Thomas Graves

Barto, Excellent post, especially this part: "But I want to see another statement from someone else who saw a motorcycle police office standing outside [the front of the TSBD] just after the shooting. And the question needs to be asked what difference does this make? Giving Oswald more time to get down as LNers would proclaim? Or just the simple fact that they had a few seconds of a discussion outside and then Roy Truly went ahead of Marrion Baker up the steps and took him to the back? I would like to know what the long term gain is here……." I couldn't agree more! --Tommy PS Please note that Peggy Joyce Hawkin's maiden name was Bibler, not Bibbler. Also please note that it was I who spotted Roy Truly (and very probably O. V. Campbell, too -- but not having any photos of Campbell, we don't know what he looked like) in the Weigman film. See posts 26, 32, and 33 in this thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22100&page=2 . Linda G.Z. helped to confirm this and brilliantly found people like Judy Johnson and Vicki Adams on her own. Thank you!

Typical Cowboy Bob. He only gets half of it. Like I said, Bobby, both when she saw him near his motorcycle and then running towards the TSBD, she was seeing him "in front of the TSBD." --Tommy

Not so fast, Cowboy Bob. See post # 119, this thread. The fact that Peggy Hawkins (whom I found) was standing so close to Baker's motorcycle and to the TSBD could be interpreted as actually weakening your theory-in-progress, because it means that she could have seen Baker "in front of the TSBD" (i.e., by his motorcycle) just a few seconds after the assassination. It's way too early for you to start beating your chest, Cowboy Bobby. Hold your horses. (LOL!) --Tommy

Great stuff, Ed! So there were at least two vestibules in the TSBD. One right inside the front entrance, and another one, on the second floor, connected (by separate doors) to two architectural elements: 1 ) the second floor lunch room itself, and 2 ) the long hallway that led to the offices. Or do you still want to call that little strangely-shaped, enclosed, three-door room "a hallway," too? --Tommy

Or maybe he actually had been there and remembered only the balcony, as it may very well have been the apartment's only "remarkable" feature? Do you think the WC lawyer should have asked him to describe the elegant kitchen, bedroom, living room, or, heaven forbid, the bathroom? How about the elegant front yard? --Tommy

Ed, That's wonderful. I didn't realize that a little room that connected two larger rooms / areas in a building was a "hallway." Fascinating stuff. , --Tommy PS As an experiment, I googled the following three things simultaneously: "vestibule" "oswald" and "jfk". Then I clicked on "IMAGES," and look what I came up with (for example): This -- and this -- and this -- and this -- [full stop] But nothing whatsoever about the area just inside the TSBD front door. Hmmm. Imagine that. (Suggestion: Try it yourself. It's ... fun!)

Robin, Your excellent contributions on this and the "Prespective Is A B---H" thread are greatly appreciated! --Tommy

Clive this gif has 53 frames, the last 20 are blurred beyond recognition. The best frame I think is this. If that is Peggy Bibbler Hawkins and her child then she had a great position to hear Baker's motorcycle radio, since it is seen next to CamCar 2 and have a great vantage point looking back towards the front entrance of the TSBD or while walking back. edit: does that settle it Tommy????? Barto, Works for me. What I'm thinking is that Baker might have listened to his radio for a few seconds after he'd parked his motorcycle, and Peggy might have seen him there and / or as he was running towards the TSBD, and that she then walked over towards his motorcycle and heard Decker's "railroad yards" comment on the radio. Obviously, Baker would have been "in front of the TSBD" the whole time that Hawkins saw him (i.e. while he was standing next to his motorcycle and / or while running towards the building), and he still could have gone directly up the steps and into the building. The timing of Sheriff Decker's "railroad yards" comment wouldn't be so critical in that scenario, would it. Regardless, do we know exactly (not in round minutes, but plus or minus a couple of seconds) when Decker broadcast that bit about "the railroad yards" from Curry's radio? Nice rendition of that Couch frame, by the way. Keep up the good work! --Tommy

