Thomas Graves

delete; double post

[...] [1] The connection of the CIA in all this is their nominal bankrolling of the DRE and of Ed Butler's INCA propaganda organization. But they were funders, and it the Cuban Exiles were motivated to be their own leaders. I say the CIA was observing Oswald, nothing more (unless I see material evidence). [2] Further, Tommy, I think your theory errs when you hastily conclude that the right-wingers didn't "care who they burned" when they made Oswald into their patsy. [...] Dear Paul, 1) May I suggest Oswald and the CIA by John Newman and The Man Who Knew Too Much by Dick Russell?. 2) Did I say that the right wingers didn't care whom they burned, Paul? I was a bit more specific than that, wasn't I? I said, ".......rogue elements of the CIA, ONI, CID, etc." I suppose I should have included "of the FOI and the FBI," as well. Warmest regards, --Tommy

"...Oswald was [an] extreme right-winger burned by his political compatriots because of his leftist bonifides." Works for me, John. I don't think Oswald was a true left-winger because for some reason I just can't see a left-wing kid's enlisting in the Marine Corps, and trying to do so while still underage at that. That's what I call a "gung ho-ish," super patriot kind of kid. And I don't think he underwent some kind of authentic socio-economic/political transformation while in the Marines, either. I think his left-wing/socialist/Marxist performances were to establish bonifides so that people like Alan Dulles, Richard Helms, James Angleton, William Harvey, Guy Bannister, and/or David Atlee Phillips could use him in their operations. Oswald was happy to do so because it fulfilled his Walter Mitty-ish, "I led Three Lives" psychological needs to be a patriotic, Commie-busting secret agent. Regardless, I don't see why Oswald's "political compatriots" (reactionary elements of CIA, ONI, CID, etc) would have cared who they burned to further their goals. --Tommy Edit: Based on the assumption that this forum encourages "thinking outside the box," how's this for a weird idea. Maybe Oswald was such a gung-ho, clever (and foolish), super patriot that he figured out a way (maybe with a little help from David Ferrie?) to get into Russia via Finland and become a free lance agent who then volunteered his services to the CIA with the hopes of becoming a paid double (or triple?) agent. And who, of course, was later manipulated by rogue elements of the CIA (Angleton?) into the JFK assassination patsy role !! "Nah, in that case, ..." edited and bumped

I suppose there was plenty of time for him to be in Dallas on Friday for the Big Event and then in MC (to pay off someone?) on Saturday or Sunday. And I he could always say, "Yeah, I was in Dallas. I'm from Ft. Worth, you know, and I was just visiting family and friends on my way to Mexico City." In this photo his face resembles the face of the man crossing Elm Street in the Cancellare: --Tommy

"...Oswald was [an] extreme right-winger burned by his political compatriots because of his leftist bonifides." Works for me, John. I don't think Oswald was a true left-winger because for some reason I just can't see a left-wing kid's enlisting in the Marine Corps, and trying to do so while still underage at that. That's what I call a "gung ho-ish," super patriot kind of kid. And I don't think he underwent some kind of authentic socio-economic/political transformation while in the Marines, either. I think his left-wing/socialist/Marxist performances were to establish bonifides so that people like Alan Dulles, Richard Helms, James Angleton, William Harvey, Guy Bannister, and/or David Atlee Phillips could use him in their operations. Oswald was happy to do so because it fulfilled his Walter Mitty-ish, "I led Three Lives" psychological needs to be a patriotic, Commie-busting secret agent. Regardless, I don't see why Oswald's "political compatriots" (reactionary elements of CIA, ONI, CID, etc) would have cared who they burned to further their goals. --Tommy Edit: How's this for a weird idea. Maybe Oswald was such a gung-ho, clever (and foolish), super patriot that he figured out a way (maybe with a little help from David Ferrie?) to get into Russia via Finland and become a free lance agent with the hopes of becoming a paid double (or triple?) agent !!

Not really, Don, although Richard Case Nagell seemed to think that he was. I put it (in the form of a question) in the title mostly to attract attention to the thread and to stimulate debate. I suspect that no one here believes Oswald was a willing participant although IMHO it is logically possible. Everyone here seems to fall into one of four "camps": 1) Oswald was an innocent victim, 2) Oswald was an informant or agent who had penetrated the conspiracy but was manipulated into the patsy role, 3) Oswald was involved in some other operation that got penetrated and "piggybacked" by the conspirators, and 4) Oswald did it all by himself. But, interestingly, no one wants to consider the possibility that Oswald was involved as a willing conspirator. I'm not saying that he was but I'm wondering whether or not you find abhorrent the possibility that was. If so, why? --Tommy

Don, Three possibilities (so far): 1) He was told to monitor some kind of activity inside the TSBD 2) He was waiting for a phone call 3) He was waiting inside to be paid for his rifle he'd brought to work. "I'll pay you in the lunch room, Lee, right when JFK is going by. That way all the attention will be on JFK and Jackie and no one will be paying any attention to us." --Tommy edited with #3 added

