Thomas Graves

Dear Martin, Yeah, and his use of profanity in it probably hastened its demise. Sincerely, --Tommy BTW, I say good for John and the moderators (minus Mr. Scully, of course).

"...it would benefit all of to know whether we have special privileges or not." Dear Martin, Yes! Yes! Yes! And, specifically, it would benefit us letting us know who can say, for example, "Your mother wears army boots!" but can't say, "In an infantry platoon!" Sincerely, --Tommy

Paul, A very reasonable post! Question: Do you think John's future warnings (if any are given) should be done privately, or "in public" on the Forum? Sincerely, --Tommy

THIS. This is spot-on. And it applies to John. The imbalance and unfairness of John's decision is absolutely unbelievable Dear Robert and Martin, If that's the case, then perhaps Lifton should be kicked out, too! Sincerely, --Tommy PS Funny, but verbiage like "absolutely unbelievable" reminds me of Fetzer. LOL!

Comic relief? (from Wikipedia: "Comic relief is the inclusion of a humorous character, scene or witty dialogue in an otherwise serious work, often to relieve tension.") John, Good! Let Di Eugenio and Scully serve as examples of what we can expect if we verbally attack and defame other members. We've been warned. Thank you, --Tommy Really Tommy? Two questions for you 1. When did Jim "verbally attack and defame other members" in a way that singled him out from everyone who retains membership here? 2. Why are Jim and Tom not entitled to a warning like the rest of us? Sorry Martin, I guess I should have said (tongue in cheek?), "Let Jimbo serve as an example of what we can expect if we are more rabidly overly-opinionated than the general membership." Comic relief is right. Sincerely, --Tommy

John, Good! Let Di Eugenio and Scully serve as examples of what we can expect if we defame or libel other members. We've been warned. Thank you, --Tommy

Tommy, many thanks for this correction. It was not a "dishonorable discharge" from the Marines that Oswald received, but an "undesirable discharge." That is a significant difference. However, I think my main point still stands, because we still have testimony from attorney Dean Andrews that Lee Harvey Oswald sought legal advice to upgrade his Marine discharge status. And lest somebody suspect that Dean Andrews committed perjury, we also have a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Secretary of the Navy, John Connally (later governor of Texas), requesting help to upgrade his Marine discharge status. In other words, this "undesirable discharge" status does not appear to me to be a reasonable outcome of a successful spy-training mission in Russia. It seems to me that Lee Harvey Oswald botched his training mission somewhere. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, As of 6/08/13, you've made at least two misstatements about Oswald on this thread: 1) That he was given a dishonorable discharge 2) That he was a cryptographer or "involved with codebreaking" Pray tell, how in the world can we take you seriously if you can't get your facts straight? Warmest regards, --Tommy

Dear Paul, Cryptography? Oswald was "involved with" cryptography?? As far as I can remember, that's the first time I've hurt [sic] that. Could you please freshen my memory? Sincerely, --Tommy [...] [Oswald] had a bright future ahead of him if he could only cooperate and play nice with others. But he had to do things his own way. Dear Paul, Reminds me a bit of you, Paul. Except that, IMHO, you are just a tad obsequious, a bit pedantic, and slippery as all get out! LOL Sincerely, --Tommy PS-- So now you're saying that, due to the postulations of a certain Mr. Tom Hume, you can safely assume that Oswald was into CODE BREAKING? Give me a break. Just because Oswald's work as an Aviation Electronics Operator in the Marine Corps may have involved his being familiar with some "radar codes" (more likely radio codes and call signs, Paul), and the fact that he at one time did some rather menial work for a company which happened to have microdot technology (Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall) and the fact that he happened to write the word "micro dot" in his address book doesn't necessarily mean that he was a "CODE BREAKER" now does it? Jeez.

