald is killed by one of the most connected men in Dallas... mission accomplished LBJ is now president and the entire world changes... mission accomplished Hoover is in office for life.... mission accomplished The military and CIA get to escalate Vietnam.... mission accomplished The Cold War continues... mission accomplished It's obvious to most Americans and to the rest of the world that US leaders are not exempt from political assassination and the cover-up/change of policies that go along with it. Including changes to the Constitution: Notes for this amendment: Proposed 7/6/1965 Ratified 2/10/1967 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Correct David... Nothing is ever what it seems to be... When a third party can buy THE key evidence, represent it fraudulently and then lock it away When originals are mysteriously not available while unsubstantiated copies are used as prima facie evidence When the possibility of forgery is not even considered or investigated When the Standard Operating Procedures are disgarded in numerous instances from correctly processing a Money Order to transfering a prisoner to a county Jail When you think everything supports Oswald's guilt to the exclusion of all others... yes indeed DVP - nothing is ever what IT seems to be.

As I linked back to this thread I am amazed by what I am reading in Powell's Memo... As I approached this intersection, at approximately 1228 hours, and was about one block away, Kennedy’s motorcade was just turning West off Houston Street. At this point, I heard at least two loud explosions, which I assumed could either have been shots from a firearm or some sort of fireworks. Several people in the crowd, which was at the intersection to view the motorcade as it passed, pointed up at the Texas School Book Depository (TSBDB), 411 South Elm Street. I took a photograph of the building at that instant. Several policeman, men from the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office, and newspapers and television reporters, were rushing toward the railroad switching yard behind the TSBDB. I followed them in order to learn what had happened. One of the television reporters, whose name I did not get, said that he heard that someone had fired a gun at Kennedy. Are the 2 explosions and their reactions cut from the films based on the MATH thread? He could not have possibly taken this photo BEFORE Dillard... but based on this memo he took it as the limo turned the corner That's impossible... right?

Okay...now that we have a concrete example of the difference in the 2 film speeds and location: Altgens claims to have been 15 feet from JFK at the head shot... after being AT MOST 40 feet from JFK when he took his photo equating to z255. are you suggesting that starting at 157 the motorcade is proceeding along in one time and space while the foreground & background have been spliced in so everything lines up? I still have a tough time with the Moorman photo then... it lines up the limo with its background... if the fatal shot was further down the road Moorman's photo would not look like it does... or are you saying that Moorman is in the right place but it was actually a different frame number? PLEASE help me understand this... You seem to be 100% correct... yet you still have not told us where this 24.3fps camera was. I mentioned this in a previous post... How wo you suppose a 2nd camera filmed the scene whereby it could even be spliced into the Z film??? that's my biggest hurdle here. Thanks Chris... really great stuff.

Jim - Can you go into that a bit more... why/where in Alexandria VA? (which is only 15 miles from Langley) and how does that relate back to the SOP for 1st Nat'l Chicago ?? additionally, I did a bit more work on those 2 stamps and it appears to me they are not the same... look at the curve of the letters and spacing as well as the arc of the outer circle which also does not match... up in the corner I see that the "D" on the left is bigger than the "D" on the right, the extra stamp. Mean anything?

I had asked a question that I would love answered... Where was this MO found by RHJ/JHM/JEP on 11/23? Where is it supposed to go after payment to 1st National Chicago? thanks

Pat, You seem to be struggling with terminology. Do you know the difference between firing for accuracy and firing for accuracy under rapid fire conditions? Additionally there is nothing to be gained from the rifle tests, and why is that? Because as Frazier clearly tells us someone removed that scope. There is no two ways about that, and thus, the old CT drivel about a misaligned scope is hogwash purely because there is no way to prove that. So again, I ask, Can you provide me with one shred of proof that the rifle scope was misaligned at the time of the assassination? Mike, Mike.... why oh why do you keep sidestepping the real issue... Plain and Simple: The scope on the rifle recovered from the TSBD is of no consequence.... Getting that rifle into Oswald's possession, getting the rifle to the TSBD, getting that rifle - assembled - to the 6th floor SE corner, getting Oswald to the 6th floor SE corner window, addressing the 3 men seen with rifles on the 6th floor at 12:15, .... are you seeing my point? I can claim Oswald shot JFK with a Sherman Tank from that window - are we going to spend days back and forth about his ability to aim and fire a Sherman Tank ??? No, we're first going to have to prove that Oswald and the Tank are somehow connected, and somehow made it's way to the 6th floor. Same with that rifle As I've said repeatedly... proving the condition of the weapon is pointless... there is no real way to know... but let me suggest this... at some point during the 22nd Ruth Paine, or even that night before when she turns out the light, disposes of the rifle in the blanket if there ever was one... because lo and behold, it was never a 6.5mm MC. The HIDELL rifle from Kleins, delivered incorrectly with no record of Oswlad ever picking it up and now no real proof the MO used to pay for it was ever cashed, is found where it was... in the TSBD. No one fired it, no clip falls out when the last round is ejected, as it is supposed to No clip is seen in the bottom of the rifle in the Alyea film A clip magically appears later in Day's possession The verdict, within hours is that Oswald, acting as Hidell bought, paid for and used this rifle in a spontaneous action that kills JFK. We don't want to know where he was at the time We don't want to know that a rfile addressed to Hidell could not be delivered to Oswald's PO Box We don't want to know that the bag that supposed held the rifle was seen by and described as too small for such an action by the only person who saw it We don't want to know that other men looking like Oswald and bringing attention to themselves in a sinister manner We don't want to know that Oswald is impersonated in Mexico We don't want to know he did NOT get on that bus We don't want to hear from Roger Craig - that's for dam sure! We dont' want to believe the 60 witnesses who heard and saw atleast a shot from a place other than the TSBD We really won't want to know about the men with rifles on the 6th floor at 12:15 We don''t want to know about the people leaving the back of the TSBD right after the assasination and driving away We don't want to know about missed shots, extra wounds, shots from the front, a shallow back wound and everyone from Parkland to Bethesda, from Jackie to Hill (what were they 1 foot from JFK?) describing the hole in the back of his head and the bullet entrance at the right temple So Mike.... whether the scope was properly aligned and whether Frazier did accuracy test is a complete waste of time and THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT... bury the CT in minutia... and it continue to work to this day... we can't help it... we love minutia, we can hang our hats on it. Until you read Unspeakable and about 10 of the other essays and articles suggested we are going to be stuck talking technicalities regarding an impossibility - Oswald never shot that rifle. 3 teams of much more experienced assassins killed JFK for any one a 100 reasons... accomplish all those things I list above and THEN we can talk scopes. So I will ask again... if a shot from the right front is an exploding bullet, how does it blow a hole in the BACK of JFK's head? My gut feeling is it didn't... another head shot did. DJ Frazier clearly tells us there is no way to know. What do you say? Ugh, Now back to removing a virus on the work servers.......good lord.....

