15 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Back to business:  Johnny Cairns cited the Actual Physical Evidence in the JFKA twice in “60 Reasons.”

Did he cite the bullet holes in the clothes in his Lancer presentation?

Or did Paul Bleau?

I take it the answer is No.

The last time the Actual Genuine Physical Evidence in the JFKA was cited at a November Conference was 1998, when E.  Martin Schotz told COPA he found the bullet defects in the clothes comparable in evidentiary value to the entire 26 WC volumes.

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/FalseMystery/COPA1998EMS.html

 Also, he tore ‘em a new one.

https://ratical.org/ratville/////JFK/FalseMystery/COPA1998EMSapp.html

How COPA’s Cooperation With The Government Facilitates The Cover-Up with a Case Example

Back to business:  Johnny Cairns cited the Actual Physical Evidence in the JFKA twice in “60 Reasons.”

Did he cite the bullet holes in the clothes in his Lancer presentation?

Or did Paul Bleau?

My maternal grandfather was a Glasgow-born McPherson.  I spent a week in ‘94 chauffeuring my Mom and my Sister around the The Old Country.  I found the Scottish people so relentlessly polite I needed a tube clerk in London to treat me like an idiot so I could feel back on terra firma.

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

True.  When my wife and I toured Scotland about 30 years ago, we were able to understand most of the Scots, except for the people in Glasgow.

 

I went to see the Irish play “Playboy of the Western World” in Glasgow — Glaswegian actors with Irish accents.  I detected some English in there, not a lot.

On 12/6/2023 at 10:19 AM, Pete Mellor said:

Johnny is from Edinburgh, hope you understood the accent.  

They speak English in Edinburgh.

Glasgow?  Not so much...

3 hours ago, Andrew Iler said:

I attended a large public presentation by Paul Bleau in Quebec City on October 24th wherein he discussed the discrepancies in bullet hole locations in the President’s clothing and on the President’s back. As part of the presentation, Paul had a PowerPoint going that displayed photos of the shirt, the autopsy photo and the autopsy report. 

 

Can we change the title of the thread to…. “Cliff loses his lunch”?

Rock’n good news!  I may have to treat Cory at two Vegas A’s games.

Paul Bleau is Canadian, Johnny Cairns is Scottish.  Are there any American researchers with the savvy to grasp the significance of physical evidence in a cold case murder investigation?

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

From patspeer.com, Chapter 9:

Silent, But Deadly

While trying to figure out if the bullet fired in F-114 had indeed been subsonic, however, I discovered that there was an historical basis for my suspicion that a small caliber weapon firing subsonic ammunition had been used in the assassination. While reading about the CIA’s overthrow of the Guatemalan Government in 1954, I discovered that, among the supply lists, lists of communists to be killed after the take-over, and other documents released in 1997, there was a CIA Manual on Assassination. In this manual there were several relevant passages. At one point, when discussing the advantages and disadvantages of assassinating people with firearms, the manual relates "Public figures or guarded officials may be killed with great reliability and some safety if a firing point can be established prior to an official occasion. The propaganda value of this system may be high.” (Note that the propaganda chief for this operation was future Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt, who, shortly before his death, admitted an involvement in the Kennedy assassination to his son, and claimed David Morales, one of the CIA's para-military trainers for the Guatemalan Operation, and presumably one of those handing out the CIA' Manual on Assassination, was also involved.) Elsewhere, the manual deals specifically with the issue of subsonic charges, noting “pistols, submachine guns and any sort of improvised carbine or rifle which will take a low velocity cartridge can be silenced,” and then cautioning “Because permissible velocity is low, effective precision range is held to about 100 yards with rifle or carbine type weapons.”