Mark, Yes, and it's a good thing that he's covering it again because if he wasn't, I probably wouldn't be reading about it right now! Sincerely, --Tommy

Dear Paul, Cryptography? Oswald was "involved with" cryptography?? As far as I can remember, that's the first time I've hurt [sic] that. Could you please freshen my memory? Sincerely, --Tommy

Does anyone know if Delgado is still alive? If so, how to contact him? Thanks, --Tommy I would like to ask Delgado about the time he, Oswald, and a couple other Marines went to a homosexual bar, at Oswald's suggestion, called "The Flamingo" which Delgado said was a mile or two out in the countryside from Tijuana, Mexico. Delgado said Oswald knew how to get there and seemed to be familiar with the joint. I'm trying to figure out if the place was mafia-owned. The old mafioso guy I knew in San Diego owned some bars in Tijuana with his brother, "Papa Tony" Mirabile, before they moved from TJ to San Diego in the late thirties. They had previously lived in Los Angeles from 1920 until 1924 (and before that, in Detroit for thirteen years) where they were associated with LA boss Jack Dragna who, in turn, was associated with one Johnny Roselli. Also, it's interesting to note that, according to Dick Russell in TMWKTM, when Oswald was stationed in Japan, he may have been used by a US intelligence agency in its attempt to get a Russian, Colonel Eroshkin, to defect to the US, and that LHO may have tried to compromise Eroshin by engaging him in a homosexual relationship. re-bumped

Tommy, the phrase, "low-level spy training mission" comes from Richard Sprague, The Taking of America (1976). I find his scenario compelling. The idea is that these were young men, trained in the military but not seasoned spies. They were young enough so that this would be their first "spy" mission, and so it was "probationary" to borrow a term from private industry. [...] Dear Paul, Well, do you buy into the idea, conveyed to Dick Russell by Richard Case Nagell, that Oswald was already actively involved in U.S. intelligence or counterintelligence activities (e.g. the Eroshin and Fugisawa affairs) in Japan in the mid-to-late 1950's? If so, then wouldn't that make him a somewhat "seasoned spy" by the time he "defected" to Russia in late 1959? Sincerely, --Tommy

To answer your first question, Tommy, former CIA agent Victor Marchetti told Anthony Summers that in 1959, the USA sought to obtain detailed information out of the USSR, and this included "all sorts of activities," including ONI program which involved from 36 to 40 young men who were made to appear disenchanted, poor, American youths who had become turned off by the USA and wanted to see what the USSR was all about. They were sent into the USSR with the specific intention that the Soviets would pick them up and 'track' them if they suspected them of being US agents, or recruit them as KGB agents. So, Marchetti believed that Oswald was one of these ~40 guys in this ONI program. [...] Dear Paul, That's all fine and dandy. Sounds plausible. I have no problem with it. But it doesn't sound like a "training mission" to me. So why did you refer to Oswald's sojourn in Russia as a "training mission" in some of your earlier posts, this thread? When you say that Oswald "bungled his training mission" in Russia, what exactly are you referring to? Regardless, when you say that he "bungled it," are you perhaps suggesting that, although, as Marchetti implied, Oswald was sent to Russia as part of the ONI's false defector program just to 1) enable the monitoring of the tracking of him by the KGB as a putative U.s. spy, and/or 2) to perhaps even be recruited by (!) the KGB, he "blew it" by letting it be known early on to both sides that he intended to tell the Russians "something of special interest" that he knew about as a result of his being an Aviation Electronics Operator in the Marine Corps and working at a U2 base for awhile? In other words, was Oswald "jumping the gun" or "putting the cart before the horse" by making this offer to the Russians on his own initiative, and thereby "blowing" his original reason for being sent there? If not, then please enlighten me, in a non-pedantic way if possible, how exactly he bungled this so-called "training mission." Also, once again: I am open to the possibility, however, that Oswald went to Russia not on a "training mission" per se but on his own initiative, or even with the help of some private person or group. Why? Well, maybe because he wanted to ingratiate (or re-ingratiate?) himself with some US intelligence agency so that he could fulfill his James Bond and "I Led Three Lives" fantasies (again?)and become a U.S. spy (again?), and succeeded at doing so but was very cleverly manipulated thereafter. Just a thought: Maybe your General Walker helped him get into Russia? Warmest regards, --Tommy

