David Josephs

58 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

But, it is a simple choice really. You can believe that the documentation of LHO in the Marines and the tax records.

Copies of copies provided by the FBI who kept each and every original document....

So yeah WTP... those without a desperate need to cover their a$$es and gain NOTHING by telling a conflicting truth about Oswald...

... or Hoover's good ole FBI... ever read anything by Swearingen?  https://www.amazon.com/FBI-Secrets-M-Wesley-Swearingen/dp/0896085015 

May give you some idea to what extent the fabricated evidence extends....  Agents would simply make up informants and meetings with them to show they worked overtime...

It always appears to be the case that critics like yourself use the FBI to SUPPORT your conclusions... when each and every item of so called "evidence" cannot be authenticated... cannot be made into acceptable REAL EVIDENCE...

So yeah WTP - I take the word of those with little to gain and everything to lose over the FBI in 1963/4....

If this case teaches you anything, it's that Hoover's FBI was terribly corrupt and made in his own image....  sorry that continues to elude you.  

13 minutes ago, Stephen Lavin said:

Has anyone made such a study on the photos that have been presented as L.H.O over the years? 

October 1951 on the left.... Aug 1953 on the right... 6 inches shorter and 20 lbs lighter, almost 2 years into puberty....
Boys get shorter and lighter ??

  I hope this addresses some of your concerns Stephen

The above composite shows the marine induction image and the arrest in Nov 63

These two images are taken a week apart....

The above 1959 passport photo and 1963 Harvey

Here are "impersonators" and "look a-likes" as opposed to "duplicity"

If you can explain how this is even possible - many here would like to here a better explanation...

How can these be the same man?  how can the image on the right - his official military induction photo - be real?  a 13 inch head?

4 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Armstrong's theories regarding McBride have been debunked for all but the H&L hardliners:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/palmer-mcbride.html

While lurkers are on my site, please click "sitemap" and scroll down for 27 articles that debunk various H*L theories.

Believe what you like WTP....  let's see... would the FBI or Mr. McBride be more likely to lie about Oswald during this time....

(btw - you might want to read a bit more about what Ely did... and why it had to be "altered"

41 minutes ago, Stephen Lavin said:

Hope this helps.

Best wishes

Stephen 

It does Stephen and as you can probably tell by now... I've read (and heard) many, MANY responses similar to yours.

I'd like to differentiate between "Impersonation" and "evidence of duplicity".

In south Texas during the time the CIA puts him in Mexico and the FBI sends him to Dallas we have sightings of Oswald and small family... impersonation
Signatures in guest books - impersonation

Now I know you feel this started in the military - as I researched the school records for the early years of Oswald's life (which is FUBAR by Marge, Robert and John Edward) I found the complete Tarrant county school records for every area...  in June 1948 MARGE EKDAHL divorces Edwin yet during the entire school year ending in June 1948 she is listed as Marguerite Oswald AND there is no LEE OSWALD... only HARVEY and the never-been-found-who-the-heck-is-that NANCY LEE...

3 months later in Sept 1948 HARVEY has the needed 7-9-39 birthdate (which supposedly got him into 1st grade, he'll be 9 years old in Oct '48... 3rd grade
His mother is now DIVORCED (with a claim that the divorce decree asks to reinstate her OSWALD name - it doesn't) yet her name is back to the pre 1948 EKDAHL...
and NANCY LEE is crossed out but has a 10-19-39 birthdate.  She is 1 year younger than HARVEY born 1 day after he was yet is not listed anywhere but on the pages of the TARRANT COUNTY school children records... (and yes I went thru every one of the 3500 pages in this book to be sure he wasn't listed anywhere else)

These two boys are not the same:  on the left 12 year old LEE in 6th grade 5'4" 115lbs Oct 1951  /   on the right is HARVEY at the end of 7th grade-Aug 1953 almost 2 years later and he's 6 inches shorter and 20 lbs lighter... "duplicity"

