Thomas Graves

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Hi Chris. Sorry I have no idea what the model was. I also have only ever seen the chain attached to a camera, but maybe there some that don't and the chain attaches to the camera case instead. Maybe I should have added "IMO" to my statement that the chain is "always attached to the camera". From: thomas graves [mailto:XXXXXXXXXX@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 6:03 PM To: info@XXXXXXXX.com Subject: Is this a Minox case? Marty, Could you please tell me if this is a Minox case, and if so, which model it was made for? Also, was it normal for the chain to be attached to the case? Thank you, --Thomas Graves (San Diego, CA) ___________________________________________________________________ His response: It is a Minox case, for the Model A (II/III/IIIs). The chain is supposed to go through the case grommet and stays with the case, yes. I hope that helps. -Marty (red emphasis added to this post by T. Graves on 10/09/13)

Bumped with a message I couldn't post as a reply to Bill Kelley's most recent post, this thread, on 10/09/13: Bill, The lunchroom door didn't have a window, whereas the self-closing vestibule door (outside the lunchroom door) did. See post number 870, this thread for a photo showing both doors. I'm afraid your insisting on referring to this windowed vestibule door as the "lunchroom door" only confuses the issue. Sincerely, --Tommy

Bill, I'm just speculating here. To answer your question(s), my guess is that the bad guys didn't tell Truly that he had to see Oswald go through the door ahead of Baker, but perhaps did tell Baker that he had to see Oswald through the window of that door because they realized that it would be plausible that Oswald had sneaked through that windowed door (and that the door had closed itself) just before Truly (yes, running up the stairs ahead of Baker) had an opportunity to see or hear that happen, and, given the above, that it would also be plausible that, although Baker had caught a glimpse of the "sneaky, lurking" Oswald through the door's window, Truly, in his haste, hadn't. --Tommy Yes, Tommy, I acknowledge that point - if Oswald had been the Sixth Floor Sniper he could have left the sniper's nest and arrived at the Second Floor lunchroom door in time to get on the other side of it and close it and make a funny face - wiggling his fingers in front of his nose at Truly as he came through the steps door - and there is a door there - and thus attracting Baker's attention as he arrived at the top of the second floor steps. But if he had, the DPD would have lifted his prints off the door nob of the door at the top of the steps as well as the door to the lunch room - but they didn't. And while I can imagine it, I don't think it played out that way. But if you read the post on the Oswald's Coke thread, and it should be repeated here - Jean Davison has identified the master script writer of the whole Second Floor lunchroom encounter - Alfred Goldberg - the DOD historian who wrote much of the Warren Report narrative, and requested the FBI obtain the last minute statements from Baker and Truly. [emphasis added by T. Graves] Bill, Even if they tried to find Oswald's fingerprints on those door nobs. they probably wouldn't have found them anyway (but would have a plausible reason for not finding them) because several other people, including Baker and Truly, had put their grubby mitts on said door knobs by the time they could have been "dusted." Hypothetical Official Announcement: "Unfortunately, y'all, Oswald's fingerprints was smudged beyond all re-cog-nition when all them people opened them thar doors. But it don't matter none cuz we know he's a guilty son-of-a-gun any how!" --Tommy edited and bumped

Bill, If the second floor lunchroom encounter so obviously, as you claim, exonerated Oswald, why then did the Warren Commission accept it as "fact?" Answer: Because it was sufficiently plausible (being reported by a policeman and a building superintendent!), it took Oswald off the front steps at the time of the assassination, it placed Oswald a lot closer to the back stairway and the "sniper's nest," and it allowed Oswald to "escape" in a way that didn't cast too much aspersion on the Dallas Police Department. --Tommy [...] And if the second floor lunchroom encounter was made up to cover up the front door encounter, how come the guy who wrote the script forgot to tell Truly that he would have had to see Oswald go through the lunchroom door [sic] if he in fact did come down the back steps and entered the lunchroom that way? [...] Bill, You keep saying, "Truly would have seen Oswald." Why couldn't Oswald have gone through that windowed vestibule door just before Truly hit the second floor landing (on his way up to the third floor), and why couldn't Oswald have "hung out" there in that space between that windowed vestibule door and the lunchroom door just a bit too long, allowing Baker to catch a glimpse of him through the window? --Tommy