Well, Tommy, we need to seek that point at which Lee Harvey Oswald would finally receive regular employment from the CIA (or FBI or ONI). The trouble I have with your hypothesis is that if Lee Harvey Oswald was successful in his spy-training mission, then why didn't Oswald join Richard Helms, James Jesus Angleton, David Atlee Phillips and all the other guys with fat incomes and single family housing and a new car? That is, why wasn't Oswald given a real job? Obviously that is what he wanted. If he was so successful, then why was he denied? The fact that Oswald lived like a pauper does not suggest success to me. One can work underground and still live comfortably. It seems more likely that the CIA (etc.) rejected Oswald. He botched his mission. If one wishes to explain how a CIA agent could be made into a patsy, this is the most straightforward way; Oswald wasn't really a CIA agent, he was a "wannabe" CIA agent. Thus it would have been relatively easy to make Oswald into a patsy. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Why do you call Oswald's lengthy sojourn in Russia a "training mission?" Training for what ? Why would you send a "spy trainee" to Russia for 2.5 years during the depths of the Cold War? To teach him how to get in quickly via Helsinki? To give him an opportunity to improve his Russian via the "total immersion" method? Do we know of anyone else in the military reserves who became. or already was, a "spy trainee" and who was told to live in a communist country in the Fifties or Sixties as part of his or her training? Isn't there is evidence, as told to Dick Russell by Richard Case Nagell, that Oswald was already actively involved in intelligence or counterintelligence activities in Japan in the late 1950's? Couldn't Oswald have been manipulated from early on in his low-level spy career by being told that he'd be provided with employment for the time being and "really taken care of" financially "later on?" Didn't Oswald tell someone in New Orleans that his "ship had come in?" What kind of "fat cat" good-paying "real job" could the borderline dysfunctional Oswald have performed successfully, anyway? Warmest regards, --Tommy PS-- I am open to the possibility that Oswald went to Russia not on a "training mission" per se but on his own initiative, or with the help of some private person or group. Why? Well, maybe because he wanted to ingratiate (or re-ingratiate?) himself with some US intelligence agency so that he could fulfill his James Bond and "I Led Three Lives" fantasies (again?)and become a U.S. spy (again?), and succeeded at doing so but was very cleverly manipulated thereafter. Just a thought: Maybe your General Walker helped him get into Russia? --Tommy

Well, Tommy, we need to seek that point at which Lee Harvey Oswald would finally receive regular employment from the CIA (or FBI or ONI). The trouble I have with your hypothesis is that if Lee Harvey Oswald was successful in his spy-training mission, then why didn't Oswald join Richard Helms, James Jesus Angleton, David Atlee Phillips and all the other guys with fat incomes and single family housing and a new car? That is, why wasn't Oswald given a real job? Obviously that is what he wanted. If he was so successful, then why was he denied? The fact that Oswald lived like a pauper does not suggest success to me. One can work underground and still live comfortably. It seems more likely that the CIA (etc.) rejected Oswald. He botched his mission. If one wishes to explain how a CIA agent could be made into a patsy, this is the most straightforward way; Oswald wasn't really a CIA agent, he was a "wannabe" CIA agent. Thus it would have been relatively easy to make Oswald into a patsy. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Why do you call Oswald's lengthy sojourn in Russia a "training mission?" Training for what ? Why would you send a "spy trainee" to Russia for 2.5 years during the depths of the Cold War? To teach him how to get in quickly via Helsinki? To give him an opportunity to improve his Russian via the "total immersion" method? Do we know of anyone else in the military reserves who became. or already was, a "spy trainee" and who was told to live in a communist country in the Fifties or Sixties as part of his or her training? Isn't there is evidence, as told to Dick Russell by Richard Case Nagell, that Oswald was already actively involved in intelligence or counterintelligence activities in Japan in the late 1950's? Couldn't Oswald have been manipulated from early on in his low-level spy career by being told that he'd be provided with employment for the time being and "really taken care of" financially "later on?" Didn't Oswald tell someone in New Orleans that his "ship had come in?" What kind of "fat cat" good-paying "real job" could the borderline dysfunctional Oswald have performed successfully, anyway? Warmest regards, --Tommy

Paul Trejo said: [Oswald's] "undesirable discharge" status does not appear to me to be a reasonable outcome of a successful spy-training mission in Russia. It seems to me that Lee Harvey Oswald botched his training mission somewhere. Paul, The following was "lifted" and expanded from my ongoing, constantly-morphing, and superseded post, this thread: If Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" to Russia in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. And if that was the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead. Ironically, Oswald could have just been trying to "upgrade" his misperceived "dishonorable" discharge status to the "undesirable" one that he'd originally been promised! I think it's logical to assume that Oswald's actually getting an (unbeknownst-to-him) "undesirable discharge" after defecting actually argues for his being a US spy. I mean, if he'd been a true defector and traitor, wouldn't he really have gotten a dishonorable discharge? Could it be that Marguerite Oswald was intentionally misinformed by someone as to what kind of discharge her son had been given one year after "defecting?" You know, in order to manipulate LHO in some special way? --Tommy

