David Josephs

31 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

David:

1947 then is the earliest appearance of Marguerite and Harvey. So much info about them is available after that date but not before. The only other record is the 1941 letter about M.Oswald and Nazis in New Jersey. Any ideas as to where we could look to find info on her prior to 1947? have you ever spoken to John A. about his search for her origins?

Only speculative discussions as to who she might be...  And really no idea how to begin...

Then again, it would be the perfect place though to hide an agent in plain sight... maybe that's why they've let her spout off all those years...

47 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I am sure you can do it

Thanks for the confidence...  the point made here is that the amount of visual information available from the frames we are discussing is painfully short on detail due to its size.
I've NEVER argued he didn't change his clothes...  just not in the manner we've come to accept these past 50 years....  I'm very confident THAT PM was Oswald.

===

The point being made is that simply because the DPD says so - doesn't make it true.   NOTHING AUTHENTICATES that these items were taken from Beckley... is there?

Do you supposed when the FBI talks to Johnson or Roberts they're going to corroborate the DPD or speak against them?

The POINT, sir is that the investigation was purposefully vague on these "BECKLEY" items.... and even more vague on OSWALD items... 250 items leave Dallas for FBI DC
more than 500 are returned and photographed and returned again to the FBI.... except the FBI added evidence... I'm sure you can find which ones were added and which weren't...

Don't you suppose a photograph of a holster hanging on OSWALD's doorknob would go a long way in corroborating the pistol in evidence...
And you don't even bother to address his lack of most anything necessary at the PAINE residence...

Instead we get this - putting this holster in the same category as the Minox camera....  This even though we obviously have a photo and inventory sheets in triplicate with that holster...

DUPLICITY was the name of the game that day and permeated the Evidence... 

Why again MUST he have lived at Beckley continuously from mid October thru Nov 22?

14 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

David:

Interesting story about call traces but with the national security state's hunt for subversives they probably would have developed the ability to do so.

In 1963 long-distance calls would have a record because this additional charge would have to be paid by the telephone subscriber. The telephone companies also had the ability at that time to charge LD calls to another number. David Ferrie did this quite often, calling a number from somewhere else and having the LD charges added to his telephone bill. 

https://archive.org/details/1963longdistancecalls

Makes sense John.   I'm fairly sure a trace was never even attempted, or if it was the report related to it is gone and buried....

Does the lack of follow-up mean they thought her serious and buried it or thought the story was about a crackpot caller... ??

From anyone outside the H&L world at the time the call sure would sound like a crank...  and only hold any meaning if it had a chance of being true, I'd think.

41 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

David:

Shanghai was at this time a center of international espionage. Shanghai was controlled by various foreign governments and I found it interesting that Eckdahl,  who would later be involved with LHO, lived there.

Here's a couple things about China and Ekdahl....  his coming and going and then being in NY when "they" arrive.... the timeline betrays the lies of John and Robert related to the timeframe with Ekdahl.... where they were and where they lived....

40 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Ed:

I asked you not to turn to me unless and until you answer the question how the dark slacks CE158 (black) fit with the slacks seen on Prayer Man. If you eventually find the courage to answer this question I may then be willing to respond to your posts.

 

Before I address your non-insult included question to Ed... courage?   I'd like you to go to the index for Volume 16, the start of the CE's....

How come only items of paper or documents and photos are attributed TO LEE OSWALD while every item of clothing offered up as his only say that there are a "Man's" item
and not specifically Lee Harvey Oswald's?   ALL of these items come from BECKLEY... was the FBI not sure if they were Ozzie's? Andrej?

CE 133-A-B - Photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald holding a rifle.

CE 158 - Man's black trousers.

& Why do you suppose so many Exhibits of what are supposedly Oswald's things, missing? 119, 120, 124, 137,138, 148, 149

======

Now Prayerman....  that you believe there is enough information in the frame(s) offered to distinguish pants color (like some other describing buttons on a lady's coat), I have some food for your thought...

The size of the 8mm frame and the size of the Prayerman figure within the frame:  Unless I've missed it somewhere, NONE of the details of the person's pants can be distinguished from the information offered.