Bill, If the second floor lunchroom encounter so obviously, as you claim, exonerated Oswald, why then did the Warren Commission accept it as "fact?" Answer: Because it was sufficiently plausible (being reported by a policeman and a building superintendent!), it took Oswald off the front steps at the time of the assassination, it placed Oswald a lot closer to the back stairway and the "sniper's nest," and it allowed Oswald to "escape" in a way that didn't cast too much aspersion on the Dallas Police Department. --Tommy

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, Bill. Your devotion to the lunchroom story is total, and that's fine with me. You're also perfectly free to mock the notion that the 'investigating' authorities would have worked very hard to cover up inconvenient facts in the case. But you should be aware that when you do so you sound more like David von Pein than your own good self. ** Now the question you ask is easily answered: Truly, by the time the 'walking away' element was incorporated into the lunchroom story, had already gone on the record over and over again to the effect that his own first sighting of Oswald post-assassination was of Oswald in the actual lunchroom. It was too late to embellish along the lines you are suggesting. ** Why do you keep claiming that the lunchroom scenario, as told by Baker and Truly to the WC, "exonerates Oswald"? Please show us how the following LN scenario is ruled out by Baker and Truly's testimony: Oswald shoots JFK Oswald comes down the stairs Oswald on the second floor, hearing the noise of someone on the way up, hurries over to the second-floor landing door and goes through it Oswald looks through the door window as Truly crosses the landing Oswald is about to go back out onto the landing when he is surprised to see an officer hit the landing Oswald spins around to head for the lunchroom But the officer notices the movement. [...] [emphasis added by T. Graves] Bumped to remind people that "The Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter" could have been a plausible work of fiction.

Bill, If the second floor lunchroom encounter so obviously, as you claim, exonerated Oswald, why then did the Warren Commission accept it as "fact?" Answer: Because it was sufficiently plausible (being reported by a policeman and a building superintendent!), it took Oswald off the front steps at the time of the assassination, it placed Oswald a lot closer to the back stairway and the "sniper's nest," and it allowed Oswald to "escape" in a way that didn't cast too much aspersion on the Dallas Police Department. --Tommy

"The guy in the eBay pictures"? The guy in the eBay pictures is Robert E. Webster.

David, Right now (10/07/13) there are some old press photos of Webster for sale on eBay in which I see a strong facial resemblance between he and Oswald. Two of the photos show Webster with blond hair, which might help to implicate him as the "Blond Oswald" whom either (?) the Cuban Consul Azcue and (?) Sylvia Duran claimed to have dealt with in Mexico City in late September, 1963. Just go to eBay and in the search box type in "Robert E. Webster" and see for yourself. --Tommy .

Robert, Right now eBay has a couple of old press photos of Oswald-look-alike Robert E. Webster that I haven't seen before. There's one that shows Webster "preparing the exhibition" in Russia with blond hair, and another one with him back in the U.S. with his wife and children which also shows him as an apparent blondie. Just go to eBay and in the search box type in "Robert E Webster." --Tommy PS I wonder how well Webster spoke Russian after living there for a couple of years? Could it be that he spoke "terrible, hardly understandable Russian?"

Nice catch, Richard. I think "College Boy" can also be seen very briefly a little bit later, at 2:21 in the same Cook-Cooper Video. He's standing in the street at the far right of the frame, in the background, not far from the three-wheeler motorcycle. I think the tall blond woman so prominent at 1:47 is also visible to the left, behind the police car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage --Tommy

