Thomas Graves

Hello Sean It gets worse. I went to the site you gave me to read Jarman's HSCA interview. When I finished, I also read Harold Norman's HSCA interview. According to Norman, him, Jarman and Williams had time to sit and ponder on the 5th floor following the last shot, run down to the west end of the building and study the scene at the railroad yard for a bit (we passed there for a couple of minutes or so), go downstairs to the 4th floor and look out the windows and chit chat there (for a bit more than a couple of minutes, by his account), and finally take the back stairs down to the 1st floor and the main entrance, where they saw the police coming into the building. Here is the good part. He was then asked if he had seen Superintendent Truly on the 1st floor when they arrived and he replied, Yes, he did recall seeing him there. In other words, if Oswald left the building at 12:33, it seems Truly (and presumably Baker) are still on the 1st floor AFTER Oswald left the building. It is looking worse for the 2nd floor Oswald/Baker encounter by the day. Robert, Not trying to get you all riled up or nothin', but isn't it possible that Superintendent Truly returned to the first floor several minutes after the assassination, and that's when Norman, Jarman, and Williams saw him there? Also, you say that N, J, and W saw the police come into the building. I think we know that Officer Baker entered the building somewhere around 40 seconds after the last shot. Do we know when other policemen started coming in? Isn't it reasonable to assume that other policemen continued trickling in after after Baker and the initial "wave?" For timing purposes, it would be nice if we knew which policemen N, J, and W saw come into the building. --Tommy These are good questions. The best response I can think of is that Truly and Baker would have had to conduct a whirlwind search of all of the floors. Norman and his friends took their time coming down (and it is quite surprising they never met Truly and Baker either coming up or going down) but they were not THAT long in coming down. Do you think Officer Baker would have rushed to the top of the TSBD only to spend a couple of minutes up there? Robert, Yes, I do, because I can imagine that after a cursory search of the top floors, Baker probably wanted to get back down to the first floor to communicate with the other policemen coming in and to help seal off the building. --Tommy

Hello Sean It gets worse. I went to the site you gave me to read Jarman's HSCA interview. When I finished, I also read Harold Norman's HSCA interview. According to Norman, him, Jarman and Williams had time to sit and ponder on the 5th floor following the last shot, run down to the west end of the building and study the scene at the railroad yard for a bit (we passed there for a couple of minutes or so), go downstairs to the 4th floor and look out the windows and chit chat there (for a bit more than a couple of minutes, by his account), and finally take the back stairs down to the 1st floor and the main entrance, where they saw the police coming into the building. Here is the good part. He was then asked if he had seen Superintendent Truly on the 1st floor when they arrived and he replied, Yes, he did recall seeing him there. In other words, if Oswald left the building at 12:33, it seems Truly (and presumably Baker) are still on the 1st floor AFTER Oswald left the building. It is looking worse for the 2nd floor Oswald/Baker encounter by the day. Robert, Not trying to get you all riled up or nothin', but isn't it possible that Superintendent Truly returned to the first floor several minutes after the assassination, and that's when Norman, Jarman, and Williams saw him there? Also, you say that N, J, and W saw the police come into the building. I think we know that Officer Baker entered the building about 40 seconds after the last shot. Do we know when other policemen started coming in? Isn't it reasonable to assume that policemen continued trickling in after Baker and after the initial "wave?" For timing purposes, it would be nice if we knew which policemen N, J, and W saw come into the building. --Tommy

Bill, Clarification time. When I said "College Boy," I was talking about the young man standing just to the left of the mailbox at 04:38 of this film. I wasn't talking about anyone up on the steps. Please point out your "College Boy," who, you say, was "standing on the top step" and then "stays on the top stairs where "Prayer Man" stood earlier." I have no idea who you are talking about. The only person I see up there in this film is a man wearing a suit and a tie. Thank you, --Tommy