Do you have an image of Prayerman that actually shows "pants" and gives you the impression it is NOT Oswald?
If so, please post as that would be the only way you can prove your point....

Why do you specifically call out CE158? or was that Ed?

The similarities are a bit frightening, no?  Even the squared off shoulders, the tilt of his head, the hairline, how he holds his arms....

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

"So "a phone call" becomes "several calls"

This means to me the unknown woman had a compelling urge to divulge the information she had.  Perhaps, the death of Kennedy was horrific to her and she had to do something.  IMO, she didn't call the Tippits for their benefit.  She called to use them as a means to get her information out to someone.  I don't think she realistically believed that the Tippits would not report her call to the authorities or the newspapers.  It may have been her intention that the Tippits share that information.

John... if you highlight text in a post you will be prompted to "quote" that text so it shows up like yours in the box above... quoting others without this as you've been doing can get very confusing....  highlight and click - really helps the flow.

What you say here suggests forethought of intent from a literally scared-to-death woman... whereas that kind of intent feels more planned out than the thoughts of an agitated woman...

Can't imagine anyone thinking they could drop a bomb like that on M/M TIPPIT and it not create ripples and consequences - agree?

If so, it suggests to me part of a plan - Phillips was a Master at CI in the field, e.g. Alvarado in Mexico.  GAUDET may have even been part of the plan but that tangent can be discussed elsewhere...

Here we are 60 years later and no closer to the caller or the intent.... hate to say it but it once again feels more like a Rabbit hole from Alice than evidence which would lead to anything concrete....  we ought to remember that killing JFK would provide the communists virtually nothing in terms of a gain while risking heightened retaliation...

As weird as it may sound, EKDAHL was married in China, in 1925.  a Communist country in the making - and fully Communist by 1949.
Like the Russians, the FBI/CIA.ONI/MID/NSA/etc... kept tabs on the Chinese just as closely.

Just a few thoughts...

DJ

16 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

David,  I take your point and am not well informed on this to offer anything solid as a reply....so was it that he was paying for a room with a lock but just didn't have a key or lock the room?   Lack of info on my part.

Hey there Larry...  and Ed please correct me if wrong here... the doors to his room had keyholes for locks.... it was said by the more current owner Mrs. Hall I believe that he was not provided a key as he had a non-locking room while the basement and 2nd structure had rooms which included locks since they bypassed the main house...

At least that's how I read it.  and that the room rates where the same either way.... his "receipt" shows $8/wk... the Ad for the room which Roe posted said $7/wk.

One would think he had one of the locked rooms if he was there.

... and I think my other point above needs repeating...  in true DPD fashion, the photographing of his room AS THEY FOUND IT  or as they open drawers and closets to find all this stuff...happens with the same attention to detail as the interrogation  

====

The could have had little Studebaker with his months of police photographer work history or anyone with a camera... but all those people were having a late afternoon lunch with all the stenographers who worked at the DPD.... DPD tape recorders where parting gifts, sorry we're done plumb out of 'em here at Homicide....... 

Take care Larry,  DJ

46 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The black polo shirt seen on backyard photographs - could it be that the shirt got lost or damaged and then disposed of during 8 months elapsing between early March and November 22?

Andrej - if you are aware of the details related to the ITEMS BELONGING TO OSWALD IN EVIDENCE you'd find items from years and years before.

You get the impression from Oswald's personal inventory that he DIDN'T keep things forever? Really?

It begs a simple question like - if he took the 5' rifle carton with the rifle home with him on the bus (despite all the evidence against any of this happening) wouldn't that box remain a great way to store this rifle as it needs to move from Neely to Irving in Ruth's Station Wagon?  Sure seems better than his daughter's blanket.

But you see sir, none of this ever happened except for in the legend of Ozzie series on BSTV....

One last thing... the police arrive at the suspect's room, 1026 N BECKLEY we are told, and take most everything without bothering to take a single photo of the room BEFORE removing it all... kinda like the paper bag in the corner drawn into a photo by Studebaker...  I mean really? what kind of BS is that for one of the largest police departments in the country?