Further confirmation came from studying the supply lists prepared for the Guatemalan op. On one such list there is the surprising item ".22 cal. rifles w/silencers." As larger caliber rifles were available, this gives a clear indication that .22 caliber rifles with silencers were a preferred assassination weapon, and that the 100 yard limit mentioned in the assassination manual was true for these weapons. While I've taken a lot of guff from shooters about this, as they all seem convinced that a sniper rifle firing a small subsonic bullet would be nearly worthless at the distances of Dealey Plaza, I suspect their concern is overstated. Geoffrey Boothroyd, the English Firearms expert who advised James Bond creator Ian Fleming on the weapons described in his books, once famously wrote Fleming: "Silencers. These I do not like. The only excuse for using one is a .22 rifle using low-velocity ammunition, i.e., below the speed of sound." Former sniper Craig Roberts, in his book Kill Zone, moreover, wrote of his suspicion that a "CIA-issued .22 caliber Model 74 Winchester silenced sniper rifle" was fired at Kennedy, wounding him in the throat. Subsequent investigation on my part revealed that, yes indeed, the Winchester 74 sniper rifle pre-dated the assassination and is a semi-automatic weapon, meaning it could be fired quite rapidly, causing separate hits on Kennedy and Connally, and creating the illusion they were hit by the same bullet. I found a photo of such a rifle, furthermore, in the 1991 book OSS Special Weapons and Equipment by H. Keith Melton, an expert on the CIA and its predecessor, the OSS. This is reproduced below:

Note that the range is 100 yards, the same as that of the assassination weapons described in the CIA Manual on assassination.

Elsewhere on the page, the advantages of such a rifle are further detailed.

"A Weapon that eliminates muzzle flash and muzzle noise offers several advantages to special forces personnel.

(1) The source of the fire is masked.

(2) The location of the weapon is difficult for the enemy to pinpoint.

(3) The enemy can not identify the numbers or type(s) of weapons firing, or their range.

(4) The weapon has less recoil and is more accurate to fire.

(5) The enemy is harassed and confused.

(6) The sniper has a psychological advantage over the enemy."

In 2007, at a swap meet, I came across an old book entitled Everyday Ballistics that gave me more reason to believe such a weapon was used on 11-22-63. This book had been the property of the U.S. Navy. In the chapter on bullet drop, it reports that a fully charged .22 long rifle bullet--the type of bullet used in the Winchester 74 rifle--would only drop a foot or so over a distance of 270 feet, the approximate distance from the roof of the Dal-Tex Building to Kennedy at frame 224 of the Zapruder film.

And that was the most it would drop. I later realized that bullet drop, as everything is relative. If a gun firing such a bullet is sighted in at 100 yards, well, that means the bullet will start out below the point of aim, then rise above it, and then drop down to hit the target at 100 yards.

But what if the rifle was sighted in at 50 yards, and the bullet wasn't fired until Kennedy was 90 yards away? How far would it drop over that extra 40 yards?

Well, a chart found on gunsmoke.com provides us the answer. The chart tracking the bullet trajectory for a subsonic .22 long rifle round fired from a rifle sighted-in at 50 yards supports that such a bullet would drop down but 5 inches below the line of sight at 90 yards.

This chart also supports Everyday Ballistics' assertion that a subsonic bullet fired at 1000 fps would suffer less wind deflection than assumed. It reflects that a 15 mph crosswind would deflect such a bullet but 2.12 inches at 90 yards. Hmmm... From this it seems clear that a well-practiced shooter firing a silenced Winchester 74 or M-16 from the Dal-Tex Building could easily have hit Kennedy, or Connally, or both.

In sum, then, my study of the evidence suggests the use of such a weapon can not be ruled out. Upon further reading about the M-16, moreover, I realized that it fired three-round bursts in its semi-automatic setting. Since the wounds to Kennedy and Connally circa frame 224 were quite possibly caused by but two bullets, I now suspect the second rifle used in the assassination was a semi-automatic weapon quite similar to the one shown above.

And this weapon left a shallow wound in soft tissue?

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

TK--

You are making reasonable statements regarding the JFKA. 

A subsonic round fired ~600-700 fps would likely penetrate a couple inches or maybe less. 

And traveled thru 90 yards of swirling wind with little drop in elevation?

”No way.”

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

If a shooter was aiming at the head at that range, and due to an undercharged round, the result was an impact a little lower, would not the difference be minimal as far as penetration? In other words, if there was an undercharged round, that caused a slight drop in elevation, would it point to that round being undercharged by only a very small degree, but not enough to make a drastic difference to penetration?

I haven’t seen anything to indicate this was possible.

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

I don't know. I've never hunted with a 30.06, that's why I'm asking.