Read John Edward Pic's testimony... FWIW

One man being 5'9" and 135 lbs while the other is 5'11" and 160 is "evidence of duplicity"
When you compare the teeth of the exhumed Oswald to the teeth of the Oswald in the Marines, miraculously 3 adult teeth have fully and completely grown back - "duplicity"
When the WCR biographer John Ely compiles Oswald's life and finds not only conflicts but scores of people who served with HARVEY in Santa Ana and is not aware of ANY of those in El Toro serving with Lee - "duplicity"
When Asst Provo Marshall Gorsky reaffirms Ely's info - that Lee was at El Toro / Harvey Santa Ana and that LEE is released in March 1959, not Sept... that DC gets his files and we get the testimony of Mrs. Steenbarger (a military wife and her son) putting LEE OSWALD on a plane to France at the exact same time Harvey Oswald is on a boat, also to France on his way to Moscow....

Stephen, there is really so much more... the military is but one such series of examples of the "duplicity"....

So if okay with you, can we differentiate them when discussing the evidence....  there are a number of people LOOKING like Oswald... none of them caused duplicity like this:

Peace... DJ

58 minutes ago, Stephen Lavin said:

In brief, I would appeal to posters not to be so rude to others, accept the limitations of your evidence and in doing so, not appear to be so dogmatic and paranoid. 

I believe this would make the debates here more informative and interesting and encourage other to become involved in research and discussion.

Excellent point Stephen and welcome to posting on the forum...  something you might consider though...

Most of those who jump into the H&L detail attack have never read the book.... have never seen the CD with hundreds of images and documents... or have gone to the Baylor Archives to look at John's notebooks themselves.

Believe it or not... everything is NOT available online...  only as more and more people scan and post  and/or donate to some level of archiving will we scratch the surface.

I spent almost 2 years going page by page with John Armstrong... running down the footnotes, digging up the notebooks as well as copies of things not even in those...
We did not agree on 100% of what we discussed... the point John (and Jim) are trying to make is that it's the DISCUSSION that makes progress on the subject....

John wrote that it was LEE going to Mexico... this was back in late 1990's....  when I dove into that trip and discovered it was not LEE in Mexico City... we continued to discuss and keep an open mind to the possibility it was not Lee.   but that did not discount the hundreds of other items of evidence which tells the H&L story...

What burns me the most about the attackers is they attack John as if it is he who put the evidence in the record, in the archives....
John never told Palmer McBride to rebuke Lifton for calling him a xxxx...or for telling his story in the first place.

When he did th3e checking he finds that Oswald did in fact work in New Orleans in late 1957 into early 1958 at Pfisterer's where he and McBride discuss Sputnik which is not known to the US until October 1957....

Military records have Oswald in Japan at the time....

So yes... please make up your own mind but at least do the homework.... the harveyandlee.net website has the most current data...

Saying there was no H&L is akin to repeating FDR was not aware of the impending Pearl Harbor attack...  it was a lie so big it simply couldn't be told... until it was found out.

I wish you luck with your search...  your thoughts on the subject would also be welcome...

DJ

1 minute ago, John Butler said:

Why change these features with a mask?

John... if this is about when I think it is... HARVEY was in New Orleans at Pfisterer's with Palmer McBride.

But would soon be in Japan... when Lee goes back to California (El Toro not Santa Ana)

Pretty sure the idea was to simply not have anything identifiable with Lee Oswald, especially in 1958 which would have to be around the time planning for the "Defector" program begins.

FWIW

6 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

This is the question I asked, and which Jim has avoided answering: what are the specific facial features which allow us to distinguish the fictional characters 'Harvey' and 'Lee'?

Sir - you aint gonna learn what you don't wanna know...  so why do you keep asking as if an answer would satisfy you rather than it look like pouring gasoline on your cute little flames?

"Fictional Characters" ??  How does this not appear as if you've already made up your mind JB?  You ask questions as if sincerely curious... but lo and behold -
You're not in the least...  you simply want more gasoline to stoke the flaming....    