So in terms of REAL EVIDENCE - nothing but the say so of those setting the man up places those items at that address... and the bewildered herds nodding in agreement of be forever hassled by the DPD, the Dallas Sheriff department.... and the US Government/FBI...  know the story of LEON YATES do ya?

45 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

What a remarkable likeness between the early Cruz arrest mug shot and the Alpha 66 chair sitting young man.

Same face shape, expression, mouth and lip and space between the nose and upper lip, thin chin, thin neck, high forehead and of course those big sticking out ears.

And Cruz himself has stated he was very active politically while living in Texas. The meeting man also looks to be the right age of Cruz during his time there. Great find David.

Thanks Joe...  now one step further... in the back of the room I find a man standing just as OSWALD stands in many of the images ... 
it's not an ID by any means - just suggestive...

Tilted head to the left, arms bent and at sides (never straight down), the crossed arms.... the blow-up is from just above the elder CRUZ's photo in the image I posted above.

Six degrees of separation 

On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2020 at 12:49 PM, Stu Wexler said:

It is my understanding that there are two people leafletting with Oswald. One is Charles Steele. He is the "anglo."  I looked into it and he does not appear to be the Alpha 66 guy. The other is unknown. He is he one with the tie.  He is not Rafael Cruz.  I have some thoughts as to who it might be but a better still of the guy who be helpful if a comparison becomes possible.

I was under the impression the man on the left was Charles Hall Steele Jr.

Please correct me if mistaken... thanks

DJ

The photos of Cruz reminded me of someone I had seen in a photo of an ALPHA 66 meeting on Harlendale...

Is that him?

9 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said:

A flight might be a way of squaring the circle between being in Dallas on the 26th September and in Mexico City on the 27th. Absolutely no evidence of it at all that I can find on basic internet searches though...

Thanks Anthony for taking the time.... took me almost 2 years to get that info out about that trip.

The other point that really shouldn't be glossed over - or omitted entirely - is what Odio and her sister say about the man visiting them at the same time as he's supposed to be on a bus.

I also cannot stress enough the role of the man in charge of all the Mexico City evidence... ALL of it.

"..in the office of RAFAEL HERNANDEZ OCHOA"  ... "investigative assistance in the OSWALD case"

Both Echeverria and OCHOA were US Intel assets.  CIA and FBI respectively.

16 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I do agree on your point David, but two things may be in play....first Oswald was notoriously cheap, he really didn't have much money and he really did care for his kids (my beliefs).  Back in 1963 eight bucks was a lot of money, only five years later my wife was trying to run our entire weeks groceries for under $20 and doing it most weeks.  That was not a choice, I was in the Air Force with one stripe at the time.

And Oswald had more than a little attitude...who needs a lock, I don't have anything worth stealing.

I don't really claim to be able to get inside his head but DeMohrenschildt (sp) described him as a proto-hippy (they didn't lock their doors either...grin).

Larry - wasn't he already paying the $8 for his unlocked room?  I didn't get the impression that locked rooms were an additional $8/wk...

and yeah, in 1964 when I was 2 my dad changed industries to take home $256/month.  Rent was $100, his car was $80 and he hustled pool on weekends making a few hundred extra every month.... we also ate at grandma's a lot...

... What's your thinking on them claiming to find his June passport in the room?  If he "planned" to do any of this or was convinced to be certain places so he could be wisked away some of the things he left in that room seem to me as necessities for a hurried escape...  every form of identification was supposedly located in that room when the rest of his family lived permanently elsewhere... with a garage containing some of his stuff....

Just seems strange in a JFK kinda way...

10 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said:

"38" holster... yep its official... haha

As "official" as the BS gets in this case....  here's the same day retraction

11 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I would not like to open the shirt issue in this thread again as the risk is that this becomes another Prayer Man thread. The problem for no-North Beckley scenario is both the shirt and the slacks.

