Thomas Graves

Chris, I like that idea! -- Tommy

Didn't she marry some guy who also met LHO in Dallas, and aren't they now living in Washington State or the Vancouver Island area? And isn't he a lawyer? Or am I thinking of someone else? -- Tommy

Dear Paul, I think some JFK assassination "researchers" and "authors" try really, really hard to convince others that Nosenko was a real-deal defector simply because he completely exonerated the Ruskies in the assassination of JFK. I mean, I mean, I mean ... Isn't that called an "agenda-driven" approach to "research" and "writing"? -- Tommy

I'm still trying to figure out how they put an over-sized Mary Tyler Moore head on an undersized Prayer Man. -- Tommy

Tommy, The link that you provided leads to a few pages in a book entitled, The Missing Chapter: Lee Harvey Oswald in the Far East (2008) by Jack R. Swike. The upshot of these pages is that Swike could not find any connection between LHO and Roscoe White in his "research." There was nothing to indicate how intensive or extensive his "research" may have been. He's just sharing his opinion -- which is fine -- but there's nothing scientific or particularly academic about it. It's just his opinion based on a cursory survey. The urgent matter is how to explain the BYP in the possession of Geneva White -- Roscoe's wife. Nobody seems to bother with that. As for that sensational screed from the National Enquirer or some other rag of a supermarket tabloid, you have shared a silly story that simply inserts the CIA into the Roscoe White saga -- just like most CIA-did-it CTers insert the CIA into every crevice they can find. It's useless nonsense. No -- these flimsy accounts don't amount to anything. We need something solid. We had Ricky White -- the son of Roscoe White -- and we had Geneva White-Dees, his former wife, and they provided some solid clues for us. Then we dismissed them. That was a mistake, IMHO. Unless somebody can produce something of some substance -- on the order of Jack White's photographs -- then we are little better off than we were in 1990. At least we have Jeff Caufield today. By the way -- is that a lump on Roscoe White's right wrist? The photo is so blurry one can hardly tell... Regards, --Paul Trejo Dearest Paul, Two points: 1 ) FWIW, Larry Hancock thinks highly of Swike's book. 2 ) The only reason I posted the page from the supermarket tabloid, Globe Magazine, is because it has the only photo I can find that shows Roscoe's right wrist. So far. BTW, It's fascinating the way you phrase your question, "Its that a lump on Roscoe's right wrist?" Is what a lump on his wrist, Paul? LOL -- Tommy

Dear Paul, I think you should do some "research" (by using Google Search, putting quotation marks around syntactically-correct phrases, hitting F and ctrl simultaneously to highlight what you're looking for in the text, etc) and really look into Deryabin. I have, and I must say that he looks like "the real deal" to me. Don't be against him just because he thought Marina was a spy. And that Nosenko was one, too, for that matter. -- Tommy

He was also convinced that if Marina wasn't KGB before she met Oswald, that she was by day two after she met him. Chris, If true (and I have no reason to think that it isn't), then it sounds like the KGB made Marina an offer she couldn't refuse. -- Tommy