So JB - if you're not going to discuss these points with some level of respect and decency, blocking your posts is easily done.  You've added nothing to these threads except for the same BS flaming we see everywhere the uninformed attack H&L.  You going to be an adult or you going to continue whining and stomping your feet cause you'd rather curse darkness than light a candle....

And you're not even that good at it...    So how about stop asking poorly worded tautological questions and have a meaningful discussion...

The left eyebrow on both men is very similar... by sizing the eyebrow and the eyes to match exactly we can begin to see the differences - all you need do JB is open your eyes...

Ears are different heights; shoulders on LEE slope heavily; HARVEY has a much more defined chin; the mouth is not in the same place.... Harvey's nose bends to his left, LEE is more centered even leaning to his right; (btw - that photo at far right is THE LAST ONE of Lee we know of...

And we needn't be focused on FACIAL differences.... try these on for size
Lee was 5'11" and pushing 160 lbs
Harvey was 5'9 and barely 140 lbs

Lee had a gunshot wound near the left elbow, a mastoid scar behind his LEFT EAR... Harvey's autopsy mentions a "3/4 inch scratch" at the end of the "right" mastoid... not left
BTW - he goes from being 5'11" (71 inches) when he exits the Marines yet SHRINKS to 5'9" by the time he's 24?? 

We've gone over the teeth already... but here's the image so you can remember JB:  Marine exam on top clipart, 1981 exam results on bottom...
Sure is nice when 3 molars grow back - right! 

John Pic - his half brother - correctly chose his brother over HARVEY from the LIFE Photos - every time.

Mr. JENNER - I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your attention first to the lower lefthand spread at .the bottom of the page. Do you recognize the area shown there?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother?
Mr. PIC - This one here with the arrow.
Mr. JENNER - The one that has the printed arrow?
Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And you recognize that as your brother?
Mr. PIC - Because they say so, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Please, I don't want you to say--
Mr. PIC - No; I couldn't recognize that.
Mr. JENNER - Because this magazine says that it is.
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture.
Mr. JENNER - You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee.
Mr. PIC - No, sir.

When our man OZZIE gets to Helsinki he stays in the same high end hotels as past CIA operatives...  and even there the signatures don't match - kinda like they don't match on the Cuban Application from Mexico City.  Plus we have evidence of our 2 Oswalds traveling to Europe by difference means and arriving at different places....  which may explain the mix-up with London and having the airport stamp in LEE's Passport book.

6 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said:

I'm very interested in reading that discussion of the alleged Oswald's trip to Mexico.

I tried to stay away from the CI Op you and Bill do such a great job dissecting and explaining.... by focusing on the one thing that bothered me most:

This is from the Lopez Report and I find it par for the HSCA course that they concur with a part of the WCR which takes over 1500 documents to hide the fact he didn't make the trip to Mexico City... he was elsewhere doing his FBI job.

I wrote this out a number of years ago now...  LITAMIL-9&7 evidence released in 2017 helps confirm it (doc excerpt below)...  I show - for example - that while the FBI tries Flecha Rojas and Anahuac to get Ozzie from Monterrey to Mexico City... the evidence shows plainly that their witnesses where not on the same buses as their subject.  This happens throughout the trip.
I hope the info is still applicable and helpful to you...  DJ

The Mexico City Trip

• Part 1 - The Summer leading up to Sept 24th 

• Part 2 - The Trip Down, Part 1

• Part 3 - The Trip Down, Part 2

• Part 4 - Leaving Mexico, Part 1

• Part 5 - Leaving Mexico, Part 2

• Part 6 - Who Knew What and When - not entirely complete... a chrono look at the events.  Send me your email I can send you the PPTs which show more of the evidence....

I like how they call DURAN's time with Mexican Police a "performance"...

13 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Why did no 1959 newspaper in the Dallas/Fort Worth area print a recognizable picture of “Lee Harvey Oswald”?