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD? Okay, they don't see Victoria Adams. They leave the front steps, run-walk to the end of Elm, walk to the back by way of the first rail road track and enter the west side door, and see Eddie Piper but not Victoria Adams. Adams says she too went out to the tracks and was ordered back into the building by a cop. Shelley told the WC that when he reentered the TSBD from the west side door, he asked somebody (Piper?) what time it was, and the next question should have been - what time was it? - Then he discussed whether there would be any more work that day - which is what Oswald said he hear Shelly talking about when he wandered off. The Warren Report says that Oswald claimed he heard Shelley say this "out front" but it is now apparent that this conversation took place in the rear of the TSBD, and if Frazier is correct in his having seen Oswald walk up Houston street, he must have exited the back, not the front. What time was it when Shelley asked for the time? (emphasis added by T. Graves) It seems strange that William Shelley, working as a supervisor at the TSBD, would ever have to ask someone what time it was. It looks like he's wearing a watch in these photographs. Short sleeved shirt? Speaking of Eddie Piper, Mr Ball; What did you and Billy Lovelady do? Mr. Shelley: We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end. Mr. Ball: At the west end? Mr. Shelley: Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room. Mr. Ball: When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody? Mr. Shelley: I saw Eddie Piper. Mr. Ball: What was he doing? Mr. Shelley: He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room. --Tommy Given the fact that Shelley had just reentered the building, how did he know that "Piper had been watching the motorcade from the southwest corner of the shipping room?" expanded and bumped

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD? Okay, they don't see Victoria Adams. They leave the front steps, run-walk to the end of Elm, walk to the back by way of the first rail road track and enter the west side door, and see Eddie Piper but not Victoria Adams. Adams says she too went out to the tracks and was ordered back into the building by a cop. Shelley told the WC that when he reentered the TSBD from the west side door, he asked somebody (Piper?) what time it was, and the next question should have been - what time was it? - Then he discussed whether there would be any more work that day - which is what Oswald said he hear Shelly talking about when he wandered off. The Warren Report says that Oswald claimed he heard Shelley say this "out front" but it is now apparent that this conversation took place in the rear of the TSBD, and if Frazier is correct in his having seen Oswald walk up Houston street, he must have exited the back, not the front. What time was it when Shelley asked for the time? (emphasis added by T. Graves) It seems strange that William Shelley, working as a supervisor at the TSBD, would ever have to ask someone what time it was. Is looks like he's wearing a watch in these photographs. Short sleeved shirt? --Tommy

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor? I am still trying to sort this all out. The witness testimony is a free for all with Lovelady and Shelley giving contradictory statements at various times. Regarding your first question (did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the elevators before Truly and Baker?), consider this: Baker is about to enter the building at just about the same time that James Darnell hops off the convertible at the corner of Houston and Elm. Darnell runs to the West (with Camera running in his hands), and goes all the way to the area in front of the colonnade. That is a distance greater than the distance Truly and Baker would have to cover to get to the NW stairs on the first floor. Darnell then takes film of Calvary on the grass just a few steps from her motorcade viewing spot by the Curb on Elm St. Now unless Shelley and Lovelady came all the way down to where Gloria was, they still have not had their encounter ... So the boys still need to pass by Calvary (presumably near the East colonnade enclosure, hear the news from her, go to the first RR tracks, then return to the TSBD first floor through the west entrance to get to the NW stairs. That all makes it very difficult for me to believe S&L were at the elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there. Regarding your second question, if I were going to place a bet, I would put money on Vicky Adams getting down to the first floor before anyone else arrived there. I have always found it odd that most researchers assume Truly ordered Shelley to guard the elevators before he and Baker ascended the stairs. I believe Shelley's testimony tells us exactly what happened. "Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end. Mr. BALL - At the west end? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room. Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody? Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper. Mr. BALL - What was he doing? Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room. Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Who else did you see? Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately. Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams? Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her. Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back? Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building. Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that. Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast. Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors." When asked if the police came into the building, Shelley replies yes, "they" started coming in pretty fast. As Baker was by himself with Truly, the word "they" would not define him. However, by the time Truly and Baker had come back to the 1st floor, there would have been several more police there, as described by Shelley. As you say, it is very difficult to believe Shelley and Lovelady would have beaten Truly, Baker or Miss Adams to the 1st floor elevators, considering the distances involved. Robert and Richard, It's interesting that in his WC testimony, Truly didn't say anything about posting Shelley (or anyone for that matter) at the elevators-- neither on Baker's and his way up to the roof, nor after their getting back down to the first floor (when it was a "madhouse," according to Truly). It's also interesting that he said he saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor and some policemen on the fourth floor. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm --Tommy

