Thomas Graves

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'. In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance. Sean, OK. In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind. Thanks, --Tommy Edit: I just watched the clip (with the big red circle) frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading it at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot," and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar. Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all. edited and bumped

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'. In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance. Sean, OK. In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind. Thanks, --Tommy Edit: I watched it frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading the clip at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot," and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar. Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all.

What did he lie about? Sean, He said that he and Lovelady were on the "island" when they turned and saw a police officer (Baker?) and Truly at the steps of the TSBD. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly? Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly. Mr. BALL - And Truly? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building? MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in. Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes. --Tommy

I think Gerda Dunckel had it right when she identified these two men as Lovelady and Shelley-- --and that Buell Wesley Frazier is simply misremembering as to what Shelley was wearing that day: If the images were in colour we could of course verify that he has red hair... Sean, I wonder why Shelley would lie about being on the "island?" Was it just a faulty memory? --Tommy

Robin, I thought I once saw a picture that included Hicks, Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, and Dishong standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign. If we can locate that, it might show what those women were wearing ... Edit: Zapruder frame 157 shows the backs of 5 women near the Stemmons Freeway sign. Just a thought, folks: If Shelley and Lovelady were, as Shelley claimed, on the light poled "island" when they turned around and saw Baker and Truly near-or-on-the-front-steps, wouldn't they be visible on said "island" at the beginning of the lower clip? --Tommy bump

Robin, I thought I once saw a picture that included Hicks, Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, and Dishong standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign. If we can locate that, it might show what those women were wearing ... Edit: Zapruder frame 157 shows the backs of 5 women near the Stemmons Freeway sign. Just a thought, folks: If Shelley and Lovelady were, as Shelley claimed, on the light poled "island" when they turned around and saw Baker and Truly near-or-on-the-front-steps, wouldn't they be visible on said "island" at the beginning of the lower clip? --Tommy

Robert, Good point. However.... He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting... --Tommy If I'm not mistaken, I believe both the shutter speed and aperture setting on the Imperial Reflex camera were fixed. It was not that expensive a camera. Another possibility -- the Imperial Reflex has a plastic knob that turns to advance the film. PM is standing in a shadowy area. He might have raised the camera up higher to get a better look at the film sequence indicator to make sure it had been wound correctly for the next shot. A common camera issue in those days. Another possibility: Binoculars.

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Robert, Good point. However.... He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting... --Tommy

Whoever wrote this letter probably confused the still-existent and gay "Brass Rail" bar (in Hillcrest, a couple of miles north of downtown San Diego) for the no-longer-existing, Mafia-owned, downtown San Diego "Gold Rail" bar, which was owned by the most feared hitman on the West Coast, Frank "The Bomp" Bompensiero, and two close relatives of former LA mafia boss Jack Dragna (who, by the way, was an associate of John Roselli). FWIW, a couple of years ago I asked the manager of the Brass Rail if it had ever been owned by a couple of Hungarians. The answer was "No." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Bompensiero http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/1999/mar/11/cover-fateful-check-us-grant/ --Tommy Edited and bumped because Bill Kelley apparently found some value in it way back in March of 2011. Well, at least it didn't go "unnoticed" by him and that really really really made my day. LOL

Hello Ray Thank you for posting this interview. Oddly enough, this is the only place I have ever seen Baker actually say the pigeons flew up from the roof of the TSBD. In his WC testimony, he makes a vague reference about the pigeons: "Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see? Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it. Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be? Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building. Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm? Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner. Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where? Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner. Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around. Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from? Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner." Now, towards the end of his testimony, he describes being on the roof of the TSBD and almost tells the WC that the pigeons were flushed from the roof of the TSBD. "Mr. BELIN - On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do? Mr. BAKER - Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type. Mr. BELIN - Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building? Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir. Mr. BELIN - Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack? Mr. BAKER - As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime. Mr. BELIN - All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do? Mr. BAKER - No indications that anyone would be around there. Mr. BELIN - Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it? Mr. BAKER - No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there. Mr. BELIN - What did you do? SENATOR COOPER - You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. SENATOR COOPER - Had they been disturbed in any way? Mr. BAKER - No, sir." "No, sir. They had all...." Had all what? Been flushed off of the roof by the sound of a gunshot? Finally, we come to the interview you gave us. "A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me." Finally, Baker tells us where the pigeons were at the time of the first shot. It may seem a bit strange that I am so interested in a flock of pigeons being flushed off the roof of the TSBD but, think about how unlikely this is. The 6th floor window was two storeys down from the roof, and there was a five foot parapet around the perimeter of the roof. If the pigeons were actually on the roof, and not the parapet, would they not be somewhat sheltered from the blast of a rifle pointed away from the TSBD? What is far more probable, is a shot from the Dal-Tex Building pointed down Elm St. The pigeons on the roof would then be inside the cone of influence created by the muzzle blast of the rifle and would indeed have been flushed off the roof. Would most of the pigeons sitting on all of the buildings in Dealey Plaza have taken flight upon hearing a shot coming from any building, or would only the pigeons sitting on the shooter's building have taken off en mass? I'm not a pigeon expert, but the former seems reasonable to me. Was the roof of the TSBD the favorite place for Dealey Plaza pigeons to sit? --Tommy