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 (severly cropped ALTGENS 6) understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head. Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it. Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right? Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. Mr. LIEBELER - Am I wrong, or isn't it correct that under that testimony the car couldn't have moved very far down Elm Street between the time you took Exhibit No. 203, which you took when the first shot was fired, and the time that you saw his head being hit, which was the time the last shot was fired? DJ: Even Liebeler is not buying it !! Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I have to take into consideration the law governing photographic materials and the use of optics in cameras--lenses--and while my camera may have been set on a distance of 30 feet, there is a plus or minus, area in which the focus still is maintained. I figure that this is approximately 30 feet because that's what I have measured on my camera. Mr. LIEBELER - And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away? Mr. ALTGENS - But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing--if I focus at 15 feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet. I believe, if you will let me say something further here about this picture---- Mr. LIEBELER - Go ahead. Mr. ALTGENS - Possibly I could step this off myself from this position, this approximate position where I was standing and step off the distance, using as a guidepost the marker on this post here or some marker that I can find in the area and I can probably step it off or measure it off and get the exact footage. I was just going by the markings on my camera. Mr. LIEBELER - The important thing is--it's not all that important as to how far you were away from the car at the time you took the picture--the thing that I want to establish is that you are absolutely sure that you took Exhibit No. 203 at about the time the first shot was fired and that you are quite sure also in your own mind, that there were no shots fired after you saw the President hit in the head. Mr. ALTGENS - That is correct; in both cases. Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say. Mr. LIEBELER - Well, what were you going to suggest--go ahead. Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it seems obvious now, when you think back on it--of course, at the time you don't reason these things out in a state of shock, but it seemed obvious to me afterwards that there wouldn't be another shot if the sniper saw what damage he did. He did enough damage to create enough attention to the fact that everybody knew he was firing a gun. Another shot would have truly given him away, because everybody was looking for him, but as I say, that's an obvious conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. {yeah, thanks for toting the company line Mr. A} Chris... please tell me if what you are presenting supports this conclusion: Distance from 313 to 341, 28 frames, is about 22 feet. Distance from 255 to 313, 58 frames, is about 45 feet 45 + 22 = 67 feet Altgens is at MAX 40 feet from his z255 image which he says is the first shot but we know this not to be the case - which in itself is a case for at least 4 shots. Move the entire scene 30 feet to the west and Mr. Altgens is telling the truth yet is in direct conflict with Nix, Zapruder and Muchmoore... In an alteration we can have all the extra frames at 24 fps used to push the limo east 30 feet ???? I am just having a difficult time visualizing how that is done on the Z film. and more importantly, when and where is the 24fps movie shot from? As this collage illustrates - a camera anywhere but in Zapruder's hands would have to move a huge distance to maintain camera angle integrity. I keep thinking that maybe the Zap film was actually 24fps, claimed at 18.3 fps and a single film has more than enough frames to remove as needed to result in the claimed 18.3fps version we now see. If you can somehow convert the math into real concerns on the extant Zfilm, as I am attempting above, and get it right - which of course I am not sure of in my case - I think it will allow us to find more and more places where this type of alteration occurs... Would an overly wound B&H camera run at 24fps for a shot (short - freudian slip?? ) period of time? DJ

No, I'm addressing ALL the issues related to the bag that I'm interested in. Good thing you don't confuse yourself with little things like facts & evidence. Proving a picture of the planted bag was or was not the same as a picture of a fabricated bag will go a long way to help us understand the reality or not of the bag Oswald was SUPPOSEDLY carrying a disassembled rifle to work in.... Nothing like staying safe and secure in one's comfort zone... saves the trouble of learning anything, testing hypotheses, digging a little deeper and being wrong, humbled and admitting it from time to time.... the worst of all sins. Thanks so much for your contribution to this thread Craig... it's value is obvious