Paul,Are you suggesting that just anyone was selected for the 'false defector program', or are you saying that LHO traveled to Russia, by way of Finland, completely on his own initiative? Michael, I find it complicated that: (1) Oswald was dishonorably discharged from the Marines; and (2) Oswald struggled for a long time to upgrade that status. This suggests a scenario with two options. If Oswald entered a "false defector program" as a low-level spy-training mission, which was also a probationary period, then his performance in this mission would determine its outcome. So, it is plausible that:(I) Oswald failed to perform as well as hoped -- perhaps because of taking a Russian wife or another unexpected behavior; or (ii) Oswald successfully completed his training mission, and was invited to continue another mission even deeper under-cover, which would entail a dishonorable discharge from the Marines, and a fake struggle to upgrade that status. I find that option (ii) lacks the ring of realism. If Oswald passed the training mission, and was invited to continue another mission, it is more likely that he would have been hired as a full-time CIA (or FBI or ONI) employee. Evidently he was not hired full-time. So, the better likelihood is that Oswald failed to complete his "Russian defector" mission satisfactorily, and he broke his probationary period. He was not hired as a full-time Intelligence agent, and he was invited to try again some other time -- when he got his act together. But struggle as he might, Lee Harvey Oswald never got his act together. That's how it appears to me, Michael. Furthermore, as I've noted in the past, the fact that Oswald preferred double-agent scenarios made him more vulnerable, rather than more valuable, for Intelligence operations. Hemming, Nagell and Dean all had pasts on both sides of the Cold War (quasi-double-agents) and all three of them feared that they were subject to scape-goating by one agency or another. It seems that double-agents were doubly at risk to become patsies in Intelligence skullduggery. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, I'm afraid you're mistaken about the "dishonorable discharge" bit. Oswald may have mistakenly assumed that he was appealing a serious "dishonorable discharge." Why? Well, because about a year after he had (allegedly) defected to the Soviet Union, his mother relayed to him the incorrect information that that was what he had recently been given! But Oswald never was given a "dishonorable discharge." The truth is that he was given a dependency discharge around September 1, 1959, so that he could take care of his injured mother. At that time he was also transferred from active duty to the reserves. This dependency discharge was changed to an undesirable discharge (less serious than a "dishonorable discharge") on September 13, 1960, almost one full year after Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union... So I suppose the question is whether or not Oswald would have protested at all against the less-serious undesirable discharge which he was, in fact, given. Perhaps not. I mean, what could he have (plausibly) expected, anyway, given his trying to defect (or "defect") to the Soviet Union and everything. If Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. And if that is the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead. Ironically, Oswald could have just been trying to "upgrade" his misperceived "dishonorable" discharge status to the "undesirable" one that he'd originally been promised! I think it's logical to assume that Oswald's actually getting an (unbeknowst-to-him) "undesirable discharge" after defecting actually argues for his being a US spy. I mean, if he'd been a true defector and traitor, wouldn't he really have gotten a dishonorable discharge? And we gotta ask ourselves this question: what would the Ruskies have thought if Oswald had retained his (honorable) dependency discharge (or something equally honorable) after defecting to the Soviet Union and offering to give up some juicy Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" secrets, especially knowing that Oswald had informed the U.S. Embassy of his intention to do so? Anyway, the following is from the Warren Commission Report, Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald: " [...] Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). (451) On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. (452) [...] on August 28, the [Marine Corps] Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; (455) approval followed shortly. (456) On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, (457) and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. (458) He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview, Ill. (459) Almost exactly 1 year later, on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, (460)... [...] http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.htm Sincerely, --Tommy Edited and bumped.