Jim... I am fairly sure that at least one part of that composite image was taken in Moscow... at Snyder's office maybe?

7 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Joseph, the composite you posted in the other thread that was found in Marguerite's possession was obviously a composite but what is it in the photo you posted that would indicate it's a composite?

The top image... yet even more interesting to me is the newspaper image Jim posted coming in Pricilla Johnson's article...

So below is the best version of that photo I've seen - no blocked out background....

Years ago I was sent this...  Not sure how much more obvious an alteration can be.... 

Below left and bottom right both have that grey blob behind them... and I believe enabled the alterations...

Jim - This photo has to be from about 1958. early.  The question is when Pricilla submits her story she does so without photos from Russia?  So someone at NANA provides this photo AFTER it's been changed....  (it's right about this time that HARVEY is with McBride at Pfisterer's)

46 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

NANA was created by a senior veteran of OSS, Ernest Cuneo, and continued to have intelligence connections

 Military intelligence again?  

And just like so many CIA men... he was Army Intel thru and thru...

"Business address: MB-870, Pentagon"

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Similarly, page 4-B of the 11/19/59 edition of the Charleston, SC News and Courier published this short piece with an even clearer image of Oswald.

So here is the "composite" shot and the newspaper image....  how come his ties are always skewed to one side?

I had to "fatten" up the image on the right to match... but it's the same photo.

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 3:05 AM, Anthony Mugan said:

David:

Thank you...that's a very interesting document. It looks like Bakulin was testing out LINEB-1. In terms of the documentary record what is curious is that references to targeting him for defection, or preparations for that, seem to stop after 20th July. Other documentation on him continues but there isn't anything where someone senior closes down the plan to induce him to defect. On the 20th July they are looking at potential access assets (and there is the link someone has shared above to a request of Provisional Operation Approval for one the candidates for this after that date), but then...its all just information on him rather than the actual REDCAP operation. I get the feeling there are gaps in the documentary record here

Thanks Anthony - understood....  I guess I'd like to hear more peer support of our Oswald NOT having been there...  In fact, despite the stories offered - I am still not 100% convinced ANYONE was there for the Cubans/Mexicans to have reported upon... (like the ALVARADO STORY - it simply never happened...)  I'm actually sitting down now to write an update to the Mexico City trip charade...  (the actual purpose of the tapes and different correspondence is nicely addressed by you and Bill... I try to stay focused on what should be the easiest part of the charade... the trip itself...  send an imposter and leave breadcrumbs...buy a 4-part round trip bus ticket to Mexico City for example... but we get the exact opposite....

The FBI et al goes thru an awful lot to fabricate evidence of this trip...  'cept the lightest wind blows away the masking and we find each and every stop and/or section of this trip to be FUBAR in every aspect of the saying.....

------

I'm curious....   If Oswald was actually there - why do none of the contemporaneously written reports mention it?
(kinda like no one mentioning the rifle until AFTER 11/22)

We listened to the Soviet Embassy (LIENVOY), compound and the homes of many of Soviet people of interest (LIFEAT) ....  you'd think some of the soviets would say something of the crazy American barging in on a Saturday....

In the monthly reports for both these operation for the months of Sept and Oct 1963 not a single word is uttered about a "Harvey Oswald Lee; Lee, Harvey Oswald;
O. H. LEE, or any iteration there of. 

There are the contemporaneous reports dated October 8 and November 7 1963...

The Sept 27 and 28th visits would/should have been mentioned as LEADS in the October 8th Summary... it is not
The Nov 7th Summary report - which by then would have had full knowledge of who and what occurred from Sept 27 thru Oct 3rd only mentions

"a contact by an English-speaking man with the Soviet Embassy..."

The November Summary report is not dated until January 7 1964....

Here is an example of the July LIENVOY report and what happens when an English-speaker is found... (on Sept 27th the caller spoke Spanish, not English)

105-3702-216 is a report from SA FERRIS claiming that TERESA PROENZA says Oswald spoke English to her FIRST - and then she turned him over to a superior who did speak English..
FWIW - AZCUE claims the staff held morning meetings from 9-11 am....  first call is supposedly at 10:37am...