Bill, OK, but where do you want to fit in their alleged journey to the concrete "island" (where the traffic signal is situated), before or after they were caught on film walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard (as Baker is running up the TSBD steps)? And how long did they stay at the edge of the railway yard, "watching the police search cars?" And when did Gloria Calvary tell them that JFK had been shot? --Tommy

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside. Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor. Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps. Bill, read the testimony again. Did Shelley say he ran down Elm St.? No, he testified they WALKED down Elm St. Big difference. He also testified that they STOOD there for a while and watched them search cars in the parking lot. Not only is the distance Shelley covered from the front steps of the TSBD to the railroad track and back to the loading dock greater than the distance Victoria Adams covered from the 4th to the 1st floor by at least a factor of four (if not five or six - see the photo Thomas provided), he seems to be taking his sweet time; stopping to talk to Gloria Calvery and watching cars being searched. Victoria Adams, on the other hand, left the 4th floor within seconds of the last shot and went down to the 1st floor as rapidly as she could. She obviously was at the 1st floor before Baker and Truly got to the elevators and, from Shelley's testimony, it is hard to understand how Truly could have given Shelley orders to guard the elevator. Truly would have been on his way upstairs before Shelley made it back to the building. I can buy that. But the girls still came down the steps before Baker and Truly went up. If that's Gloria Calvary running past Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film, it's obvious that they didn't stop and have a conversation with her. Maybe she just yelled out, "They've shot JFK!" in passing? Billy Lovelady's WC testimony sure is interesting in this regard. (And the highlighted red "yeah" is suspicious, IMHO. Why not "yes, sir" "yes" or "right," like all of his other affirmative answers? Is he telling a fib here, knowing that Ball means "Were you standing on the steps with Mr. Shelley when Gloria Calvary came running up?") But it is interesting to note that Lovelady thought the shots came from the left of the concrete pergola on the grassy knoll. Mr. BALL - What did you hear? Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot. Mr. BALL - Who was this girl? Mr. LOVELADY -Gloria Calvary. Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Where does she work? Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co. Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound? Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll. Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area. Mr. BALL - From the underpass area? Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll. Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are. Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are? Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture. Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating). Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken? Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating). Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step? Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level. Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley? Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah. Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with. Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley. Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes--- Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there? Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running. Mr. BALL - That's all? Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there? Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess--- Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way? Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction. Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. Mr. BALL - How many steps? Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25. Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. Mr. BALL - Then what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building. Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did. Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk? Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk. Mr. BALL - A fast walk? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked. Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door? Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door. Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door? Mr. LOVELADY - That's right. Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it? Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street? Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock. Mr. BALL - I am? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two. Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side. Mr. BALL - Now, the south side--- Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street. Mr. BALL - That's south. Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west. Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors. Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it. Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman. Mr. BALL - What is her full name? Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in. Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then? Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor. Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did. --Tommy