Paul, Are you suggesting that just anyone was selected for the 'false defector program', or are you saying that LHO traveled to Russia, by way of Finland, completely on his own initiative? Michael, I find it complicated that: (1) Oswald was dishonorably discharged from the Marines; and (2) Oswald struggled for a long time to upgrade that status. This suggests a scenario with two options. If Oswald entered a "false defector program" as a low-level spy-training mission, which was also a probationary period, then his performance in this mission would determine its outcome. So, it is plausible that:(I) Oswald failed to perform as well as hoped -- perhaps because of taking a Russian wife or another unexpected behavior; or (ii) Oswald successfully completed his training mission, and was invited to continue another mission even deeper under-cover, which would entail a dishonorable discharge from the Marines, and a fake struggle to upgrade that status. I find that option (ii) lacks the ring of realism. If Oswald passed the training mission, and was invited to continue another mission, it is more likely that he would have been hired as a full-time CIA (or FBI or ONI) employee. Evidently he was not hired full-time. So, the better likelihood is that Oswald failed to complete his "Russian defector" mission satisfactorily, and he broke his probationary period. He was not hired as a full-time Intelligence agent, and he was invited to try again some other time -- when he got his act together. But struggle as he might, Lee Harvey Oswald never got his act together. That's how it appears to me, Michael. Furthermore, as I've noted in the past, the fact that Oswald preferred double-agent scenarios made him more vulnerable, rather than more valuable, for Intelligence operations. Hemming, Nagell and Dean all had pasts on both sides of the Cold War (quasi-double-agents) and all three of them feared that they were subject to scape-goating by one agency or another. It seems that double-agents were doubly at risk to become patsies in Intelligence skullduggery. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, I'm afraid you're mistaken about the "dishonorable discharge" bit. Oswald may have mistakenly assumed that he was appealing a serious "dishonorable discharge." Why? Well, because about a year after he had (allegedly) defected to the Soviet Union, his mother relayed to him the incorrect information that that was what he had recently been given! But Oswald never was given a "dishonorable discharge." The truth is that he was given a worthy-of-being-honorable dependency discharge around September 1, 1959, so that he could take care of his injured mother. At that time he was also transferred from active duty to the reserves. This dependency discharge was changed to an undesirable discharge (less serious than a "dishonorable discharge") on September 13, 1960, almost one full year after Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union... So I suppose the question is whether or not Oswald would have protested at all against the less-serious undesirable discharge which he was, in fact, given. Perhaps not. I mean, what could he have (plausibly) expected, anyway, given his trying to defect (or "defect") to the Soviet Union and everything. And maybe, if Oswald was a US spy, maybe just maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. (And if this is the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead.) I mean, after all, what would the Ruskies have thought if Oswald had retained his (honorable) dependency discharge (or something equally honorable) after defecting to the Soviet Union and offering to give up some juicy Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" secrets, especially knowing that Oswald had informed the U.S. Embassy of his intention to do so? Anyway, the following is from the Warren Commission Report, Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald: " [...] Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). (451) On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. (452) [...] on August 28, the [Marine Corps] Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; (455) approval followed shortly. (456) On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, (457) and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. (458) He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview, Ill. (459) Almost exactly 1 year later, on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, (460)... [...] http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.htm Sincerely, --Tommy

Dear Jimbo, Allow me to translate it for you in a way that you can understand. Paul claims that 1) there was no assassination plot in Miami, and 2) that Hoover wanted Interpen to think that they were going to be used as backup protection for JFK in Miami. Why? Because Hoover wanted Hemming and his buddies to be armed and in close proximity to JFK in Miami so they could be arrested for appearing to be intending to hit him! According to Paul, Hemming figured out Hoover's ruse in advance and told his men to show up unarmed. Sincerely, --Tommy

Good point, Ron. In this scenario, If Oswald had realized he'd intentionally been given bad phone numbers for the John Hurt he was trying to reach, he would have "spilled the beans" on the bad guys, whose conspiracy he had penetrated and with whom he was circumstantially implicated. By the same token, Oswald evidently thought that John Hurt was a "good guy," someone he could trust... Sincerely, --Tommy

