Thomas Graves

I don't answer rhetorical questions, Professor. I only ask them. --Tommy

And no one in the CIA had nothing to do with the setting up of Oswald to be the patsy, you know, before the assassination... OK. --Tommy

As rocknroll history McGowan's work is bunk. The rest of his material about intel operations in Laurel Canyon may be spot on, but the music stuff is nonsense. Jim Morrison and Arthur Lee are now regarded more as proto-punk than hippie-psychedelic. Frank Zappa's psychedelia was fueled by coffee, not LSD. The Byrds, Mamas & Papas, the Monkees, Buffalo Springfield, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, Scott MacKenzie...they play this stuff on elevators! In terms of acid rock there's San Francisco and there's Texas --13th Floor Elevators out of Austin and the Moving Sidewalks out of Houston. McGowan: “Perhaps Neil Young said it best when he told an interviewer that he couldn’t really say why he headed out to LA circa 1966; he and others “were just going like Lemmings.” Because that's where the major record labels were. Duh... For what it's worth, I heard "For What It's Worth" (You know -- Something's happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear ?) in the lobby of the Hotel Del Charro other night. In my dreams, in my dreams. http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/jan/05/cover-oil-politics-la-jolla/# --Tommy

If they "sized him up well in advance of the assassination and prepared a plan for framing him that would be implemented once the assassination occurred," in my book that's the same thing as setting him up as the patsy. Unless, of course, they had also "sized up" several other possible Odd Duck, self-incriminating dummies as scapegoats in Dallas and other cities that JFK was going to visit or had already visited, and had prepared "framing plans" for them, as well, in advance of the assassination, and Oswald just happened to end up at the right place at the right time. Sounds like a lot of work to me. --Tommy I'd equate Oswald with "the top pick in the draft." If Oswald been killed in a car accident the morning of 11/22/63 maybe we'd be talking about Jack Lawrence as Kennedy's "official" assassin... Do you think the bad guy had all their "ducks in a row," ready to effectively frame Lawrence for the assassination in case something happened to Oswald? They had him placed on the grassy knoll, behind the picket fence where the car he borrowed from the dealership was parked. He came into the dealership with mud on his clothes, sick to his stomach, soon after the assassination. Air Force marksman background. Maybe the reason he was sick to his stomach was that he knew he'd been set up? Really? Who else, in case something happened to both of them? Charles V. Harrelson, perhaps. Was Lawrence a self-avowed "Marxist" and Castro supporter? Or was his being a car salesman bad enough? Right-winger. Different patsy set. Oswald was the top pick because he could be painted as a Red Agent, but looks to me as if killing Kennedy was the top priority, and lacking a Commie Perp wouldn't have been a reason to abort. --Tommy Of course you replied before I was finished editing. My bad. So here it is. Note the changes near the end. Do you think the bad guy had all their "ducks in a row," ready to effectively frame Lawrence for the assassination in case something happened to Oswald? Really? Who else do you think they were ready to frame, in case something happened to both Oswald and Lawrence? Was Lawrence a self-avowed "Marxist" and Castro supporter who had been impersonated in Mexico City? Or was his being a car salesman sufficient to leverage LBJ into setting up a LN Commission in order to save the lives of "40 million Americans"? --Tommy

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons: 1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO; 2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO; 3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right; 4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?; 5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she? Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked. I think the people "moving back towards the TSBD" were doing so only because they wanted to see what the running policeman was going to do there. Note that they are moving quickly. IMHO, they are doing that in order not to "miss" anything. --Tommy Not all of the people are "...moving quickly." IMO. The few people who are moving directly towards towards the TSBD are already close to the TSBD and are moving very quickly except for perhaps one lady in a black raincoat who might me moving about as fast as she can, or who perhaps remembers the adage "Real ladies don't run." Her final stride across the street is a long one, though, so perhaps she's decided to finally "get a move on." Notice how all the kids are starting to run down Elm Street towards the Grassy Knoll? Do you think they just stood there watching patiently for a long time first? I rather doubt it. Also, see the rear part of the convertible car in the left foreground at the beginning of the clip? That's a press car that was in the motorcade, and it takes off again in a few seconds, as it follows the other cars ahead of it in the motorcade as they race down Elm Street, following JFK's limo. (I'm not going to argue with you, or even "debate" it any further.) --Tommy bumped