Dear Mr. Josephs, That's a pretty wild idea. Ordering Oswald to take the blame for killing the president! I can just imagine the conversation: "Yes, sir. But I really don't want to, sir. Do I have to, sir?" "Son, If you take the rap, we'll make sure them Texas jailers give you anything you want to eat before you walk "the last mile" to visit Old Sparky ! You can even have some fried chicken!" "Gosh, sir! Uhhh.., hmmm.... Promise, sir ??" "Absolutely! But if you won't do it, then by golly we'll have to court martial you again!" LOL Sincerely, --Tommy PS In another part of your post you seem to be saying that Oswald couldn't have been part of the conspiracy because he tried to get away.

Or was he just an innocent victim who was somehow manipulated into being the patsy? Are there any other possibilities (other than "Oswald did it all by himself")? In other words, could his "involvement" have been as an undercover agent who (thought he was) monitoring the conspiracy? --Tommy

Why didn't Altgens take any photos at this point? Too busy focusing his camera? Advancing the film? In a state of shock? Just watching the action through the view finder? All of the above? --Tommy

Robert, Your pathological obsession with sex is indicated by your inclusion of the phrase "sex affair" in the title of this thread when "love affair" would have sufficed. Likely excuse: You just "slipped it in there" to attract attention. Right? Sincerely, --Tommy

I don't play that game Tommy. You should know that by now. Tink's waterboy does not play games.... why folks waste time on this subject matter with you is amazing... lmao! Well lookie, lookie, here come heal. All hat and no cow.... I don't play games. I just tell it like it is, and then I prove it. Can you say the same? Lets do it again since its been derailed by those who can't deal with reality.... Craig, Thank you for showing us, in very graphic and convincing detail, the first head shot. Sincerely, --Tommy

Lol, what's the matter bob? Cat got your tongue? Now you care to get back on topic? Maybe you can try and save davie Jo and jimbos bacon. Oh wait, you don't have the chops. Sorry. Craig, So JFK's head was hit by two nearly simultaneous shots, right? The first one from behind and second one from the side or the front. Works for me. --Tommy I have no idea. Craig, Do you think JFK was slammed back and to his left by a neuro-muscular reaction to being hit in his head just once? Kind of like that goat on youtube? --Tommy

Lol, what's the matter bob? Cat got your tongue? Now you care to get back on topic? Maybe you can try and save davie Jo and jimbos bacon. Oh wait, you don't have the chops. Sorry. Craig, So JFK's head was hit by two nearly simultaneous shots, right? The first one from behind and second one from the side or the front. Works for me. --Tommy

Ian, Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! It's Teddy Roosevelt! OK, hmmm..., let's see. Well, there are seven different letters in "Roosevelt" and there's a double "O" in there, too. Oh My God! Double "O" + 7 = 007 ! That's it! That's it! That's it! Ian Flemming was THE MASTERMIND! --Tommy PS. Dang! They sure did make teensy-weensie photographs in 1963! Wonder how Ozzie did that. Hmmm... PPS. Hey! Betcha it was originally a teensy-weensie photograph of Alan Dulles but that evil 'ol Harry D. Holmes done intercepted it and altered it! PPPS. Tom's fantastic discovery of these hard-to-see photographic images of the bad guys on the label proves that the intended recipient of the package must have had really-really good eyes! Either that or a vivid imagination. Hmmm.....

OK, Ian. What size do you wear? LOL --Tommy PS-- I take an extra large. But then again I did see a huge number "601" in the clouds today right next to the spittin' images of Bebe Rebozo and Jim Di Eugenio! I mean, you know, I swear! BTW, I wonder how Oswald put such small photographic images on that label? Hey! Maybe it had something to do with when he worked at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. You know, from 10/12/62 thru 4/6/63? It's amazing that Oswald knew what was going down that far in advance! Or do you think maybe he did it later in his boarding house room? Hey! How about in Ruth Paine's bathroom or at the YMCA?

Nor did they try to find and question the (IMHO) equally suspicious, radio-packin' Dark Complected Man who just happened to be standing near TUM, "waving" at JFK (with his arm suspiciously high in the air) and who, after the hit, just happened to sit down on the curb right next to TUM for a couple of minutes and (IMHO) can be seen talking into his antennaed "walkie talkie" radio while sitting there next to TUM. Isn't it interesting that neither of these guys hung around to volunteer any eye-witness information to the authorities? Nope, they like split, man, in opposite directions. On the other hand, how long should it have taken the authorities to realize that it would be nice if these two guys were located and questioned? Did they try to find them or anyone else for that matter? I suppose it's reasonable to assume that photos or (non-Zapruder) films showing TUM and DCM would first have to be developed and printed and made available for the DPD, the SS, and/or the FBI to view, in order to spot them and be cognizant of their suspicious actions and/or their potential value as eye witnesses. So, how long did that take? A couple of days? A couple of weeks? a couple of years? Just wondering. Also wondering if any of the motorcycle cops or guys in/on the Queen Mary/Halfback SS follow-up car noticed TUM or DCM just before or during the assassination... --Tommy