Andrej....  I have been a STRONG proponent of the shirt/pants change undoing BLEDSOE's testimony and identifying her as a "willing cooperator"...

But I've had to rethink my position...

The "Brown button-down, grey slacks and other misc men's clothing" - wonder why the MISC is not detailed (reminds me of our Garage crew describing the KEY PHOTOS OF OSWALD IN THE BACKYARD as "Misc Photos"...  but they can detail the different colors of completely unimportant items....  kinda feels like that 2nd page of inventory was just cobbled together and things like Underwear, Socks, coats, sweaters, ties (items we've seen in photos of Oswald) are not listed at all...

I've also been through every single inventory and item sheet related to Oswald...  his clothing is where the inventory item numbering stops, after #455...

Please notice that not a single item of clothing is taken from the PAINE residence - suggesting he'd stop on his way with Wesley... but that doesn't happen...

The inventory a pink bar of soap... but I still don't see the black pants or black shirt worn in the Backyard Photos... ???  you'd think that would be important...no?

As to the last two items added to the BECKLEY PROPERTY list (bottom image - not to mention his leaving his PASSPORT - so much for that quick getaway out of the country, eh?)
We are left with having to accept the word of these policemen that any or all of these items were found in the room....  for some reason none of Oswald's belongings were ever photographed in that room, where they were found, BEFORE taken into custody as evidence....  kinda like that paper bag Andrej....

Repeat after me my friend... the situational analysis remains FUBAR to this day cause of irreconcilable authenticity of most of not all the evidence

DJ

So "a phone call" becomes "several calls"
Unless specifically "plugged" the call couldn't be traced (Long Distance would have involved an operator with possibly a record) yet would the caller know that?
We still haven't figured out who she was fearful of.... but a call tracing usually suggests the FBI.CIA... which to me suggests prior knowledge of the caller by the FBI/CIA and vice versa... yeah?

the FBI report specifically says she didn't say her name out of fear... again reinforcing prior knowledge...

"nothing be said about a woman calling as THEY would know her identity...  if the CIA was involved in something in NY with Hungarian refugees and communists "SHE" would have needed to be in the middle of it...

More later...

John K. mentions the FBI being able to trace the call...  maybe not...

https://daysgoneby.me/trace-call-1950s-style-took-little-longer/

Trace That Call

by

Clifford Dobbins

In the 1950s and 60s I was employed by General Telephone of Kentucky. In the early 1960’s I was the business office supervisor in Ashland, Kentucky, which serviced eight surrounding cities

Now in those earlier years of technology, the digital revolution was yet to be. There was no Caller ID or other such features. In those days telephone calls were routed and connected through a series of mechanical switches. There was no existing way to determine who was placing the calls.

By working with our plant department personnel we devised a method to identify the calling party. Using a special plug we could freeze the mechanical switches to keep the call open and as long as the receiving party did not hang up their phone, we could trace the call back to the originating party.

29 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

David, if you had ever lived in a barracks in the fifties or sixties you might describe this as light, cherry and private (in other words there was a door)...grin.

I'm not taking any position on the pistol but I also have to say things were quite casual in those days, I have been in many homes and apartments with loaded weapons in drawers, on shelves and tables etc. with kids all over the place.   I'm not saying its not stupid, we just didn't think much about it, at least down here where I live.

True... excuse me for using my 2020 brain to come to 1963 conclusions....

Thankfully I missed the draft... turned 18 in 1980.

Still doesn't address the painfully private Oswald and an "open to all" room.... it seems terribly incongruous when the place did have rooms with locks for what appears to be the same $7-$8 per week....  using the 1963 brain again, I realize many homes were just left open and unlocked... different atmosphere from a time long gone

Looking at this list - some pretty sensitive things to be left in an unlocked, unsupervised room...  since he went to Irving Thursday he could have removed some of these things knowing he was going to do for what he was eventually charged....  Stopping off on the way with WESLEY would solidify Beckley... Wesley didn't even give him a ride to his Beckley room on HIS way home each night... saving Ozzie bus fare...  but that doesn't happen.....