Tommy, Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm now convinced that David Morales was Neck Scratcher -- and I admit I put up a lot of resistance to the idea, and that my resistance didn't hold up. I don't remember if I conceded so directly back then. Secondly, I appreciate the link to David B. Perry's 1991 (?) article on Roscoe White and Atsugi. Like so many witnesses who have suggested data to support a Walker-did-it CT, Ricky White was unsophisticated and not rigorous with the details. I would also name Harry Dean in this context, as well as Ron Lewis. Minor exaggerations played some role in their accounts, partly to gain an audience, and partly because they took so much heat from the "canon" authorities. I remember one "canon" great -- Harold Weisberg -- hammering on Ricky White. This professorial old man and this blue-collar young man -- it was an unequal battle -- until Harold Weisberg shot at Ricky (paraphrasing): "How can you dare to bring up evidence that was never in the Warren Report?" But that was a poor move, because Harold himself had been one of the severest critics of the Warren Report in history. So, Ricky just said, "Well, if the Warren Report is your authority, then there's nothing more I can say." Poor Weisberg saw his error at that moment. Anyway, back to David Perry's article. What is most interesting is that he discovered that LHO and Roscoe White had indeed embarked for Japan on the USS Bexar on August 21, 1957, leaving San Diego and arriving at Yokosuka, Japan on September 12, 1957. Both LHO and Roscoe White were part of Marine Wing 1. Now -- perhaps it was an exaggeration for Ricky White to say that they "served together," but that could be a matter of semantics. As for the photograph of Roscoe White in the Marines that Ricky refers to, I find it difficult to doubt that a son would not recognize his own father -- given any disagreement about the identity of the people in the photograph. Even given that Oswald and White had different units and different tracks -- that does not in any way prove that they never met. Yet that is what David Perry implies. What he misses is this -- why do people make relationships? Is it only on the basis of proximity? Not at all. Also, unless Perry can trace every move made by every member of their two units, then he cannot dismiss the possibility that the two men met at some point. Why? What did they have in common? The answer (judging from Jeff Caufield's work) is POLITICS. They were both strident Anticommunists. That was one good reason to have a beer together. Now -- the clincher, as I said -- wasn't that Roscoe White was in Japan at the same time that LHO was there, but rather the uncanny fact that Geneva White had a separate and a THIRD picture of the BYP in her possession. That has to be explained somehow, and David Perry didn't address it in that link, Tommy. Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul. I'm not talking about whether or not LHO and Roscoe ever met while they were in the Marines. I'm not even talking about the photo of a group of Marines sitting on the ground with LHO (waiting, apparently, to board a ship), in which photo Roscoe White is allegedly in the background with the bill of his cap pulled down over his face. What I am saying is that there's no proof that White and LHO were at Atsugi, Taiwan, or Cubi Point together. And, much more importantly, I'm questioning whether or not the Marine who happens to have a big bump on his right wrist and who happens to facially resemble Roscoe White in a photograph that was apparently taken at Atsugi, Taiwan, or Cubi Point really was Roscoe White. -- Tommy edited and augmented https://books.google.com/books?id=64ji-mF2oaAC&pg=PA32&dq=%22cubi+point%22+oswald&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1P7tyOPPAhUn04MKHbc3CykQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=%22cubi%20point%22%20oswald&f=false "Cop Killed JFK -- On Orders From CIA Globe August 28, 1990"

Dear Paul, What if he had said, "It's very unlikely that Marina is a spy." Would you still disbelieve him? How do you choose whom to believe in a situation like this? Should we automatically disbelieve all KGB defectors? Do you think Deryabin asks any valid questions at all about Marina? Did you know that the KGB tried to kill him when he was living in Canada? http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/31/world/peter-deriabin-71-a-moscow-defector-who-joined-cia.html -- Tommy

Dear Paul, "Dreamed up"? -- Tommy

Chris, Yep. Twenty-nine questions. Hmm. That's a disconcertingly high number of questions, given the context. No wonder Hosty thought she was nash. -- Tommy

Ahoj!, Děkuji mnohokrát. Poté, co žije v České republice po dobu sedmi let (v Brně), myslím, že máte pravdu. -- Tommy PS Let us not forget that one of the members of INTERPEN was named Edmund Kolby, and also that the CIA had a cover company called Double-Chek Corporation! Hello Tommy, noted. I keep writing in English so that all forum members understand me. Please drop me a PM for a chat. Dear Andrej, Never mind. The English-to-Czech automatic translation website is too laborious for me to use for anything longer than two or three sentences. I'll translate it back into English for everyone: "Hello! Thank you very much. Since I lived in the Czech Republic for seven years (in Brno), I think you're right." -- Tommy

Excellent questions, all. I wonder if any of them were ever answered. Why do I keep hearing "96 Tears" all of a sudden? Why? Why? Why? Must be the 29 questions. And the sunglasses! -- Tommy