I tentatively submit that the confusion here is simply over names. I seem to recall that previous researchers, it may have been Anthony Summers, found out that in Dallas it was common to refer to the second floor as the first floor, and to refer to the ground floor as the ground floor. I am sure Gary Mack could set us straight on this. Another reason I don't trust Holmes is he claims to have been watching the assassination through binoculars from a rooftop, giving him a bird's eye view, and he claims he saw no one where Lee Bowers swore he saw two people. Did he not show great foresight in arranging for a ringside seat at a historic murder? William Kelly wrote: [...] there was a witness on the roof [of the Terminal Annex Building] who did do a video interview that is on Youtube somewhere. [...] Bill, Are you referring to J. C. Price, the building engineer for the Terrminal Annex Building who said he was on the roof of that building during the assassination? I have two minor problems with J. C. Price's statement to the Sheriff's Department. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0255b.htm 1) He said that although he saw Connally "slump over," he couldn't see the President because [paraphrasing here] the limo had gone out of his view under the Triple Underpass. 2) According to him, the final shot was up to five minutes after the first ones. We've heard that Sheriff Decker was corrupt, so maybe he had Price's testimony altered to make him look like a nut case? Sincerely, --Tommy BTW, do you really think the guy whom I call "College Boy" in the Couch/Darnell film (starting around 04:20) was Lee Harvey Oswald? PS Mark Lane makes a boo-boo in the youtube video when he says that the Terminal Annex building is at the "north east corner" of Dealey Plaza. Actually, it's at the south east corner.

Dear Mr. Kelly, I wouldn't say that the guy walking down the steps in that film is a "man," but a high school or college-aged "boy." --Tommy Mr. Tommy, but is it the same guy in the other film frames - the "Prayer Man"? And is it Oswald? They are the questions, BK Dear Mr. Kelly, In my opinion, the boy walking down the steps is not Oswald and is not "Prayer Man." Why do you think it is? Sincerely, --Tommy My question is the guy walking down the steps in the second film the same guy we are talking about - aka "Prayer Man," and if not why not? You say its not, and I say okay, why not? They have the same features, right? Dear Mr. Kelly, I've understood your question all along. Earlier you asked if the guy walking down the steps was Oswald and if he was also "Prayer Man." This is what you wrote: Mr. Tommy, but is it [the boy who may or may not be walking down the steps at 04:20] the same guy in the other film frames - the "Prayer Man"? And is it Oswald? They are the questions, BK No, I don't think the guy walking down the steps at 04:25 is Oswald. Oswald had a different hairstyle. Also, "College Boy" (the guy walking down the steps, Bill) seems to be wearing a casual jacket or a sweater and a white shirt with a collar, not a v-neck T-shirt like Oswald was wearing You claim that "Prayer Man" and "College Boy" have the same "features." Sure, PM and CB both seem to have the same basic body type, but neither Duncan's enhancement not the film is not sharp enough to distinguish facial features, IMHO. That glowing head back in the shadows on the left at :04:42 looks more like Oswald than "College Boy" does. Say, could "Glowing Head Man" be "Prayer Man" or Oswald? And what about the white flash behind the glowing head at 04:23? Could that be somebody drinking from a shiny bottle of Dr. Pepper? Sincerely, --Tommy

Dear Mr. Kelly, I wouldn't say that the guy walking down the steps in that film is a "man," but a high school or college-aged "boy." --Tommy Mr. Tommy, but is it the same guy in the other film frames - the "Prayer Man"? And is it Oswald? They are the questions, BK Dear Mr. Kelly, In my opinion, the boy who may or may not be walking down the steps is not Oswald and is not "Prayer Man." Why do you think it is? Sincerely, --Tommy

Dear Mr. Kelly, I wouldn't say that the guy walking down the steps in that film is a "man," but a high school or college-aged "boy." --Tommy

Good observation. One wonders how many other instances there were of Truly "not-seeing someone", but failed to include in his report. The truth is, We know from the photo and film evidence that Truly and Baker would have passed right by Prayer Man (and numerous other people) as they entered the building. Saying "I saw no one there" is completely different from "I didn't see someone there." Jeez. --Tommy

The first floor (or is it the second floor LOL) "lobby" (or "vestibule" ?) area: https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=15 --Tommy

Sean, I was asking Mr. Kelly how he knows that the person we're calling "Prayer Man" is wearing a brown shirt (or a reddish one for that matter) in Duncan's big, brownish enhancement. The point I was trying to make is that it's impossible to tell what color shirt PM is wearing in that image. --Tommy