Food for thought... the little zippered bag claimed to have traveled to Mexico with Ozzie was Brown... not "Blue and Black"... FWIW

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Mrs Pat Hall replied through FB Messenger to my information request regarding the keys rules in 1026 North Beckley. Here is how she described the rules:

"Thank you for contacting me. Mr. Lee lived in the main house. Therefore he did not have keys to the front door or his room. Those living in the basement or the back house had keys to their own entrance level and a key to their own room. "

This should explain why no keys were found on Lee Oswald after his arrest.

So whenever he was not there - especially weekends - the grandkids had access to his pistol and holster and everything else he had there?

You're suggesting that our Oswald would be okay with leaving all of his possessions accessible by anyone wandering into his room - does that sound like our Oswald?

Wondering why they would lie about a WINDOW versus a DOOR....

and yes there were a few windows but "light and cheery" ?

4 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

John B:

Do you know what the earliest date that John A. has for Marguerite and Oswald been seen together? A lot of effort ha been expended examining Harvey's origins, have you attempted to locate Marguerite's origins?

On July 7 1947 "MARGUERITE EKDAHL" buys 101 San Saba while living at 1505 8th street.... but never lives there...

September 1947 - one of the strangest records I've ever seen related to the Oswalds.... Marge OSWALD divorced in May 1947 from Ekdahl... yet her name changes FROM Oswald to EKDAHL...  the is NEVER a "Lee Oswald" attending school in Tarrant County.

Georgia Bell - living across the street - sees a "short, fat woman with glasses and a young boy" living at 101 San Saba during the summer of '47.
The FBI report on her changes this to 1948... despite that being the summer John and Robert had left Chamberlain Academy.  

It would appear this is when Marge and Harvey come into existence and we speculate that they move to 2220 Thomas as another neighbor LUCILLE HUBBARD drives them to 2220 Thomas to pick up some furniture for 101 San Saba.  2220 Thomas is a reoccurring theme right up to 11/22 - Marge is living at 2220 Thomas and also owned a place on the other side of the school on BYERS...  We had 4833 BIRCHMAN where the REAL MARGE lived... that address does not exist in the WCR... CE229 is the envelope from the Albert Schweitzer School with forwarding addresses - all of which are LEE's mother... none appear as a location where Harvey's caretaker lived .

=======

It would also appear that sometime in 1949 Marguerite, Lee and John visit 101 San Saba... where John takes some photos.  The car is a '38 Plymouth while the car in the EKDAHL Marriage photo with the car is a late 30's BUICK....  John claims he brought the photo cause:

Mr. PIC - Exhibit No. 55, sir, shows Lee's dog and the family car- This car belonged to us, that is why I brought it.

In 1949 we have John Pic's photos of Lee and "Blackie" the dog at San Saba despite Pic claiming to:

Mr. PIC - It was an L--shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was--
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.

Mr. JENNER - Take that other exhibit and tell us what it was.
Mr. PIC - This was the same dog Lee had in 1948 when we returned from the school. Exhibit No. 54 shows the same store in the background and Lee Harvey Oswald, and a dog named Blackie. And to the right of the picture is the roof and corner of the house.
Mr. JENNER - The house in which you lived?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55.   (John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 were marked for identification.)
Mr. PIC - After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex

The Divorce was final in May 1947 with MARGE getting $1500 less $250 to the lawyers....the WARRANTY DEED says she puts down $1500  (the sale to Otis R. Carleton in 1951 is a crazy story in itself)

Does a name on a mailbox “verify” that someone actually lives there?

Does it ever say they actually moved?  They owned nothing so all these rooms were furnished, apartments stocked with utensils, etc...?

Boy that FBI was thorough... 

21 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

I'm trying to work this into the timeline that we do know.

Oswald was brought into the interrogation room at 2:20. Detectives were dispatched to Beckley at 2:40. By 2:00 he had already been arrested and was arriving at City Hall.

As you said, no inventory sheet includes this piece of paper, and there is nothing in the dispatch tapes announcing this "discovery".

Nor does it explain why, when the police arrived at Beckley, they were asking for a Harvey Lee Oswald (as per Earlene Roberts).