Barto, Let us know how that works out. Regarding Hawkins' claiming to have seen Baker "in front of the TSBD" while she and her son were reentering the building, if (before Truly caught up with him) Baker had taken a few seconds to ask people inside the lobby, "where are the stairs leading to the roof," would that count as being "in front of the building"? "Well, sir, there are some stairs right over there, but unfortunately, they don't go all the way up to the roof. You see, sir, I'm afraid that If you take them, you'll have to ... " --Tommy

Well, gosh, Barto. Forget about Hawkins' position, even though her position would determine whether or not she could have heard, on Baker's radio, Sheriff Decker's "railroad yards" broadcast about thirty seconds after the final shot? Just assume that she did, and leave it at that? And not only that, but that she saw Baker lingering / hanging out in front of the TSBD during Decker's broadcast, about thirty seconds after the final shot? Okay. You say that this thread is about Baker, not Hawkins or Calvery. Fine. What would you like to say about Baker? What would you like for us to discuss about Baker on this thread? What a dirty rotten xxxx he must have been? Anything else? --Tommy

Barto, What about Peggy? Answer: Now we gotta figure out why the FBI (apparently) lied and said, in so many words, that she and the four other ladies she was standing with during the motorcade were about 150 feet down Elm Street from the front of the TSBD, and were less than 50 feet from the limo when JFK was first hit. --Tommy

Hi Bob! Huh?? You do want to find Gloria Jean Calvery, whose best man (just four months earlier) was "Bill Shelley of Dallas," don't you? Your buddy, --Tommy

It's the picker-upper. I'll even slam you back into your seat! --Tommy

Hi Bob! Having found Peggy Joyce Hawkins and little Johnny, I'm afraid I gotta say I'm giving up on Gloria Jean Calvery. But, knowing me, for only about five minutes. LOL! Maybe she was Hispanic (and adopted), or something. Or maybe she was the gal in the reddish (plaid) dress and the white blouse standing near Hard Hat Millican. You know, the one I helped you see behind Alonzo in Altgens 6? Or maybe she was the woman running down Elm Street Extension in the black dress and the white top while Baker was running ... somewhere? Or maybe ... ? Please let us know what you finally decide, and whether or not it "works" with your theory-in-progress. I'm pretty sure it will. Thanks in advance!, --Tommy

I see now. Thanks, Robin. Hi Bob! Well, does that "work" for you? Does it put Peggy Joyce Hawkins and her red-capped son, Johnny, close enough to "the retaining wall" and Baker's motorcycle's radio soon enough after the assassination? Not soon enough? Just right? You're welcome, Bobby. --Tommy How does one put another member on Ignore? Jus' tryin' to help ya, Bobby. --Tommy

Greg, Good God what a good post. I mean it. --Tommy

Sandy, To answer your question and help you deal with your confusion, please re-read my post # 84, this thread, and then go to the "link" I provided in it. If you do those two things, everything will be revealed. I promise. In a nutshell, it has everything to do with perspective in photography. --Tommy PS Do try to keep up in the future. PPS Thanks for saying you think the woman holding the child in Altgens 6 is Peggy Joyce Hawkins.

I see now. Thanks, Robin. Hi Bob! Well, does that "work" for you? Does it put Peggy Joyce Hawkins and her red-capped son, Johnny, close enough to "the retaining wall" and Baker's motorcycle's radio soon enough after the assassination? Not soon enough? Just right? You're welcome, Bobby. --Tommy