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Who's Steve?  I thought Stephanie might be legit?

   whoa my bad.... yes Stephanie.... maybe overactive autocorrect?  
 

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Richard,

Thank you.

You're right.

Steve Thomas

I did indeed read it wrong... sorry and thanks for the correction

DJ

56 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

Now that is very, very weird.

I mean, that's not even humanly possible is it?

Steve Thomas

Unless some other agency was footing the bill ???

And you'd think since this application was the beginning of an interview process - they would have seen and caught that....

(He answered "no" to all Q's in PART 1 btw)

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10215-10016.pdf

"There is no further record of any operation to target Bakulin after the 20^th July memo discussing the possible use of various assets for this purpose."

Hey there Anthony -

I've done a bit of work on Mexico and am very interested in your work (although I still am not sure if an Oswald of any kind showed up in Mexico at the embassies there)

Above is a link from the recently released docs from Aug 1963 and it includes mention of BAKULIN going to San Diego?

I hope the follow helps in some way.... DJ

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10215-10017.pdf

this is an Aug 2 1963 CIA note asking if SUBJECT BAKULIN is to be developed - and seems to have been given a 201- number

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10215-10266.pdf

This one says BAKULIN was known as OXBLOOD

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10215-10018.pdf

The July 20 1963 memo from CIA discussing what BAKULIN did and some of those running in his circles... still redacted though...

Just got this document from Bart.... it's Lee's application to the Marine's...

We all have heard how Oswald was sending some portion of his paycheck to his mother - Zack Stout (Lee's best friend in Japan) said he "had less, not more, than the rest"...

yet was still able to go to the QUEEN BEE, have a Japanese girlfriend and seem to spend significant amounts of money moving around Japan.

How exactly does a marine get by giving 100% of his pay to his mother?

Unless he is being cared for by others....

33 minutes ago, John Butler said:

David,

The FBI doc confirms what we had talked about earlier concerning the rank differences between the two Oswalds in the fall of 1956.  This rank difference and discharge date suggests strongly.that Lee Oswald entered the Marines at least 6-8 moths earlier than Harvey.  That would have made him 16 when he entered the Corps.

Or was simply discharged earlier and became a spook???  just a thought.  

Gorsky specifically stating that the man's records were sent to DC.... in March 1959.... 

Allen GRAF says he was Oswald's platoon sergeant at EL TORO (not the same place as the Airbase in Santa Ana) for 6-8 months... John ELY was to write Oswald's biography yet repeatedly he comes in contact with men who know HARVEY but those who know LEE are unfamiliar - Rankin and Jenner knew they needed to do something about it...

I doubt Allen is talking about 1957 at El Toro for 2 months just prior to going to the Far East....  the 12-22-58 - 9-4-59 must have been HARVEY which is yet another example of how 2 men were combined into one record....  we're not sure what LEE did until October 1959 yet we have the interview of MRS STEENBARGE and her son...

6 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

If the claim is that they were merely similar, it should be easy to tell which is which by looking at the photographic record and identifying which facial features belonged to each of the fictional characters. As far as I'm aware, no 'Harvey and Lee' believer has yet assembled a definitive list of which character had which facial features.

the last photo of LEE we have is in 1959...   here is a few comparisons - HARVEY has more squared shoulders and is 2-3 inches shorter as well as 20-40 lbs lighter...

HARVEY also had all is teeth while LEE had his molars as well as a couple other teeth removed as detailed in his military record who show him with only 2 molars per side instead of the three in the exhumed Oswald's mouth... (can you follow this TRACY or do you need a dentist to explain the difference between 2 MOLARS and 3 MOLARS )

Now JB - I truly do not wish to engage in an argument with you.... Robert Oswald claimed to have taken this photo in AUG 1953 - after 7th grade, the inset is of the 5'4" 115lb 6th grader before he moved to NYC.  Pretty amazing that both as a boy and a man LEE is demonstrably larger and with a different demeanor completely.