I'm wondering if an undercharged round could have entered the back.

SSA Glen Bennett described the back shot occurring right before the head shot(s).  So an undercharged round had to travel 90 yards thru swirling wind losing little elevation.  I’ve yet to see any proof that was possible.

4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

According to the autopsy face sheet, the President's back wound measured 7x4 mm.

As a bullet enters the skin, tissue accelerates radially and is displaced centrifugally. The size of the entry wound is transiently larger than the caliber of the bullet, but typically the defect reversibly contracts to a diameter smaller than the cross-sectional area of the bullet due to the highly elastic properties of skin."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9462949

In other words, the 7mm bullet hole in Kennedy's back was made by a bullet whose diameter was larger than 7mm ( 0.284 inches ). The 6.5mm bullet's diameter is only 0.264 inches., making it doubtful IMO, that the wound was created by 6.5 ammo.

As I've mentioned in my essay on the 7.65 Mauser, one of the two rifles brought into the Texas School Book Depository two days before the motorcade was a Mauser which had been converted to a 30.06. The diameter of 30.06 ammo is .308 inches, larger than 7mm and certainly capable of having made the wound.

Again, this is only my opinion based on the contracting of the skin from the wound's original size in comparison to the diameter of the ammunition.

Could this wound have been made by 30.06 ammunition ?

Do 30.06 rounds leave shallow wounds in soft tissue?

3 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Ok I think the food is clear.  No one focused or mentioned the physical evidence.   I want my food.   

I opened a special savings account.

2 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

The Melvin's didn't play any sludge metal.I kept on waiting to rock out.

Maybe they decided to play all new music on that night?

I seriously couldn't believe it.

Eclectic band.

Cairns:

<quote on>

This exploration does not intend to pinpoint the true perpetrators of President Kennedy's assassination, uncover the exact hideouts of the killers, unmask the orchestrators, or reveal those who facilitated the crime. As the late Mark Lane once succinctly put it, "That really calls for some speculation on my part, I think that area has been pre-empted by the Warren Commission, I prefer to stay in the area of fact." Honouring his words, this work strives not to speculate, but to illuminate the facts.

</q>

Fact:  JFK suffered an entrance wound in soft tissue at T3, no exit.

Fact:  He had an entrance wound in the soft tissue of his throat, no exit.

Fact:  No bullets were found in those wounds.

Fact:  With the body in front of them, the autopsists formed a “general feeling” JFK was hit with a high tech round which dissolved.  They asked the FBI men to investigate.  Special Agent James Sibert called the FBI Lab to inquire.  This was the First Investigation.  It was short lived.  Sibert was informed the single bullet was on the way to DC.  Subject dropped.

Fact:  The CIA employed blood soluble flechettes in the MKNAOMI program at Fort Detrick, Maryland.

Fact:  Civilians employed at Fort Detrick briefed the FBI to look out for such technology in the hands of hostile foreign actors.

This is a hard lead drawing attention to potential perps in the JFKA, entirely based on facts.  The only hard lead in the case.

On 12/3/2023 at 10:32 AM, Roger Odisio said:

It's reason #26 and includes this:  "To summarize, the jacket and shirt of President Kennedy effectively serve as evidence that exonerates Oswald in the case, especially the shirt since these were tailored."

Well, not exactly.  It destroys the WR's story that Oswald, or anybody, was the lone shooter from the 6th floor murdering Kennedy.  It doesn't prove Oswald wasn't one of the shooters from there. I think you have acknowledged that, haven't you, Cliff?

But there is voluminous other evidence to establish that.

Cairns' work is a gold mine.

 

The clothing makes a first appearance in #12: The Testimony Which Negates the Single Bullet Theory.

A better title: The Physical Evidence Which Negates the Single Bullet Theory.

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

It's reason #26 and includes this:  "To summarize, the jacket and shirt of President Kennedy effectively serve as evidence that exonerates Oswald in the case, especially the shirt since these were tailored."

Well, not exactly.  It destroys the WR's story that Oswald, or anybody, was the lone shooter from the 6th floor murdering Kennedy.  It doesn't prove Oswald wasn't one of the shooters from there. I think you have acknowledged that, haven't you, Cliff?