I see what you mean now. Funny, Altgens' telephoto lens makes it look like the woman and man are right next to the TSBD steps, and not out on the concrete island and actually closer to the concrete pillar. That may be Hawkins and her child, although, at first glance, the child appears small for a four year old. That would certainly place her in the right spot to get behind the retaining wall, as it begins behind her just on the other side of the concrete pillar. I wonder if she considered the concrete pillar as part of the retaining wall when she gave her statement. They aren't between the two lamp posts. And it's not likely a boy would be wearing a red hat. (Or maybe it is just pink that is to be avoided.) Sandy, Sandy, Sandy. The child is wearing a knitted, pullover-style red cap, ... you know, ... like people wear when it's cold? --Tommy Edit: Peggy Joyce Hawkings (formerly Bibler) from her 1956 college yearbook. Note the same chin, eyebrows, and hair color. Bear in mind that her head is tilted at different angles in the two photographs. http://library.atu.edu/research/Agricola/PDF/1954-03.pdf edited and bumped PS -- Sandy, you do realize that it was raining and cool-ish earlier that late November day in Dallas, don't you? And windy, too? In fact the wind was gusting in Dealey Plaza right before the President was shot. Now that's what I call real "Chill Factor." The gusting wind might even explain why the woman's hair in the Altgen's 6 blow up, above, is lifted off of her forehead... Not that it matters, but maybe it was even rainier and / or cooler in Mesquite, Texas, where the Hawkins were living at the time and where Peggy had driven herself and her son to Dallas from...

I see what you mean now. Funny, Altgens' telephoto lens makes it look like the woman and man are right next to the TSBD steps, and not out on the concrete island and actually closer to the concrete pillar. That may be Hawkins and her child, although, at first glance, the child appears small for a four year old. That would certainly place her in the right spot to get behind the retaining wall, as it begins behind her just on the other side of the concrete pillar. I wonder if she considered the concrete pillar as part of the retaining wall when she gave her statement. They aren't between the two lamp posts. And it's not likely a boy would be wearing a red hat. (Or maybe it is just pink that is to be avoided.) Sandy, Sandy, Sandy. The child is wearing a knitted, pullover-style red cap, ... you know, ... like people wear when it's cold? --Tommy Edit: Peggy Joyce Hawkings (formerly Bibler) from her 1956 college yearbook. Note the same chin, cheeks, eyebrows, and hair color. Bear in mind that her head is tilted at different angles in the two photographs.

edited and bumped I like to call it the "little rooms where miracles can happen, if you wish hard enough", Tommy. That's what I call it anyways. But I'm just an old sentimentalist, I guess. Open the door and enter Truly-Land - a land where teleportation is possible. A land where you don't need those x-ray specs you clipped that comic book coupon to buy. Enter Truly-Land and you can see through anything -- but no one can see through you! You will marvel at the show inside the lunchroom! In the blink of eye, now you see him, now you don't! Yes! It's Will-O-the-Wisp Man and his amazing power to jump the time-space continuum and appear almost simultaneously seated at a table, buying a coke from the machine, walking away drinking the coke, drinking from the water cooler and dry firing his elephant gun! Is he a hologram? is he real? Come and see for your self! Ticket agent Is the Brewer Agency. Ticket sales through Postal Services and the concession stand courtesy of Butch's Hard Core Pop Corn! While you're there, take a walk down the expanding and shrinking stairs and see the Amazing Truth Contortionist! Contorting the truth was never this much fun! All this and so much more in Truly-Land -- the Land You Truly Must See!. -- Parker, the Wit Greg, It's amazing how much effort you went to to avoid answering the question. And to try to be witty, and ... funny? --Tommy PS You seem to think that if Baker encountered Oswald on the second floor, Oswald must have shot, or shot at, the President. Sorry you see it that way.