If they "sized him up well in advance of the assassination and prepared a plan for framing him that would be implemented once the assassination occurred," in my book that's the same thing as setting him up as the patsy. Unless, of course, they had also "sized up" several other possible Odd Duck, self-incriminating dummies as scapegoats in Dallas and other cities that JFK was going to visit or had already visited, and had prepared "framing plans" for them, as well, in advance of the assassination, and Oswald just happened to end up at the right place at the right time. Sounds like a lot of work to me. --Tommy I'd equate Oswald with "the top pick in the draft." If Oswald been killed in a car accident the morning of 11/22/63 maybe we'd be talking about Jack Lawrence as Kennedy's "official" assassin... Do you think the bad guy had all their "ducks in a row," ready to effectively frame Lawrence for the assassination in case something happened to Oswald? Really? Who else do you think they were ready to frame, in case something happened to both Oswald and Lawrence? Was Lawrence a self-avowed "Marxist" and Castro supporter who had been impersonated in Mexico City? Or was his being a car salesman sufficient to leverage LBJ into setting up a LN Commission in order to save the lives of :"40 million Americans"? --Tommy

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons: 1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO; 2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO; 3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right; 4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?; 5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she? Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked. I think the people "moving back towards the TSBD" were doing so only because they wanted to see what the running policeman was going to do there. Note that they are moving quickly. IMHO, they are doing that in order not to "miss" anything. --Tommy Not all of the people are "...moving quickly." IMO. The few people who are moving directly towards towards the TSBD are already close to the TSBD and are moving very quickly except for perhaps one lady in a black raincoat who might me moving about as fast as she can, or who perhaps remembers the adage "Real ladies don't run." Her final stride across the street is a long one, though, so perhaps she's decided to finally "get a move on." Notice how all the kids are starting to run down Elm Street towards the Grassy Knoll? Do you think they just stood there watching patiently for a long time first? I rather doubt it. Also, see the rear part of the convertible car in the left foreground at the beginning of the clip? That's a press car that was in the motorcade, and it takes off again in a few seconds, as it follows the other cars ahead of it in the motorcade as they race down Elm Street, following JFK's limo. (I'm not going to argue with you, or even "debate" it any further.) --Tommy

If they "sized him up well in advance of the assassination and prepared a plan for framing him that would be implemented once the assassination occurred," in my book that's the same thing as setting him up as the patsy. Unless, of course, they had also "sized up" several other possible Odd Duck, self-incriminating dummies as scapegoats in Dallas and other cities that JFK was going to visit or had already visited, and had prepared "framing plans" for them, as well, in advance of the assassination, and Oswald just happened to end up at the right place at the right time. But that sounds like a lot of work to me. You know, to plan so thoroughly for all the different contingencies that might arise with all those different Odd Duck potential scapegoats in all those different cities -- and the monitoring, my god, the monitoring of all those people for such a long time, and the thorougness of the "sizing up" processes of all those people in-and-of-itself! Holy Toledo! --Tommy

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons: 1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO; 2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO; 3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right; 4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?; 5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she? Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked. I think the people "moving back towards the TSBD" were doing so only because they wanted to see what the running policeman was going to do there. Note that they are moving quickly. IMHO, they are doing that in order not to "miss" anything. --Tommy

What kind and color of clothes was Pauline Sanders wearing that day? Dark bottom and light top, by any chance? (Too lazy to check, myself.) Just thinking that maybe, just maybe, that's Sanders (or somebody else) running towards the TSBD in Darnell/Couch and that Calvary has either already arrived or is trailing behind Sanders somewhere. --Tommy

Dear Mr. Tidd, Thank God you've enlightened us to the fact that Oswald was just an Odd Duck who stupidly and inadvertently set himself up to be "the patsy," that the CIA had absolutely nothing to do with the planning and actual killing of Kennedy, and that Oswald was only framed by the bad guys when they realized what a good scapegoat candidate he was a few minutes after the shots rang out. Your presence here is ... incredible. Thank you, --Tommy I dedicate this song to, well, myself because I am too "Slippery People" to buy it. What about the time? You were rollin' over Fall on your face You must be having fun. Walk lightly! Think of a time. You'd best believe This thing is real. Put away that gun. This part is simple. Try to recognize What is in your mind. God help us! Help us lose our minds. These slippery people Help us understand. What's the matter with him? He's alright! I see his face the Lord won't mind Don't play no games he's alright. Love from the bottom to the top Turn like a wheel he's alright See for yourself the Lord won't mind. We're gonna move right now Turn like a wheel inside a wheel. I remember when Sittin' in the tub Pulled out the plug The water was runnin' out. Cool down Stop acting crazy They're gonna leave And we'll be on our own. Seven times five. They were living creatures Watch 'em come to life Right before your eyes. Backsliding! How do you do? These slippery people Gonna see you through. ("Slippery People" by the Talking Heads) %3