Because maybe Sawyer asked them, "Well, fellers, did ya run into anybody up there?" (Just an idea.) --Tommy

At 03:58 of this video, could the man scratching his neck be David Sanchez Morales? Does anyone know who took this short clip of Oswald being arrested on August 9,1963 in New Orleans? John "Jack" T. Martin? James Douglas? A New Orleans TV station? --Tommy

From the Warren Commission testimony of Miss Victoria Elizabeth Adams, April 7, 1964: "Mr. BELIN - That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be relevant? Miss ADAMS - There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby. And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I don't know whether that is relevant or what. Mr. BELIN - That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this? Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles." Very interesting. Now for an obvious question: Has Victoria Adams been spotted, standing by the motorcycles or elsewhere, in any of the films? [from the Coast to Coast website] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ6ul0Lwp2A Could the man she was talking about be in this film? --Tommy

[...] Here is a direct link to a thread containing static images and moving Gifs ot the man and the area in question. It's a long thread with many interesting diversions and fantastic graphical analysis by some of the most talented and dedicated photo analysis people in the JFK community. Here is one example of the standard of stabilized Gif construction which is a major feature at my forum. This one shows clearly the man in question, and Baker running towards the entrance. Credit Gerda Dunckel Enjoy the thread - Link Below http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html Has anyone noticed the person who slowly stands up or goes up one step, backwards, in front of Prayer Man? Also, notice the suit-wearing man at the base of the steps on the left who waves Baker up the steps with his left hand and pivots out of the way. Could that be Roy Truly? --Tommy [...] bumped

You're right, Sean. The guy in that video they're mistaking for PM looks like he's wearing a suit and tie. --Tommy

Robert, holding a coke with both hands is a little unusual but by no means unheard of... If Prayer Man is taking periodic sips, his hands' default position will be a bit higher than in the photo above. I actually came across a classic old-school small coke bottle yesterday and tried holding it in the posture of Prayer Man. The stance was surprisingly natural and comfortable. There is of course also the possibility that something other than a coke is in Prayer Man's two hands. Our old friend Captain Fritz might be able to offer us one interesting pointer: Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom? Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola. A sandwich? Whether Coke, sandwich or neither-- Is it just me, or do Prayer Man's hands begin to lower ever so slightly just as the gif is reaching the end? Sean, The (apparent) lowering of PM's hands might be an optical illusion caused by the slow rising of the person in front of him (who is either standing up from a kneeling or sitting position or, perhaps, going up one step backwards). --Tommy

Sean Murphy wrote: [L]et's consider Baker's supposed actions that day. He believes shots have been fired from the top of the building. He has dashed into the building and, after a maddening delay at the elevators, begun his ascent. Just one floor up in what he knows is going to be a high climb up a multi-storey building he comes out onto the landing and, as he is turning to hit the next flight of stairs, notices an indeterminate movement behind the glass pane of a closed door a good distance away-- There is nothing intrinsically suspicious about this movement, and certainly no sign that the person behind it has just passed through the closed door. Yet Baker decides to interrupt his already delayed dash up the stairs and go after this person. [...] (emphasis added by T. Graves) Sean, I respectfully disagree. It looks like officer Baker was only about 20 feet away from that lunchroom vestibule door when (he claimed) he saw Oswald through its window. (For orientation purposes, the photograph labeled "Commission Exhibit No. 498" was taken from about where the circled number "22" is on the diagram. http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=139038 ) Looking at the diagram, it seems that whoever Baker saw (if he saw anyone) must have been quite close to the window in order to be visible from stairs/stairwell area, and must have either 1) just gone through the door from the stairs/stairwell landing area into the "inside vestibule," 2) been getting ready to come though the door from the "inside vestibule", or 3) been looking (or getting ready to look) through the door's window towards the stairs/stairwell landing. I can think of no other reason to be in that strange little "inside vestibule" area, and I don't think a person standing inside the lunchroom proper would have been visible to Baker through that window. (If you scroll down about 1/3 of the way on the following link, you'll see that Roy Truly calls the area where number "24" is in the diagram the "inside vestibule.") --Tommy