Larry, What if Oswald wasn't actually standing at the Coke machine, but inside the vestibule, looking through the vestibule's outer door window to see who was coming up the stairs? --Tommy For crying out loud Tommy! Don't you get it by now? He was IN the coke machine. Spying. Oz mistook Craig for Baker later that day in Fritz' office. That's why he said "everyone will know who I am now". His (coke) cover was blown! That's why he had to be killed. He was now a liability to the Evil Geniuses at Pepper. ---------------- Vestibule: "a passage, hall, or room between the outer door and the interior of a building : lobby" Because Oswald (correctly) used the term for the space at the first floor entrance, the builders of the false narrative had to apply it to an area on the 2nd floor so the whole thing could be moved one floor up. There was no 2nd floor vestibule. I know someone has suggested that maybe that is what everyone called it anyway for lack of a better description. Great. Give me a quote showing it's use in any pre-assassination situation or any post assassination situation not describing the 2nd floor encounter. Thanks, "Mr. Hancock." OK, if the small "room" between the second floor lunchroom and the work space / second floor landing isn't a "vestibule," what should we call it? "A small room between the second floor lunch room and the work space / second floor landing"? "The lunchroom's anteroom"? "The lunch room's little annex"? Whatever you want to call it, wouldn't it have been easier for Baker to see someone turning away from the window in that little area's outer door than someone standing by the Coke machine inside the lunchroom proper? --Tommy edited and bumped

Larry, What if Oswald wasn't actually standing at the Coke machine, but inside the vestibule, looking through the vestibule's outer door window to see who was coming up the stairs? --Tommy For crying out loud Tommy! Don't you get it by now? He was IN the coke machine. Spying. Oz mistook Craig for Baker later that day in Fritz' office. That's why he said "everyone will know who I am now". His (coke) cover was blown! That's why he had to be killed. He was now a liability to the Evil Geniuses at Pepper. ---------------- Vestibule: "a passage, hall, or room between the outer door and the interior of a building : lobby" Because Oswald (correctly) used the term for the space at the first floor entrance, the builders of the false narrative had to apply it to an area on the 2nd floor so the whole thing could be moved one floor up. There was no 2nd floor vestibule. I know someone has suggested that maybe that is what everyone called it anyway for lack of a better description. Great. Give me a quote showing it's use in any pre-assassination situation or any post assassination situation not describing the 2nd floor encounter. Thanks, "Mr. Hancock." OK, if the small "room" between the second floor lunchroom and the work space / second floor landing isn't a "vestibule," what should we call it? "A small room between the second floor lunch room and the work space / second floor landing"? "The lunchroom's anteroom"? "The lunch room's little annex"? Whatever you want to call it, wouldn't it have been easier for Baker to see someone turning away from the window in that little area's outer door than someone standing by the Coke machine inside the lunchroom proper? --Tommy

Larry, What if Oswald wasn't actually standing at the Coke machine, but inside the vestibule, looking through the vestibule's outer door window to see who was coming up the stairs? --Tommy

I'm convinced, Tommy, that you never post anything serious anymore. You're always going for the laugh. May I suggest a hobby in stand-up comedy? I'm sure there are workshops in your area. Regards, --Paul Trejo Uhhh... I was serious, actually, Paul. Can't deal with it? --Tommy Oh, I can deal with it, Tommy. It's pulp fiction. You're posting that Marina Oswald really spoke English perfectly, and was a brilliant 19 year old KGB spy, who married LHO in order to come to the USA to murder the President. But when she got to the USA, the FBI and the CIA convinced her that she should be on the USA side, so they turned her, so that -- um, uh, um, uh, well the President was killed anyway. It's a useless detour, Tommy. It's based on useless fiction. The suspicion that Marina Oswald spoke perfect English requires that everybody in the Oswald family, and all the White Russians, and all the people who came into contact with Marina Oswald in the USA who agreed that her English skills were pitiful -- were ALL INVOLVED IN A CONSPIRACY TO HIDE THE TRUTH. It just makes no sense at all. That's because it's pulp fiction. Regards, --Paul Trejo No, I'm not saying that, dum dum. It's possible that sexy Marina entrapped and married Oswald in the U.S.S.R. in order to come to America, not to murder the yet-to-be-elected JFK, but to be a KGB "sleeper" agent, perhaps literally and figuratively. ( LOL! ) And who got "turned" in the U.S. by the bad guys, because they knew she was KGB. D'oh. --Tommy