Tommy, Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm now convinced that David Morales was Neck Scratcher -- and I admit I put up a lot of resistance to the idea, and that my resistance didn't hold up. I don't remember if I conceded so directly back then. Secondly, I appreciate the link to David B. Perry's 1991 (?) article on Roscoe White and Atsugi. Like so many witnesses who have suggested data to support a Walker-did-it CT, Ricky White was unsophisticated and not rigorous with the details. I would also name Harry Dean in this context, as well as Ron Lewis. Minor exaggerations played some role in their accounts, partly to gain an audience, and partly because they took so much heat from the "canon" authorities. I remember one "canon" great -- Harold Weisberg -- hammering on Ricky White. This professorial old man and this blue-collar young man -- it was an unequal battle -- until Harold Weisberg shot at Ricky (paraphrasing): "How can you dare to bring up evidence that was never in the Warren Report?" But that was a poor move, because Harold himself had been one of the severest critics of the Warren Report in history. So, Ricky just said, "Well, if the Warren Report is your authority, then there's nothing more I can say." Poor Weisberg saw his error at that moment. Anyway, back to David Perry's article. What is most interesting is that he discovered that LHO and Roscoe White had indeed embarked for Japan on the USS Bexar on August 21, 1957, leaving San Diego and arriving at Yokosuka, Japan on September 12, 1957. Both LHO and Roscoe White were part of Marine Wing 1. Now -- perhaps it was an exaggeration for Ricky White to say that they "served together," but that could be a matter of semantics. As for the photograph of Roscoe White in the Marines that Ricky refers to, I find it difficult to doubt that a son would not recognize his own father -- given any disagreement about the identity of the people in the photograph. Even given that Oswald and White had different units and different tracks -- that does not in any way prove that they never met. Yet that is what David Perry implies. What he misses is this -- why do people make relationships? Is it only on the basis of proximity? Not at all. Also, unless Perry can trace every move made by every member of their two units, then he cannot dismiss the possibility that the two men met at some point. Why? What did they have in common? The answer (judging from Jeff Caufield's work) is POLITICS. They were both strident Anticommunists. That was one good reason to have a beer together. Now -- the clincher, as I said -- wasn't that Roscoe White was in Japan at the same time that LHO was there, but rather the uncanny fact that Geneva White had a separate and a THIRD picture of the BYP in her possession. That has to be explained somehow, and David Perry didn't address it in that link, Tommy. Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul. I'm not talking about whether or not LHO and Roscoe ever met while they were in the Marines. I'm not even talking about the photo of a group of Marines sitting on the ground with LHO (waiting, apparently, to board a ship), in which photo Roscoe White is allegedly in the background with the bill of his cap pulled down over his face. What I am saying is that there's no proof that White and LHO were at Atsugi together. And, much more importantly, I'm questioning whether or not the Marine who happens to have a big bump on his right wrist and who happens to facially resemble Roscoe White in a photograph that was apparently taken at Atsugi really was Roscoe White. -- Tommy

Ahoj!, Děkuji mnohokrát. Poté, co žije v České republice po dobu sedmi let (v Brně), myslím, že máte pravdu. -- Tommy PS Let us not forget that one of the members of INTERPEN was named Edmund Kolby, and also that the CIA had a cover company called Double-Chek Corporation!

Well for starters at the bottom of the page (pg.6) it suggests that during the war (1944) Capt. P had at least 3 missions in the U.S. In 1960 and 1961 he was part of the Soviet Trade Delegation in the UK and Ghana as a TDY. Note that the apartment complex that he lived in was only for MVD. Ah ha. I guess I was looking at pages 5, 6, and 7 of a different, but long, CIA file. And my confusion was compounded by the fact that you were talking about Captain Printsev, while silly old me was still thinking about Marina's uncle, Colonel Prusakov ! My bad. Totally. I should have noticed the "Capt." you wrote and realized you weren't talking about the Colonel, et al., at all. Goes to show that even lowly "2-star" members of this club can make a horrendous mistake from time to time. -- Tommy