Steve Thomas

Steve....  you did all that great work on "Harvey Lee"... 

Do you remember if you found any identifying document listing his name like that, which Beckley could have been added to?

We should remember too that it may have been WESTBROOK and KROY in the other police car in the driveway...  and what Mrs. HOLAN said she saw...

the time to have left the wallet would have been then, at 1pm....  yet from all the witness accounts, there was no wallet there....  until Westbrook gets there....

then again the ambulance driver said Tippit was covered by a Blue Overcoat... and the fact Tippit was FACE DOWN.... with his legs pointed towards the rear of the car...

(I realize this is not strictly THE BECKLEY BUNCH but if that Wallet was the source for Beckley, and there continues to be all these conflicting bits of evidence about virtually every single detail.... I believe it warrants having the general knowledge - hope you agree, DJ)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcarine_sulcus

From the Tippit Autopsy - verbatim:  Except when you actually draw this path onto an anatomically correct model... the right TEMPLE is much higher than the areas in the brain these notes say are above and to the left....  the description is frighteningly close to the path of JFK's right temple hit...

Examination of the wound of the right temple is made.  It is found to enter in the right cranial fossa, pursues a course which is slightly 

  upward, backward and to the left.  There is fracturing about the entrance and extensive fractures as it strikes the left 

  occipitoparietal bone.  It is recovered in this region, 3 inches to the left of the midline and approximately 1 inch 

  from the top of the head.  Examination of the brain is made.  The brain weighs 1350 gm.  The course of the missile through 

  the brain is followed. It is found to enter the right temporal lobe, coursed through the brain transecting the brain stem, 

  severing the cerebral peduncles surrounded by extensive hemmorhage, and found to exit from the brain stustance in the

  cacarine gyrus to the left of the midline.

40 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said:

Thanks to both of you Larry and David, you've just brought me to a new understanding!  And, thanks to you David, I'm seeing how this relates to the Mexico City events.  I've never fully comprehended what that was all about --it's been a weak point in my studying.  I get it now.

Great to hear Paul....  best compliment I could get here.....  greater understanding....

There are a number of great writers discussing those 5 days in Sept/Oct...  I choose to look at what the FBI did to "prove" he went and came back only to find 1500 documents trying to hide the fact he didn't.  (at least from my interpretation)

Bringing full circle to Beckley....  I've maintained a challenge to all for many years: 

Can we name any Evidence in this case which can be AUTHENTICATED as Real Evidence....  whether by design or not, the duplicity inherent to the "Evidence" is rampant.

Why this should suddenly not apply to 1026 Beckley with a "Herbert Leon Lee" living there and not a single piece of evidence to direct the PD/Sheriffs there (except maybe the Westbrook Wallet) is almost as absurd as thinking the USA all-of-a-sudden got out of the assassination business in Nov 1963. 

From the FBI/CIA POV, why tell the complete truth about anything when you're framing an innocent man?

1 hour ago, Paul Bacon said:

My thoughts were prompted by the idea that the original plot may have been intended to implicate the Cuban government in the assassination.  In that case, it wouldn't matter how many men were observed in the TSBD, or who witnessed "Lee Harvey" Oswald running right out the front door into a car driven by another man.  It was only decided, after the fact, that the lie would be lone assassin.

Hi Paul...  you may be interested in Peter Dale Scott's Phase 1/2 theory of the assassination whereby you are dead-on...

Cuba/Russia are the desired targets for the JCS, CIA, FBI, etc.... and so much evidence is created initially to point in that direction...

Taking the Alvarado case as the perfect example... A Cuban pays Oswald to kill Kennedy - his story... (and classic DA Phillips SOP)

But then everything changes.... and he MUST recant the story since LHO was a Lone Nut, unconnected with anyone or anything....

"After a LONG INTERROGATION - HE CONFESSED...."

(edit:  btw his MOTIVE is also exactly what was desired for Phase 1) Hunt and/or Phillips couldn't have said it better themselves...)

(Thanks Bart)...