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside. Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor. Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps. My original point was that Shelley evidently suffered a serious memory lapse in his affidavit and some other testimony, because in the Malcolm Couch film he and Lovelady are not "at" or "on," or running "to" the "corner of the park" or "the island," but are walking (and then running) down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot at the same time that Baker is running into the TSBD. --Tommy Exactly, Thomas. Unless Truly waited around the elevators on the 1st floor for Shelley to return, how was he able to give him orders to guard the elevators? Did he shout the orders down the elevator shaft from the 5th floor? It is entirely possible that Truly gave orders to Shelley AFTER he and Baker returned to the 1st floor from the roof. Speaking of memory lapses, Shelley's first day affidavit mentions nothing of the walk to the parking lot, has Gloria Calvery running up to the steps to share the news, has Shelley going immediately inside (presumably by the front entrance) and has Shelley phoning his wife (I thought the phones were out?) and telling her about the assassination, all BEFORE heading to the elevators. As I said, Mr. Truly must have been a VERY patient man. P.S. Just for emphasis: "Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit. Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes." Robert, Malcolm Couch's WC testimony gives us a good idea how soon after the final shot Shelley and Lovelady were walking down the Elm Street Extension in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot. [...] Mr. BELIN - Do you remember where you vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot? Mr. COUCH - I would say we were about 50 feet from making - or maybe 60 feet - from making the left-hand turn onto Elm. Mr. BELIN - Did you hear more than three shots? Mr. COUCH - No. Mr. BELIN - Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north on Houston? Mr. COUCH - Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire right behind us - and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And the three shots sounded, at first - the impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring. Mr. BELIN - Now, between the first and the second shots, is there anything else you can remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that you haven't related here at this time? Mr. COUCH - Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh - as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning - several of us turning - and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob Jackson who was as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!" And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor. And seeing about a foot of a rifle being - the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in the window - just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel. Mr. BELIN - What building was that? Mr. COUCH - This was the Texas Book Depository Building. Mr. BELIN - At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas? Mr. COUCH - That's right. Mr. BELIN - You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know how many floors there are in that building - or did you know at the time? Mr. COUCH - No; I didn't know at the time. Mr. BELIN - Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to the top floor or the second to the top floor - or - Mr. COUCH - It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance at the building, your thrown off a little as to the floors because there's a ridge - uh, it almost looks like a structured added onto the top of the building, about one story above. So you have to recount. Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but - Mr. BELIN - You just remember to the best of your recollection, that it was either the sixth or the seventh floor? Mr. COUCH - That's right. Mr. BELIN - And when you say, "the far right" - Mr. COUCH - That would be the far east. Mr. BELIN - The far east of what side of the building? Mr. COUCH - The south side of the building. Mr. BELIN - Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn - first of all, could you tell it was a rifle? Mr. COUCH - Yes, I'd say you could. Uh - if a person was just standing on the - as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you might not think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle. Mr. BELIN - Did you see anything more than the steel barrel of a rifle? Mr. COUCH - No. Mr. BELIN - Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic sight on it? Mr. COUCH - No. Mr. BELIN - Did you see any of the stock of the rifle? Mr. COUCH - No. Mr. BELIN - Did you see any person pulling in the rifle? Mr. COUCH - No. Mr. BELIN - Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the window was open or halfway open or what? Mr. COUCH - It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open. I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open - but that was an impression. Mr. BELIN - Did you see anything else in the window that you remember - any boxes or anything like that. Mr. COUCH - No; I didn't Mr. BELIN - You didn't notice whether there was or was not - or do you definitely remember that you did not notice any. Mr. COUCH - No; I didn't notice anything. Mr. BELIN - Did you see any other people in any other window in the building? Mr. COUCH - Yes; I recall seeing - uh - some people standing in some of the other windows - about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. I recall one - it looked like a negro boy with a white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up - up to the windows above him. Mr. BELIN - Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the building? Mr. COUCH - No; that's just about the only impression I had at the moment. Mr. BELIN - Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson Say. Did anyone else say anything in the car? Mr. COUCH - No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle or anything. Mr. BELIN - Where was the car when you saw the rifle being withdrawn? Mr. COUCH - I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our car was facing the south side of the building. Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his exclamation and you saw what you just related? Mr. COUCH - Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And - uh - you can see from my film that we were just turning the corner. We start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn. And then I took pictures of - uh -a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner. Mr. BELIN - Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself? Mr. COUCH - Not of the south side at the moment. After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down elm, uh - we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the - I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the - uh - at the very bottom of Elm Street - Mr. BELIN - Is that what they call the triple-underpass? Mr. COUCH - Right. And - uh - I think, as I recall, right after we made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver - who wasn't to anxious to stop - to stop and - uh - we all jumped out. And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long. Mr. BELIN - Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building entrance? Mr. COUCH - No - Uh - Mr. BELIN - When you came back up there? Mr. COUCH - Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have been a sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it. Mr. BELIN - Would these shots - these wide angle lens shots, if anyone were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be to far away? Mr. COUCH - They would be to far away. Possibly if the frames were blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there - identify someone. Mr. BELIN - About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you came back to take these pictures? Mr. COUCH - Well, I'd say it took me - uh - maybe a minute and a half to get back to there after this third shot - because we weren't but seconds getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn. Mr. BELIN - Uh-huh. Mr. COUCH - And - uh - I jumped out and ran back. So I'd say not over a minute and a half. Mr. BELIN - And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the area? Mr. COUCH - Right. Mr. BELIN - Were most of the shots directed at people along the side there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots directed at the School Book Depository Building? Mr. COUCH - Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and shots such as this. Mr. BELIN - In what direction, generally, would the camera have been pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these pictures? Mr. COUCH - Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointed south - because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that little sidewalk. Mr. BELIN - And your camera was pointing south? Mr. COUCH - Pointing south. That's right. Now after I had taken I don't know how many feet of film of people standing around, I - uh -we - I think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, now, I can't remember; they were photographers - we stopped a car that was going by with a boy in it - a young boy of about high school age - and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from about - uh - maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground level on past the park area - a sweeping shot with the car moving. [...] (edited) Taking Couch's testimony, his film, and the known sequence and movements of cars in the motorcade into consideration, it looks like the camera car Couch was riding in (#10 in the animation, below) had come to a stop in the middle of its turn onto Elm when he started filming and caught Baker running towards the TSBD a few seconds after the final shot. It's interesting to note that Couch's car was eight cars behind JFK's limo and, according to him, about 60 feet from starting its turn onto Elm when he heard the third shot. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/animation2.htm --Tommy