My desire is to present what information I have discovered regarding O.N.I. and other topics at the heart of the JFK Assassination, here on the forum. While I think the conferences are a great medium for those who can travel there, I want everything to be here on the Forum in glorious black and white......The only problem I have is that a large majority of my posts are not responded to...... [not this thread, at least] Lack of interest? Who knows? But I am pushing fifty and I will get over it. I appreciate your kind comments..... Another area of interest with a Navy connection, is the September 1962 visit of Lee and Marina Oswald, George DeMohrenschildt and his wife Jeanne, visiting Mrs. Bruton, wife of Admiral Bruton, [who was away in Europe, on business for Collins Radio]. In John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, Armstrong noted that..... Bruton had been a lawyer in Virginia before becoming a Navy intelligence officer. Bruton's specialty was electronic surveillance and this is what he was bringing to Collins Radio. In April of 1963, the Wall Street Journal announced that Collins would construct a modern radio communications system linking Laos, Thailand, and South Vietnam. On November 1, 1963, the New York Times reported that Fidel Castro had captured a large boat called the Rex which was being leased to Collins Radio at the time. The next day, one of the captured Cuban exiles aboard the Rex confessed that the boat had been used to ferry arms into Cuba and that "the CIA organized all arms shipments" (New York Times 11/3/63)......... Continuing....In the Mary Ferrell database under the short bio of Admiral Bruton we see BRUTON, HENRY CHESTER Sources: WC Vol.9, p. 253; HSCA Vol. II, p. 314; HSCA Vol. XII, pp. 62, 188-194); Legend, Epstein, pp. 175, 177, 183 Mary's Comments: Retired Admiral. When he retired from Navy, he became a Vice President of Collins Radio. Friend of George deMohrenschildt who urged the Brutons to provide a home for Marina Oswald. Bruton's wife, Frances (Frannie), was ex-school teacher and was a talented artist. They had a son whose friend, Philip Weinert, also met the Oswalds. An FBI memorandum dated Sept. 15, 1942 stated that at that time De Mohrenschildt lived at 3022 Benton Street N.W. in Washington D.C. with Quentin Keyes whom the memorandum described as a member of British intelligence, and two American naval officers. The memorandum stated that de Mohrenschildt was very “Pro-Nazi.” In October 1942 the FBI interviewed the man who rented the Benton Street house, Paul Joachim. Joachim told the FBI that he was employed at the time in the Navy building. The other occupants of the house were Lt. Commander Harry Hull of the U.S. Navy and Quinton Quines, who Joachim said worked at the British Embassy. Joachim said de Mohrenschildt lived at the house during the end of May and all of June 1942. He said George DeMohrenschildt never made any statements about feelings toward any country and no statements which were pro-Nazi. ......So, even 20 years before the Kennedy assassination George de Mohrenschildt was associating with naval personnel....... In some ways, the DeMohrenschildt family was almost as enigmatic as the Oswalds...almost (emphasis added by T. Graves) Robert, FWIW, in his book I Am A Patsy!, George DeMohrenschildt says that Admiral Brunton was at home and met Oswald when the DeMorhenschildts took Lee and Marina there to go swimming on "a beautiful spring day" evidently in 1963 (not in September of 1962), shortly before the DeMorhenschildts moved to Haiti. (from chapter 14): "And so we arrived to Bruton's lovely place with a huge swimming pool and Frannie was delighted to see us. When I reminded her that Lee was an ex-marine, she went to get the admiral who was a congenial man and wanted to meet the enlisted men." In the book, DeMorhenschildt describes the conversation that Oswald had that day with Admiral Brunton... http://scribblguy.50megs.com/patsy2.htm Sincerely, --Tommy http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscademo.htm GEORGE DE MOHRENSCHILDT Staff Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations U.S. House of Representatives Ninety-fifth Congress Second Session March 1979 [...] 38. According to State Department documents, George de Morenschildt and his wife were living in Haiti at the time of the assassination.(93) They arrived in the country on June 2, 1963.(94) De Mohrenschildt had earlier been in Haiti in March 1963 and returned to Dallas a week later.(95) He told State Department officials that he left Dallas April 19, 1963, traveled to New York and Philadelphia, and then returned to Dallas for "2 days" to make preparations for the final trip to Haiti.(96) [...] Conflicting evidence as to when Oswald met Admiral Bruton at the Bruton's home: 84. De Mohrenschildt testified further that during the first period of his acquaintance with the Oswalds in the fall of 1962, he and his wife took the Oswalds to a party in Dallas at the time of retired Navy Adm. Chester Bruton.(215) De Mohrenschildt said he and his wife were close to the Brutons.(216) During the party Bruton asked Oswald about his service in the Marine Corps, and according to de Mohrenschildt, received such a negative response from Oswald that the conversation was quickly terminated.(217) [...] PS-- You quote John Armstrong: "In John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, Armstrong noted that..... [Admiral] Bruton had been a lawyer in Virginia before becoming a Navy intelligence officer. Bruton's specialty was electronic surveillance and this is what he was bringing to Collins Radio." I think Armstrong over-dramatizes or even makes up Bruton's "intelligence officer" role here. Bruton graduated from the Naval Academy in 1926 and commanded a submarine during W.W. II. Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt that Navy "intelligence officers" command submarines.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_C._Bruton