Ma Tommy, No, I have no further photographic evidence, myself. As for that photograph that Jack White shared, it is very blurry. It is hard to tell from that blurry photo the exact size of the ears and chin. Yet, Jack White added some history -- and he did not publicize where he got this history. Jack White said that "Roscoe White broke his wrist, and it never healed properly." He didn't say that like a guess -- but like a historical fact. He did not give the source of this fact. This is why I have always asked -- I still want to know -- is it possible that Jack White was related by blood to Roscoe White? How else would he know about the unhealed break in Roscoe's right wrist? As for further material evidence -- the fact that Geveva White-Dees had her own, unique copy of the BYP is the clincher, IMHO. That is impossible unless Roscoe White was more deeply involved in the BYP than anybody ever noticed until Jack White's breakthrough work. Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Regarding that "blurry" photograph, I remember I had one heck of a time convincing you that "Neck Scratcher" had dark-complected skin. I was so exhausted after that that I didn't even try to prove to you that NS had a camera strap around his neck. At least Sandy Larsen has a sufficiently open mind (and sufficiently good eyesight) to see that the Marine's ears are significantly larger than Roscoe's, and, I think, that he has a wider chin than him, too. Maybe Jack just assumed that it HAD to be Roscoe in the BYP, because, well ... because the Marine in the photo (that was developed and printed in May of 1959) did kinda resemble Roscoe and DID have a bump on his right wrist, and the photo MIGHT have been taken at Atsugi about a half-year earlier, and, even though there is no official documentation that LHO and Roscoe were at Atsugi at the same time (or that Roscoe was ever there, for that matter), well .... it just fit so WELL in Jack's assassination theory. You might find the following interesting. Warning: It's from the (gasp) Dave Perry website. Go to the article and, to save time, press "F" and "ctrl" at the same time and type in the word "Atsugi." http://dperry1943.com/roscoew.html -- Tommy PS I would like to believe that it's Roscoe in the BYP's, but I guess I'm just a skeptic (bein' a dead-center Virgo male and all) and, well ... I need to be convinced and it just ain't happened yet. Please do let us know what you come up with.

Dear Jim, For your information, Russians are a Slavic people. As are Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians, etc. But not Hungarians like your "Harvey." Hungarian is a non-Indo-European language, a language not unlike that spoken by Attila the Hun. A language originally from Central Asia. -- Tommy

Dear Paul, The interesting thing in the CIA document that Chris pointed out is that Marina listed her other uncle, but but didn't mention the Prusakovs (with whom she was living), in her application for a U.S. visa. Possible benign explanation: She was afraid she'd be refused if she did? -- Tommy

Chris, Perhaps Ray Baby should have finished the sentence by writing, "... for the purposes of investigating possible Mafia / CIA connections of the man who killed Marina Oswald's husband in Dallas, Texas, on November 24, 1963." -- Tommy

Good one. Did you see page 6? Capt. P may have an intel background. Just a coincidence. Chris, Not sure which page you are referring to. For purposes of identification, what is it exactly that "jumps out at you" on that page? Her uncle Prusakov was a colonel in the MVD, i.e. Secret Police. (MVD was known as NKVD before 1946.) Probably played volleyball with Kostikov back in the day. (lol) -- Tommy

Michael, I agree with everything you've said here. We don't need the original BYP to be part of the JFK Killers' conspiracy to make it fit snugly into the JFK Killers' conspiracy at a later date. Here's my speculation -- since we're fairly confident that the body-double of the BYP belongs to Roscoe White, and that Roscoe White was a zealous Anticommunist -- then (based on Jeff Caufield's 2015 work) we have some justification to link Roscoe White with the radical rightist, General Walker there in Dallas. Now, we know for a fact that Roscoe's wife Geneva had a separate, third BYP in her possession. This makes sense since Roscoe himself was part of the creation of the BYP. Therefore -- to get to the point -- it seems clear to me that after LHO tried and failed to assassinate General Walker on April 10, 1963, that Roscoe White himself would take his BYP and show it to General Walker before April was over. This is why Walker said that he had certain knowledge that LHO was his shooter "only a few days after" the shooting. Yes, this contradicts what Walker told the WC, but here it is with his signature: http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf So, it's possible that General Walker saw this photo of the BYP in April 1963, and then decided at that point that he was going to use this very photograph to frame LHO for some crime -- just to get revenge for the Walker shooting. That ties it up with a silver bow, IMHO. Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Are you sure that Roscoe White had bump on his right wrist like that? Do you have any evidence of that, other than the photograph of a Marine who kinda looked like Roscoe but had smaller larger ears and a wider chin than him? -- Tommy

The plot thickens. -- Tommy https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111200 -- Tommy

The plot thickens. -- Tommy

Dear Bart, What else do you hope to get out of it? You've already shown that it really was Shelly and Lovelady walking down Elm Street Extension immediately after the shots were fired. One idea: The identity of the person (policeman?) running towards the parking lot down at the end of Elm Street Extension. Another: The identity of "Running Woman." -- Tommy