OK, Greg. I'll start a new thread and move it there and delete it from here. Sorry, Old Chap. Carry on. --Tommy

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Greg, Maybe drink a few beers and then do some shimming? I hear beer cans make excellent shims. (Just trying to be witty as usual...) --Tommy

Wrong dress and blouse/sweater/jacket colors. Reversed from what she was photographed wearing a few moments earlier on Elm Street. --Tommy

Sorry Bob, I don't see the Calvary figure you're talking about. Could you please be a little more specific as to where she is in this clip? Thanks, --Tommy

Why can't he just bring it up on his computer and copy and paste it into a post here as an "edit"? --Tommy

So what's your final, bottom line take on all this, Robert? Was it Baker or Barnett running towards the TSBD in Darnell/Couch? Or neither? Hmmmm? OK then. What's your most current tentative conclusion? --Tommy

Robert, If Barnett indeed encountered Adams and Styles in the railway yard, some 100 yards away from the TSBD, I don't understand why he would tell them get back inside the TSBD. For their own protection? To keep "lookie lou's" out of what he thought might be the crime scene? So they could be easily found later to take reports from? It's easier to see him telling them to get back inside the TSBD upon encountering them as they were leaving the building. --Tommy

Paul, I don't see it like that. Way to "deep" and a bit paranoid, IMHO. I'm a Hegelian. Thesis Antithesis kind of stuff. But recently there hasn't been much of the Synthesis (compromising) in Congress, "thanks" to the unyielding, iconoclastic Tea Party reactionaries.... IMHO, --Tommy PS I'll never forget seeing Nixon in church (La Jolla Presbyterian) one Sunday during the 1968 Presidential campaign. It was in the summer, I so figure he must have been in town to visit his buddies Murtchison and Hoover at Murtchison's Hotel Del Charro...

Robert, Maybe Connally was just waving to Gloria Calvary, telling her she better "get on her horse and hightail it" to the TSBD so she could be caught on film with Marion Baker, William Shelley, and Billy Lovelady. Maybe the bad guys decided to cut that part out or alter it because if they knew that if they left it in, it would prove there was a conspiracy to frame "Marina's husband" after the fact. --Tommy

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Jon, Perhaps if you were willing to view the above-mentioned incidents collectively rather than as isolated, individual incidents, you'd be able to accept the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was set up in advance to be implicated in the assassination, and that he was also set up to be framed after the fact. The DPD had all of their ducks in a row for that. Look at it this way: If an effort was made to set up Oswald in advance, the bad guys would have been pretty stupid to think that they could implicate Oswald by any one of these incidents, alone, wouldn't they. --Tommy

So the Z-film was faked / altered in certain places or, as Jon G. Tidd says, "from start to finish"? --Tommy

Wow, Mr. Jon G. Tidd. You think the "extant" Z-film was faked from start to finish. By whom? Walt Disney? Sure sounds like a lot of work to me. "Frozen" witnesses? Well, I would kinda stand respectfully at "attention" as the President of the United States and his beautiful wife rode by in a limo, surrounded by heavilly-armed policemen and Secret Service agents, wouldn't you. And if I heard firecrackers or gunshots ring out, I suppose I'd just stand there in disbelief... When you say "extant" I guess you're implying that there was originally a radically different Z-film, and that it was radically reworked in the dark room to create what we today call the "Z-film". Boy, that sure sounds like a lot of work to me. Do you think the bad guys worked on it all during the time period from, say, 11/23/63 until Geraldo showed it on TV, or do you think the bad guys only need a relatively short period of time to accomplish this? Do you tend to think like former "contributor" Robert Mady that the bad guys staged and filmed assassination scenes in advance or after the fact, using known assassination witnesses, etc? --Tommy