bump; very interesting thread --Tommy

Dear Paul, Please comment on my comments, below. "... Nagell would have noticed Kostikov there in Mexico City, if he was there, IMHO." I don't mean to sound overly obtuse, Paul, but your ambiguous use of the pronoun "he" in the above sentence makes me a bit unsure whether you mean "If Kostikov was in Mexico City" or "If Nagell was in Mexico City." Since the sentence can be read either way, do please clarify. "Oswald had lots of business in Mexico. He had to: (1) fail miserably to obtain passage to Cuba; and (2) meet with Guy "Gabby" Gabaldon who was posing as a fake CIA officer, in order to make arrangements to position Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas -- living alone in a room, and working at the Texas School Book Depository." In your mind, on whose directions/orders was Oswald performing the first task ("to fail miserably to obtain passage to Cuba")? Thanks, --Tommy PS-- Regarding Kostikov, I just found an old but interesting post by Robert Howard in a thread called "Serendipity" on the "JFK Online Seminars" part of The Educational Forum (post #48). I hope Robert doesn't mind my copying and pasting the part pertaining to Kostikov here (and editing it just a teensy-weensie bit): " ... [T]his post concerns something that has not been covered on this thread and that is in relation to the CIA people responsible for Western Hemisphere Station Operations out of Mexico City....... At what could be considered the nexus of the KGB/CIA interactions prior to the assassination, you will find the acronyms TUMBLEWEED, which was a FBI acronym, if I am not mistaken, and AEBURBLE. John Newman [Oswald and the CIA] certainly is an authority on this area, and in one of his presentations on the OSWALD/CIA book [...] mentioned AE/DURBILL as a new acronym. Someone at maryferrell.org posted on the comments section a correction of sorts stating, in effect, that it was really AE/BURBLE and according to more than one document, AEBURBLE was someone named Guenther Schulz, although personally I believe it will be proven that the name is actually Guenther Schultz. Guenther Schulz is a name that everyone interested in nailing down the rest of the story of 1963, should, at a minimum be aware of, if not trying to ascertain what his job description was, as well as what his title was . I would suggest possibilities as to variants of his name, and the use of a ü instead of the generic u. See: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?startIndex=60 [Note: I don't understand why Robert put this particular link here. Can anyone point me in the right direction on this?--TG] [...] The day after the assassination of President Kennedy, document 104-10419-10021 noted the following information: ' Bagley stated that he wished to point out that Kostikov, known KGB agent, is the same person who has been in touch with the bureau double-agent Guenther Schulz in the case referred to as TUMBLEWEED." " (This case relates to a double agent, Guenter Schulz, who is being operated by us against the Soviets. [...] )" http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=235964 ( emphasis added by T. Graves )

Ian, Points well taken. It's pretty amazing, isn't it, that the CIA was unable to photograph Oswald at either the Cuban Consulate or the Russian Embassy? Absolutely amazing! Just bad luck, I guess. LOL --Tommy

OK, Tommy, I suppose we agree on the basic issue, then. Despite nuances, Oswald was ultimately a rightist pretending to be a leftist. I suppose that I should ask your opinion about the next level of my scenario, then. Does it not follow, based on the material evidence, that Lee Oswald was attempting to obtain easy passage into Cuba from Mexico, using his fake FPCC credentials? Best regards, --Paul Trejo P.S. As for Newman's book and Russell's book, I've read them both, and I find nothing in them that contradicts my own theory. Both those authors are willing to admit when they are merely speculating -- so I don't take every word they say as Gospel. Dear Paul, Yes, Paul, if Oswald truly was in Mexico City, then I think he was there to try to get into Cuba. He may have been told by his controller(s) that he was being sent to Cuba to hit Castro, but IMHO he was really just being set up, by someone in the CIA, to look even more like a Commie and to meet unwittingly with the CIA-monitored KGB head of assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, Valery Kostikov, at the Soviet Embassy, thereby setting in place the ultimate post-assassination cover up mechanism -- the threat of a retaliatory nuclear war with the USSR, all of which made Oswald the perfect patsy in the perfect scenario... Warmest regards, --Tommy