Not sure how you can argue with your own eyes....  you do see the 3 molars in 1981 vs 2 molars in the 1957 records?

Even more interesting is how we NEVER see Lee's teeth - every image of them is altered or simply so poor as to not reveal any detail.

The nose is obviously very different.... the sheer size of arms and neck in opposing photos is also obvious... what isn't obvious, until you put them side by side, is how the Oswald MARINE entry photo is complete BS....  Can you explain how the image on the right - with the 13" head - can be real, if the one on the left is also?

56 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

If we assume for a moment that David Joseph is right and Oswald did not go to Mexico (at least under the guise of the official story we have been give), then we have to ask, where was he?

He was traveling with 2 men thru Austin to Dallas...arriving there on the 26th.  (he went to the TEC in Dallas on the 26th and 3rd of Oct)

McCluskey said that when he interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald a week later, on October 3, Oswald requested that McCluskey change his address from
P O Box 30061 in New Orleans to 2515 W. 5th Street in Irving, Texas on the Interstate Claims Card. McCluskey remembered that Oswald also asked him to include a post office box number on the card, which he handwrote on the top of the card.

<snip>

McCluskey told Jenner that Oswald's presence in the Dallas TEC Claims Office on September 25-26 and Oct 3 could be verified by reviewing Oswald's Interstate Claims Card..

Here's the bottom of that card....

The FBI was not going to let ODIO ruin their CYA in Mexico City....

She and her sister couldn't have been more sure it was Oswald... especially after the follow-up call giving her the "crazy gringo's" details....

"On or about" - that the FBI fixates on WED the 25th is expected, allows them to add the necessary doubt about it being Oswald....

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

The reason I ask is that I can't remember any other photos of Oswald where he is wearing a suit and tie.

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

Do you have any idea when and where and under what conditions that passport photo was taken?

The reason I ask is that I can't remember any other photos of Oswald where he is wearing a suit and tie.

He was a sheet metal worker for most of his life, and a suit and tie look kind of out of place.

 

Steve Thomas

No Steve, I don't.  I've just been thru a number of different sources and found nothing about the provenance of that photo... but I did notice a few things:

• Who writes their own name on a photo to be used in a passport - that has his name?
• There appears to be a round seal of some sort which extends across the image's face, shirt and left shoulder area
• On all three versions of this image I can find (app, passport book and an alternate I can't find a source for) they ALL have a fold line across the eyes
• 2 of the versions show markedly different head shapes (big brain version on left, normal on right)
• the DoD card used as ID for a Sept 9th passport was not issued until Sept 11th
• The bottom image shows photos supposedly taken 1 week apart....   yet we have this statement about LEE claiming he was discharged in MARCH 1959...
  Seems more likely to me THAT was when the photo was taken..
   
• Zack Stout who was with LEE in Atsugi while Harvey worked with McBride at Pfisterer in New Orleans claimed he was a decent radar operator.  I've only just today sent a note to John asking about the discrepancy...   the only thing I can think of is that his job classification was a cover for his work with the U-2... but IDK.
  
  

Yeah...  I really don't feel like going to your blog from 3 years ago to find your "truth"

Larsen and I showed how the teeth don't match - scientific proof again....

So how about just telling us what you're referring to here WTP...

Which evidence pulls you off your 100% surety there was no H&L

Thanks

Sure does look like him though.... no?

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

One of the KOPY witnesses, Stewart, I think, indicated this Oswald said he just got back from Mexico, which seems significant in trying to figure this out. 

Phillips had yet to arrive in Mexico - I think it very possible he brings the tapes with him...

I think we can feel pretty sure Oswald did not actually go to Mexico....

So other than these ALICE Oswald's working for Phillips within this charade,,, how do these impostors know about Mexico City before the FBI, STATE or NAVY
when informed by the CIA on the 10th?