[...] [...] Bill Kelley wrote: [...] ... the man in the brown shirt in the TSBD doorway ... aka "Prayer Man." [..] Dear Mr. Kelly, "Brown shirt"? How can you tell that Prayer Man is wearing a brown shirt? It seems to me that everything in Duncan's enhancment is brown. Sincerely, --Tommy

This is the best I can do, the quality of the images are so bad, it's impossible to do a decent enhancement. I do believe he may be holding something, although what it is can only be speculative at this point in time. "This just proves that you're a CIA disinfo agent, Duncan. It's obvious that you "photo shopped" it so that that guy doesn't look a bit like Lee Harvey Oswald!" --or-- "Dang! It's the Mexico City Mystery Man!" --Tommy PS Nice work, Duncan.

Ray, In Google Images, I googled "john thomas masen" in quotation marks. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2825&page=3 (scroll down to the bottom of the page) --Tommy

Bill, Fascinating post! Thanks, --Tommy A clarification: LHO went through boot camp at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, San Diego. MCRD is very close to downtown San Diego. (see map) https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.741944,-117.197222&q=loc:32.741944,-117.197222&hl=en&t=m&z=15 San Diego Naval Hospital (where I assume the above-mentioned Neuropsychiatric Laborotory was situated) is also very near downtown San Diego. (see map and Wikipedia article) http://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Naval_Medical_Center_San_Diego&params=32_43_30_N_117_08_45_W_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Medical_Center_San_Diego After boot camp, LHO also received training or was stationed at Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton, which is not near downtown San Diego but is about 50 miles north of it. (see map) https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.333333,-117.416667&q=loc:33.333333,-117.416667&hl=en&t=m&z=11 --Tommy

David, I think it's the same guy. Seems to have light colored pants in both images. --Tommy BTW, could that guy in the clip who is getting up from a sitting or crouching position on the far left side of the steps be Billy Lovelady? If so, he moved around quite a bit after the shots were fired. bump

David, I think it's the same guy. Seems to have light colored pants in both images. --Tommy BTW, could that guy in the clip who is getting up from a sitting or crouching position on the far left side of the steps be Billy Lovelady? If so, he moved around quite a bit after the shots ere fired.

David, I don't agree with you on many things regarding the assassination, but I do agree with you that "Stetson Man" in the foreground does appear to tilt his head back and look up. Good observation. I hadn't noticed that. --Tommy

Which "camera car" can be partially seen (in the left foreground) at the very beginning of this clip (and at :06, still in the foreground)? If we can identify it, we can use it and and motorcycle cop who turns the corner at :06 and :07 to establish more precisely when Officer Baker entered the TSBD... --Tommy edited and bumped

Yes, and I can see his crooked front tooth. LOL --Tommy

Larry, Thanks for clarifying that. Regarding Orcarberrio, this is the only photo of him that I know of: https://www.google.com/search?q=orcarberrio&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.50768961,d.aWc,pv.xjs.s.en_US.E_1kRF_UP4s.O&biw=1016&bih=614&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=Z7UPUsyVC4G4yQGl6oEw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=XUtKJ0--2s2DHM%3A%3B5QL9hG-ilG3iSM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk%252F1AAOrcarberrio1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk%252F1AAcubans_9.htm%3B345%3B446 --Tommy

Larry, Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding part of your post because it looks like part of a sentence was left out, or did you just misspell the word "actual" as "actually?" The sentence starts, "He might well have known it because..." I agree that 3126 Harlandale Avenue was not a "safe house" in the traditional meaning of the word. Also, it's interesting that Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberrio looked so much like Oswald. Even more interesting is the fact that someone (forget who now) said they once saw Orcarberrio and Oswald together. Thanks again, --Tommy