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside. Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor. Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps. My original point was that Shelley evidently suffered a serious memory lapse in his affidavit as well as some other testimony. In the Malcolm Couch film he and Lovelady are not "at" or "on," or running "to" the "corner of the park" or "the island" at the same time that Baker is running into the TSBD. They are walking (and then running) down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot, instead. --Tommy

double post My original point was that Shelley evidently suffered a serious memory lapse in his affidavit, because in the Malcolm Couch film he and Lovelady are not at, or running to, the "corner of the park," but apparently walking (and then running) down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot right at the same time that Baker is running into the TSBD. --Tommy

double post

Thanks, Bill! You are the man! Now, a question for everyone: In the following 2012 Lancer presentation by Bill Simpich, he says, "JM/Wave, again, was in Miami and it had a contingent in Mexico City as well, in the embassy." http://justiceforkennedy.blogspot.com/2013/04/bill-simpichs-lancer-2012-presentation.html Joe Backes, who posted the presentation on his Justice for Kennedy website, asked a question which I paraphrase here: Can it be verified that JM/Wave had a contingent in the Mexico City embassy in 1963? And my very own question: Which embassy? Thanks, --Tommy

Exactly, Robert. That's why I asked several pages ago why William Shelley had lied or had had such a serious memory lapse (in his affidavit). We know that later on, Billy Lovelady was caught on the John Martin and the Robert Hughes films while smoking a cigarette in the crowd on the TSBD steps, and that even later he was also caught on film while sitting in a chair, watching Oswald being brought into an office at the police station. We know that some time after the assassination William Shelley got into a police car with Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce, because that's on film, too. But where did Shelley and Lovelady go and what did they do after they walked and ran down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard, as is shown in the Malcolm Couch clip? Did they not go all the way to the railway yard, but hang a right at the corner of the TSBD, and then hang another right and go to the rear of the building and enter it? Why did Shelley say in his affidavit that they went to the "island," saw Baker run into the TSBD from out there, got the bad news from Gloria Calvery out there, etc? What bothers me is that in his affidavit, Shelley talks about interacting with the mysterious Jack Dougherty. Did he really leave Dougherty in charge of the elevators? --Tommy