[...] Here is a direct link to a thread containing static images and moving Gifs ot the man and the area in question. It's a long thread with many interesting diversions and fantastic graphical analysis by some of the most talented and dedicated photo analysis people in the JFK community. Here is one example of the standard of stabilized Gif construction which is a major feature at my forum. This one shows clearly the man in question, and Baker running towards the entrance. Credit Gerda Dunckel Enjoy the thread - Link Below http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html Has anyone noticed the person who slowly stands up or goes up one step, backwards, in front of Prayer Man? Also, notice the suit-wearing man at the base of the steps on the left who waves Baker up the steps with his left hand and pivots out of the way. Could that be Roy Truly? --Tommy PS: Unrelated comment. It seems that the main purpose of this thread is to try to prove that "Prayer Man" was Oswald and, therefore, that Oswald couldn't possibly have been a shooter. Rhetorical question: If we can do that, would it prove that Oswald wasn't wittingly involved in the conspiracy? (No, I'm not saying that he was.) augmented and bumped

[...] Here is a direct link to a thread containing static images and moving Gifs ot the man and the area in question. It's a long thread with many interesting diversions and fantastic graphical analysis by some of the most talented and dedicated photo analysis people in the JFK community. Here is one example of the standard of stabilized Gif construction which is a major feature at my forum. This one shows clearly the man in question, and Baker running towards the entrance. Credit Gerda Dunckel Enjoy the thread - Link Below http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html Has anyone noticed the person who slowly stands up or goes up one step, backwards, in front of "Prayer Man?" Also, notice the suit-wearing man at the base of the steps who waves Baker up the steps with his left hand and pivots out of the way. Could that be Truly? --Tommy bump

[...] Here is a direct link to a thread containing static images and moving Gifs ot the man and the area in question. It's a long thread with many interesting diversions and fantastic graphical analysis by some of the most talented and dedicated photo analysis people in the JFK community. Here is one example of the standard of stabilized Gif construction which is a major feature at my forum. This one shows clearly the man in question, and Baker running towards the entrance. Credit Gerda Dunckel Enjoy the thread - Link Below http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html Has anyone noticed the person who slowly stands up or goes up one step, backwards, in front of Prayer Man? Also, notice the suit-wearing man at the base of the steps on the left who waves Baker up the steps with his left hand and pivots out of the way. Could that be Roy Truly? --Tommy PS: Unrelated comment. It seems that the main "purpose" of this thread is to prove that "Prayer Man" was Oswald and, therefore, that Oswald couldn't possibly have been a shooter. If we can do that, would it prove that Oswald wasn't wittingly involved in the conspiracy? (I'm not saying that he was.)

Apologies Bill (and Tommy), I should have phrased my question a bit more clearly. I was asking how Oswald knew that he himself had been on the first floor at the time of the shooting. But no matter, the text you've highlighted in bold brings us quite nicely to the same question. According to Fritz, Oswald said: a ) that he was having lunch on the first floor about the time the President was shot b ) that he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in. Bill, do you believe Oswald really made both those claims in custody? Sean, Would this be a good way to put it?-- "How could Oswald have known that the shooting happened while he was on the first floor?" Thanks, --Tommy

[...] Did Oswald tell Fritz he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting? If so, how did he know? [...] Sean, How did who know what? Thanks, --Tommy

Robin, Thanks for posting this. Great work. Now, seeing as how we "JFK assassination researchers" are so easily confused, I'd like to make a suggestion. Please rewrite the last part of the above sentence so it reads "...but is actually Karen's mother, Doris Mumford." Just an idea. Thanks, --Tommy

AT the price of a pint in Dublin today everyone is a teetotaler. I've been a teetotaler for more than a year now. That would explain why I can't see the pistol in officer Baker's hand or "College Boy" high up on the TSBD steps for that matter. Perhaps I should drink a bottle of Jameson. That should do the trick. LOL --Thomas "Tommy" Mahon (biological)