Another one of those anecdotal accounts: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol19_0276b.htm [...] In his excellent book Someone Would Have Talked, Larry Hancock writes: Author Eric Tagg reports in Brush with Destiny, an excellent manuscript on the life of Buddy Walthers, Dallas County Deputy Sheriff, that Walthers was contacted on the evening of November 22 by his mother-in-law. She lived next door to the house on Harlandale that had started to receive a lot of mysterious late night visitors in October and November. She had become suspicious of her new neighbors who had moved in only 2-3 months before, and who held frequent meetings lasting long into the nights. Apparently, she felt that these Cubans might somehow be connected to Lee Oswald; in fact she told Walthers that she had seen someone looking very much like Oswald going into the house. Walthers continued his own investigation of the house and its occupants. He found that one occupant was Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberrio, and that Frank Ellsworth of the ATF was indeed monitoring Orcarberrio's armaments buying efforts at the time of the assassination. Walthers concluded his investigation and on November 26, he submitted a follow-up report. There are no records indicating the Secret Service ever pursued Walther's report. The CIA did, but was confused (it would seem) by a misspelling of Harlandale in Walther's original report and dropped the inquiry on the grounds that no such address existed. The FBI managed to locate the address but did no more than simply confirm that the Cubans and Orcarberrio had been there and departed. An examination of an FBI follow-up on Walther's report is even more revealing. It seems that the FBI had a source within Alpha 66 in Dallas who reported to it that Oswald was not associated with Alpha 66 in any way and had never been to the house on Harlandale. The same report notes that the source later moved to Puerto Rico after the assassination. Since we know the Rodriguez Orcarberrio made such a move, it is possible that the FBI's source clearing the house on Harlandale may have been one of the persons reported as being in contact with Oswald. The FBI report made no mention of the fact that in 1964 the Secret Service listed Orcarberrio as a potential Presidential threat, nor does it mention yet another, separate FBI report in which a witness reported Orcarberrio in the company of a man closely resembling Lee Oswald. Michael and Larry, I have determined that the confidential informant for Deputy Sheriff "Buddy" Walthers on the pre-assassination goings-on at the 3126 Harlandale "safe house," including the assertion that Oswald had been at that house, was Buddy's mother-in-law, Lillie Robertson. http://www.history-m...Vol19_0276b.htm Buddy mistakenly called it "3128 Harlendale." There is no 3128 Harlandale, and there is no street in Dallas called Harlendale. The correct address for the house he was talking about is 3126 Harlandale. On May 25, 1964, Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberrio told the FBI that the Dallas (Alpha-66) meetings took place at 3126 Hollandale [sic], which Orcaberrio said was the residence of one Jorge Salazar. http://www.maryferre...p;relPageId=222 FWIW, there is a Hollandale Lane in a northern suburb of Dallas, but its numbers end in the 3000 block. In other words, there is no "3126 Hollandale," but there is a 3126 Harlandale... 3126 Harlandale Avenue, Photo and Map: https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&layer=c&z=17&iwloc=A&sll=32.708524,-96.807458&cbp=13,63.5,0,0,0&cbll=32.708465,-96.807597&q=%223126+harlandale%22+dallas&ei=ubEOUp2zE8TAyAGx_YBQ&ved=0CC4QxB0wAA The house Buddy's mother-in-law lived in is at 3130 Harlandale Avenue, immediately adjacent to the "safe house." Knowing that "Dorothy" was the first name of Buddy's wife, and that she remarried and became "Dorothy Mangham" after he was murdered in 1969, I tried to find a wedding announcement so I could determine what Buddy's mother-in-law's name was. I had no luck using Buddy's name "Eddy Raymond Walthers," but hit pay dirt when I googled "E. R. Walthers" and 'Dorothy," together. http://www.genealogybank.com/gbnk/newspapers/?lname=walthers&type=marriage_engagement Then I went to the 1940 Census and saw that Dorothy Robertson was 15 years old and living with her parents, Vester (or "Victor") and Lillie Robinson, and Dorothy's two brothers at 3130 Harlandale in 1940. Dorothy's mother, Lillie Robinson, was 39 years old in 1940. They had been living in the same house in 1935, and it's logical to assume that Lillie Robinson, Buddy's mother-in-law, was still living there in 1963. Perhaps someone can check a 1962 or 1963 Dallas phone book for Robinson on Harlandale? http://interactive.ancestry.com/2442/m-t0627-04180-00761/158942981?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord For me, the fact that Buddy's Walthers' mother-in-law was living right next to the Harlandale safe house lends credence to Buddy's statements regarding what was going on there before (and perhaps even one day after) the assassination. It appears that deputy sheriff Eddy Raymond "Buddy" Walthers had a good informant living right next to the safe house on Harlandale. His mother-in-law! --Tommy By the way, it looks like Buddy's widow, Dorothy Mangham, is still living in Dallas and is now 88 years old.