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'. In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance. Sean, OK. In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind. Thanks, --Tommy Edit: I watched it frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading the clip at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot," and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar. Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all. Tommy, Can you post the frame (or frames) where you believe you detect a white collar? There are numerous white artifacts that flash on the clip in the vicinity of Lovelady and the man next to him, and also on the TSBD in the background. That would explain why the white spot only appears "briefly on him". I believe that is probably what you are seeing. Richard, I accept your explanation and I am now convinced that the two men in the red circle are Shelley and Lovelady. Thank you. Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to point out that in this clip, Shelly and Lovelady are walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the rail road tracks, not towards the "island" at the intersection of Elm and Houston that Shelley testified they went to. Please compare both of the versions of the clip in this post with the still photograph viewable at the bottom of the page at warsh.livejournal.com/3649523.html and note how S & L pass behind a car that's parked on the Elm Street Extension and that they also pass behind the traffic light pole that's on the "island." Near the end of the clip with the red circle, Lovelady starts running down the street towards the rail way yard / parking lot, and I think Shelley starts running, too. --Tommy

Steve, you appear to have inferred content in my post that was neither there, nor implied. • At no point did I say a group of people entered the Lunch Room. That is an element you introduced. • You also introduced "both lunchroom encounters" ?? I am aware of only one alleged encounter in the Lunch Room. • Likewise your last two paragraphs also appear to be taking me to task for items that were not in my post. Were these directed at me? Just to clarify, my original post had one main idea: Prayer Man/Oswald may have gone up to the second floor. If he did go up to the second floor, it is possible he may have been seen in the vicinity of the Lunch Room. [...] ...Sean is trying to lay the foundation for the second floor lunchroom encounter never happening at all... [...] Bill makes a good point when he says “it would be physically impossible for Truly not to see Oswald if he was going through the lunchroom door” Steve, A fact that has to be taken into consideration when critiquing the Lunch Room Encounter Story is that, in the story, Baker obviously had to let Oswald get away. Sean is trying to show that the lunch room encounter story, although flawed, was sufficiently plausible for the task at hand, which was to place Oswald significantly closer to the sniper's nest than the front steps, and to let him "get away" in a manner that was believable and therefore not bound to scandalize the Dallas Police Department. Truly's telling Baker that Oswald was a TSBD employee didn't exactly exonerate Oswald, but it did lower his "suspect status" so that, given the urgency of the situation, Baker could let him go. This seemed to be a reasonable thing to do, especially since the alleged encounter puts Oswald a full six floors below the place where Baker thought the shots had come from, and because Oswald appeared to be cool, calm, and collected. Although a Lunch Room Encounter Story was necessary in order to not only put Oswald reasonably close to the sniper's nest but also in a place that was a secluded part of the building where such a private encounter could realistically "happen", and although Baker had to let Oswald "get away," it would have been unrealistic for the fabricators to say, "Baker encountered Oswald in the lunch room and strongly suspected him of killing JFK, but decided to let him go" or "Baker encountered Oswald in the lunch room but didn't suspect Oswald because he didn't notice that he was breathing heavily and sweating profusely." or my favorite "Baker encountered Oswald in the lunch room and was trying to arrest him, but Oswald got away." The story they decided upon was much better than the ones above: "Baker encountered Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room, which is not far from the north west stairs. Due to the fact that Oswald appeared normal and that Baker was told (by the accompanying) superintendent of the building that Oswald was an employee, Baker decided to let Oswald go so that Baker could continue up to the roof to look for the sniper." In the story, given the circumstances, it would have been unprofessional of Baker to arrest a cool, calm, and collected TSBD employee for simply being in the 2nd floor lunch room by himself at the time (if indeed that's where Oswald was). In the story, if Baker had arrested Oswald in the lunch room, I suppose he could have handcuffed him to a drain pipe or something, but Baker still had the roof to search. In the story, Baker makes the rational decision to let Oswald go because he is only a low-level suspect and because Baker has much more urgent things to do. In short, The Lunch Room Encounter Story was very well done. It placed Oswald closer to the sniper's nest and let him get away, plausibly. --Tommy [deleted] Rewritten to make it a little more intelligible. P.S. Thanks for the compliment, Mark Knight!