I don't mind his book so much. I just think some of his comments over the last few years are not entirely correct and some of his early interviews with key individuals were very poor to say the least as I have pointed out elsewhere. His most recent hollow comments about the Umbrella Man were pretty shoddy. Has the Erroll Morris film been released yet? Lee, I agree. I was not impressed by his youtubed attempt to refute TUM's being a conspirator. Too emotion and not enough substance to persuade me to his viewpoint on this, I'm afraid. --Tommy

Hi Kathy, Good Questions. The Photo of Bush in front of the Book Depository sure looks just like him and I found some from the Parkland Hospital that look just like him also but it is mostly from the back and just a little to the side. Jim Jim, if you are able to, could you post the photos of Bush at Parkland? Kathy I well give it a shot... 002_Bush...Parkland.jpg 003_BushAtParkland.jpg Look Familiar folks? Notice the bulge above his left shoulder....It seems the cordinators had there own frequency. Now I could be leapin in logic here but When I first sent them to Gary at the 6th floor museam, he said the man was too short to be Bush. A friend of mine in Detroit calculated the height of the Police car and the curb he propbaly would be standing on and said the man was 6 feet 2" ...a match there. Then he said it was a another guy he knew but never came up with the name. He said he would ask George Bush for the museam What he was doin in Dallas when he told the FBI about the possible student threat to Kennedy when Bush says Please keep this confidential and I am on my way to Dallas". I can't recall would be typical. Jim Jim, Who are you talking about in the photos? The dude in the foreground? He's wearing glasses. Did Bush wear glasses in 1963? Sincerely, --Tommy

Guys, IF Oswald killed Kennedy, maybe he did so only to draw attention to these coded messages so that fifty years later we would decode them and realize how clever he was! Just kidding. I'm sure he thought the package would be received by someone who knew the code and would spring him from jail before anything really really bad could happen to him... --Tommy

Tom, It's all rather complicated, isn't it. Wouldn't you think Oswald expected the coded message to be noticed and solved right away? And to think that the Internet hadn't even been invented yet! Hey! Maybe that's why he was trying to reach John Hurt! You know, so he could decode it. Look on the bright side, Tom. Even though you've been working on it for quite a while now at least you did have a major revelation about it just last evening! (Somehow this all reminds me of Bevilaqua's decoding of the text of The Manchurian Candidate...) Sincerely, --Tommy At least he's trying something new and is looking for answers concerning a piece of evidence that no one else has ever been able to explain AND is no longer in the National Archives. Lee, Point taken. I'm just wondering if it is realistic to think that Oswald expected that a coded message as elaborate as this one would be noticed and solved right away. Thinking out loud here: I suppose the noticing of such a message would take longer than the solving of it, so if Oswald really did put a coded message on the package and expected it to be solved (or decoded) quickly, he must have intended for it o be received by someone who knew in advance that there would be a message on it. Otherwise, he must have willing to wait fifty years for it to be discovered and solved by some JFK assassination researchers... Sincerely, --Tommy

Tommy, They weren't referring to any photographs. Remember, the Commission didn't use the autopsy photos. Kellerman's first line, "right below that wound" is referring to the exit wound he had just described. This is the testimony immediately preceeding what I posted above: Mr. SPECTER: I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy. Mr. KELLERMAN: OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size. Mr. SPECTER: Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct? Mr. KELLERMAN: Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head. Mr. SPECTER: Indicating the rear portion of the head. Mr. KELLERMAN: Yes. Mr. SPECTER: More to the right side of the head? Mr. KELLERMAN: Right. This was removed. Mr. SPECTER: When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this? Mr. KELLERMAN: The skull part was removed. Mr. SPECTER: All right. Representative FORD: Above the ear and back? Mr. KELLERMAN: To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. About right in here. Mr. SPECTER: When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor? Mr. KELLERMAN: It was absent when I saw him. Mr. SPECTER: Fine. Proceed. Great. A police department homicide interrogation without a stenographer or tape recorder, and some important Warren Commission testimony taken without the pertinent photographs. Fantastic. Never mind. Martin, are you capable of posting an image of man's head showing where you think Kellerman was referring to when describing JFK's head wounds? Because the more I read about it, the more confused I get? Thanks, --Tommy LOL And this is the investigation guys like Bugliosi have no problem with! My understanding of Kellerman's testimony places the wound about where the small, whiteish bit of matter appears in the autopsy photo. Martin, But it's interesting that Kellerman apparently agrees with Specter's statement/question that it's to the right of the ear. Since this photo wasn't available to them they probably weren't talking about JFK's head as viewed from this particular perspective, so Specter's statement, "about the lower third of the ear" must mean as viewed in a normal sitting or standing position. --Tommy