I agree with Duncan IN PRINCIPLE, and I for one have always valued Duncan's input, especially on matters photographic, but in fairness to Mr. Prudhomme he was just reporting something that happened on another forum. He does not abuse people the way Jim Di Eugenio used to do. Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum. If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented. If this is Oswald, and Baker has yet to enter the TSBD, then Oswald must have gone up the front stairs or taken the front elevator to the second floor in order to greet Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom before he purchased the coke. And if Duncan and those on his forum are familiar with the photo evidence, perhaps they can tell us about the other photos and films that precede and follow this one or if there are any other photos or films that include this person. And as for Mr. Hocking's quote of Williams' actions, Williams couldn't have taken the warehouse elevator to the fourth floor immediately after the third shot because it was on the fifth floor. He must have taken the front elevator, that didn't go to the sixth floor but only went to the fourth floor, which is where he said he went. BK Bill, Otis Williams claimed he climbed the stairs that were next to the warehouse elevator(s). I agree with you that he could not have taken either elevator since they were both stuck on the 5th floor at that time. The important part of his quote for the current topic is that he went inside immediately after hearing the 3rd shot. If true, that means he could not have been the figure on the front steps. From the testimony of the group on the stairs and the photographic and film evidence, I am of the opinion that "prayer man" is not any of the 14 individuals that testified they were on the steps at that time. All of the employees also testified that there were no strangers in the TSBD that day. This leads me to believe "prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD who is not included in anyone of the 14 individuals testimony. A mystery that merits further attention. And another good topic as the 50th approaches. How do we know that "Prayer Man" is not Billy Lovelady? Can Lovelady be seen somewhere else in that photo/film? --Tommy

Rex. Not sure if this helps, but there are seven pages withheld in an FBI report dated approx August of 1976 (reference (62-2116 for correct dates) found within the PHX-72 OO (Office of Origin) field report) referenced as a FBI 62-2116- (???pgs) file. These pages were sanitized in full in 1993, but made reference to the death of John Roselli and his previous associates. (referenced Phoenix Organized Crime, Sgt Ed Salem and Sgt Harry Hawkins, as well as the Tri-State Drug Task Force, chaired then by Arizona Governor, Bruce Babbit. Also Senator Berry Goldwater's name was also found within these pages, but not sure in what context) Also this report was part of information obtained from "Dade County Homicide, Miami Florida" in 1978 (I think). Those none sanitized pages made reference to Trafficante, John Farrentello, John Martino, Tony Varona, John Mc Cord, and Charles Nicolette, ? Mc Willie? I think but not sure. There were also references to the 'Grace Ranch' of Tucson Arizona and the 'Mc Cord Ranch of New Mexico'. The FBI file was sanitized, however the Dade County information was not and that information was not included within the FBI data banks of 1993. This subject came up during the hearings of Senator John Kerry's investigations into Iran/Contra and Narco.., which was Classified Top Secret Committee Sensitive, and remains classified as of this date. This information also "Fell through the cracks" so to speak Tosh Plumlee wrote: I have just been informed that more classified pages on Roselli are to be released in the next 30 days (Thirty days from Feb15, 2008.) I believe that the seven pages are in these releases. [spelling corrected and emphasis added by T. Graves] Bump

Link Why use the plural word at a time when it was already assumed in the US that one man was the killer? Am I reading too much into one letter "s"? Andric, Well, according to Dick Russell in TMWKTM, Richard Case Nagell claimed that the Soviets were aware of the conspiracy before the assassination. According to Nagell, the Soviets wanted him to kill Oswald if Oswald couldn't be convinced that he was being manipulated by some anti-Castro Cubans pretending to be pro-Castro. --Tommy