But there is voluminous other evidence to establish that.

Cairns' work is a gold mine.

 

Good enough!  The clothing evidence proves that JFK wasn’t shot in the back with a 6.5mm FMJ round, which counterfeits the official scenario.

All right, Cory, we’re on!

IF one of the sixty reasons is the fact that the bullet holes in JFK’s clothes are too low to associate with his throat wound — I’m buying Cory Santos a beer and a brat at a Vegas A’s game.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You know, you can tell the difference between amateurs, cranks and serious researchers in the JFKA, and probably most other serious endeavors too. 

Serious people tell you what they don't know, and also when evidence is hearsay, or sketchy. 

A researcher like Larry Hancock constantly counsels the reader on the limitations of the evidence at hand, and is circumspect in his findings. Jeff Morley, James DiEugenio, Tink Thompson and a few others fall into this category.

They routinely ignore the extant physical evidence — bullet defects in the clothes.  Can’t take such incompetence seriously.

I give Larry a pass.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Others make outlandish claims, with widening nets of hundreds of suspects, based on the flimsiest shards of "evidence" or even secret documents unavailable for review by the public. 

Getting a lecture on outlandish claims from Ben Cole!  Imagine that.

Can you imagine a shooter intentionally loading an under-charged round, hitting JFK in the back around Z190 with shallow penetration, to which JFK responded by balling his fists in front of his throat, and remaining mute and still for six seconds.

Did any witnesses report the early back shot?  No.  Did JFK arch his back in pain?  No.  Warn the others of the attack?  No.  Duck out of the way?  No.

Have all the pet theories you want, Ben, but spare us the lectures on “serious” research.

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

I saw them on a tour where they had Leif Garrett on vocals. 

2 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

Oh man,an old co-worker of mine won tickets on the radio to see the Melvins in Fresno this year and asked me if I wanted to go.I said sure,it's another concert under my belt.

Strange birds.

I have no idea if you are being sarcastic or not.

 

Not at all.  The Melvins belong on that KNAC poster.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvins

I saw them in 1990 in a bar on skid row in San Francisco.  Tight band.  Shirley Temple’s kid Lori Black on bass.  A couple dozen people there.  My kind of show!

My list of the most over-rated bands finds GNR and Pearl Jam at the top, with U2, REM, and the Police in another category of bad (I can’t stand whiny vocals unless they’re in the Beastie Boys).

8 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Only omissions I can see are Venom, Nine Inch Nails and D.R.I.

Body Count, the Melvins and Neurosis.

Just say’n...

On 11/24/2023 at 12:47 AM, Pete Mellor said:

A throat wound which wasn't investigated at Bethesda on instructions from the brass in the gallery.  Which is why we have this procrastination today, but you're probably right.

Pete, on further review I have to challenge your “probably.”

The head shot(s) was/were too high to account for the damage at T1, the back wound too low.

That leaves the throat shot.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:40 PM, Matt Allison said:

I also really wish these computer animations would be used to prove/disprove other locations in DP that are theorized to be sniper positions. All they ever show is the 6th floor window. The tech is ripe to be utilized for something beyond that.

I really wish these computer animations would use the T3 back wound as the point of entry.  But I get it — T3 is obviously too low for the SBT, rendering the entire exercise moot, meaningless.

Can’t have that now, can we?

4 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

I was so close to Lemmy that,I could have played his bass guitar.There was a promotional type tribute thingy to radio station 105.5 KNAC in Long Beach Los Angeles at the California Dreams night club in Anaheim.

105.5 KNAC was the loudest & proudest station in the nation & Motorhead played for $1.05 cents.You read that right.We seen Motorhead for one dollar and five cents.

There was absolutely no barriers in between the band and the audience.I was literally 2 feet away.

That was always a punk rock thing — no barriers between band and audience.  We were all part of the show.

4 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

No other station had the b*lls to play the metal that KNAC did back in 1986 to 1995.

I also seen them 2 more times in 1992 when they opened up for Metallica & Guns N Roses in LA at the Coliseum & then the next week at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena.

 

Only omissions I can see are Venom, Nine Inch Nails and D.R.I.